[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Vanyali]

True, true. But that seems like such a.. non-fix. Because then it gets nerfed at the start of the next expansion, then buffed again, then nerfed again.. I hate the expansion cycle nerf-buff so, so much. Much rather see it placed somewhere with other scaling talents as that'd fix it all together.

If it's as viable as Nemesis I could see myself going for it rather than Momentum on some fights; Momentum is fun, but there's always going to be those fights where you don't want to be the crackhead rabbit karooming around spreading debuffs and walking in fire.

And aaargh yet another reason to try to learn C++ so I can try to sim things beyond excel sheets @_@

[ChakanDH]

I'm pretty sure Felblade beats out First Blood, and will even more so as our gear scales. First Blood is Fury-negative, and the more crit and mastery we get, the less of a DPS increase it is over Chaos Strike (until eventually, it's not. Napkin math says that should be somewhere around 48% crit with 20% mastery, or 40% crit with 30% mastery).

Felblade, on the other hand, is Fury-positive, so while it doesn't benefit from Mastery or Crit the way Chaos Strike does, it provides an additional 30 Fury worth of Chaos Strikes. That means that the higher our crit and mastery becomes, the better Felblade becomes, while the worse First Blood becomes.

Basically, Felblade is probably better now, and even if it isn't yet, it definitely will be as we gear up.

That said, I too resist going Momentum build, and am holding significant hope that they'll balance it such that running Fel Eruption or Nemesis is within a justifiable margin of DPS.

I'm no theory crafter, but I'm hoping it plays out that death sweep doesn't get the chop that annihilation did and with meta now having a haste buff effect it will bring the CD on DS to under 5 secs. Getting in two DS during a demonic activation, not to mention how many more can be fit in during a proper meta window, would surely increase its worth.

Will fury generation be much of an issue at higher gear levels? I cant help think that once crit is high enough that we will be getting so many refunds from chaos strikes that the 30 generated from fel blade will be somewhat wasted?

[Kuze]

Is anyone else of the mindset that they are being very reserved with this spec? Probably overly reserved? No I'm not talking about numbers, I mean mechanically speaking

[Myta]

Is anyone else of the mindset that they are being very reserved with this spec? Probably overly reserved? No I'm not talking about numbers, I mean mechanically speaking

I don't want what happened with Monks spec to end up happening with Demon Hunter. Where they were very quick to over nerf the class when it's out of balance, driving players off the class. You don't have to have it be as OP as DKs were, but if it doesn't go live as a strong option it will fall in representation like Monks right now.

[Kaedis]

Will fury generation be much of an issue at higher gear levels? I cant help think that once crit is high enough that we will be getting so many refunds from chaos strikes that the 30 generated from fel blade will be somewhat wasted?

Not really. Felblade hits immensely harder than Demon's Bite (roughly twice as hard, once armor is accounted for), and generates 20% more Fury, on average. We're unlikely to hit the point where we never use Demon's Bite, and every Demon's Bite replaced by a Felblade is a solid DPS increase. The flipside is not necessarily true, every Chaos Strike replaced by a Blade Dance isn't necessarily a DPS gain.

I'm no theory crafter, but I'm hoping it plays out that death sweep doesn't get the chop that annihilation did and with meta now having a haste buff effect it will bring the CD on DS to under 5 secs. Getting in two DS during a demonic activation, not to mention how many more can be fit in during a proper meta window, would surely increase its worth.

Well, getting in two would only really be assured if Eye Beam remains being optimal to clip. Still, that threshold would certainly make it more valuable. It'd be tough to hit, though, outside of Lust. Even assuming 50% haste from Meta (I suspect it'll be closer to 30%), you'd need nearly 11000 haste rating to hit a 5.0s CD. At those gear levels, it's almost guaranteed that Chaos Strike will have outscaled Blade Dance, which means that while you gain a second Death Sweep during Demonic, you don't gain any benefit at all from First Blood outside of Meta. And that's still assuming that Blade Dance doesn't get the nerf bat like Annihilation did, which I frankly doubt.

But really, all of this still hinges on the most fundamental issue with DHs: Chaos Strike's fury refund. It makes CS scale better than any other ability we have, which means that it's utterly guaranteed that there exists a gear level where our entire rotation is nothing but Chaos Strike with occasional generators.

[BiggestNoob]

First Blood affects Death Sweep right? Death Sweep is still 100% stronger than BD right now, and both scale with that trait by 10% per target in 8 yards. With the haste buff from Meta in the next build it'll be usable quite a few times in meta.

I need to do the math but it seems like that could be a huge amount of damage if we have the fury to do it.

Also, fury generation is made more potent by crit refunds up to a point, when we routinely cap fury there's little value in fury generation, so something like Felblade may not be as good if Appetite or Blades can sustain all the fury you need.

[Vanyali]

That's actually something i've been worried about... we are, inevitably, going to get to the point where a Dblades rotation (with momentum or nemesis, whichever it may be) of nothing but Chaos Strike, Chaos Strike, and oh, more Chaos Strike.

[Kaedis]

First Blood affects Death Sweep right? Death Sweep is still 100% stronger than BD right now, and both scale with that trait by 10% per target in 8 yards. With the haste buff from Meta in the next build it'll be usable quite a few times in meta.

I need to do the math but it seems like that could be a huge amount of damage if we have the fury to do it.

Also, fury generation is made more potent by crit refunds up to a point, when we routinely cap fury there's little value in fury generation, so something like Felblade may not be as good if Appetite or Blades can sustain all the fury you need.

My point is, we'll always have a fury deficit at reasonable gear levels. Even at 50% crit, CS still has an effective average cost of 20 Fury. Spamming Chaos Strike alone at that point is -800 Fury per minute, before haste. With 15% haste (4875 rating), it's -920. None of the talents can provide even a quarter of that. DA is, at most, +120 per minute (likely less, since it's not a 100% proc chance when off ICD). Prepared is now +160 per minute. Fel Mastery +150. So even with Prepared plus Fel Mastery, you're still not even at half of that deficit, and that's at 50 percent crit (12,250 crit rating)!

So ya, we're always going to be casting Demon's Bite, which means there will always be value in replacing some of those DB casts with Felblade, and that's not even accounting for the oh-shit-get-back-in-range benefit of its charge. There will not always be value in replacing CS with BD, and while it's unlikely we'd hit the gear level needed for Death Sweep to outclass Annihilation (assuming Death Sweep doesn't get the same nerf bat Annihilation just got, which I suspect it will), if the only benefit of that talent is during meta, the overall benefit of it is going to be rather limited compared to Felblade.

[Forde]

Hm. Demon Reborn doesn't currently reset all 5 stacks of Fel Barrage. Anyone know if this is intended?

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Hm. Demon Reborn doesn't currently reset all 5 stacks of Fel Barrage. Anyone know if this is intended?

On a similar note, has anyone documented which abilities generate charges of Fel Barrage?

[TheLimonTree]

Doesn't seem anyone mentioned this, there were a few traits that were moved on the right side. To be specific getting to illidari knowledge requires demon speed, and demon rage requires contained fury

http://imgur.com/y4eF4Sh

[Qlix]

So I "acquired" beta access and have some questions and observations -

1. I thought the assumption was to be able to VR out and into an Eye Beam, but I am always out of range when I VR if the target is stationary - Should I be trying to kill the VR jump midway to stay in range for the EB?

2. Fel Rush works completely different than I expected. Strafe/Rush is easy peasy and tends to keep you in range better. No weird latency issues for me. I will definitely agree there needs to be a Pandemic mechanic in place for Momentum - It just feels so right to VR out and Fel Rush.

3. The blindfold/horn bugs are bad. Reallllly bad lol.

4. Double Jump into Glide off of a mount....... how? What the heck am i missing here?

5. Meta changing the camera angle to where I can pretty much no longer see my character model unless I zoom all the way out. WTF is this madness?

6. After talking to Khadgar in Dalaran and watching him talk to the council I couldnt find any follow-up quests other than an invasion mission - did I miss something?

7. Tattoo colors - Are they placeholders in beta? They dont match the color options on the wowhead dressing room. Is the DR wrong?


All in all, I only got to lvl 102 in the short time I played but my god I love it. Back in BC/Wrath I mained Resto Druid and the entire draw of that spec for me was being mobile. Im a habitual spacebar spammer for no other reason than to hit the spacebar and jump. HURT BAD when I had to go marksman where jumping killed Sniper Training. DH has that feel to it. Move all over the place do what you want and get to places quickly and efficiently. Love it.

[Dimzum]

Doesn't seem anyone mentioned this, there were a few traits that were moved on the right side. To be specific getting to illidari knowledge requires demon speed, and demon rage requires contained fury

http://imgur.com/y4eF4Sh

It was in the last build. Actually a good thing with the chaos strike crit damage bonus.

[zorkesh]

So I "acquired" beta access and have some questions and observations -

1. I thought the assumption was to be able to VR out and into an Eye Beam, but I am always out of range when I VR if the target is stationary - Should I be trying to kill the VR jump midway to stay in range for the EB?

2. Fel Rush works completely different than I expected. Strafe/Rush is easy peasy and tends to keep you in range better. No weird latency issues for me. I will definitely agree there needs to be a Pandemic mechanic in place for Momentum - It just feels so right to VR out and Fel Rush.

3. The blindfold/horn bugs are bad. Reallllly bad lol.

4. Double Jump into Glide off of a mount....... how? What the heck am i missing here?

5. Meta changing the camera angle to where I can pretty much no longer see my character model unless I zoom all the way out. WTF is this madness?

6. After talking to Khadgar in Dalaran and watching him talk to the council I couldnt find any follow-up quests other than an invasion mission - did I miss something?

7. Tattoo colors - Are they placeholders in beta? They dont match the color options on the wowhead dressing room. Is the DR wrong?

1. Yes, kill VR jump.
5. It's a beta =) Bugzzzz
6. What's the name of a realm? "Demon Invasions"?

[Qlix]

1. Yes, kill VR jump.
5. It's a beta =) Bugzzzz
6. What's the name of a realm? "Demon Invasions"?

5. Yes I know - just an observation
6. Nope - was the leveling realm 1 or whatever

[jayinjersey]

I believe the easiest solution to #1 was to take a step or two forward before you VR




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Unrelated: First Blood vs FelBlade


What if First Blood removed the Fury cost of Blade Dance?

Would that make it closer to FelBlade in usefulness/power?

[Vanyali]

So I "acquired" beta access and have some questions and observations -

1. I thought the assumption was to be able to VR out and into an Eye Beam, but I am always out of range when I VR if the target is stationary - Should I be trying to kill the VR jump midway to stay in range for the EB?

2. Fel Rush works completely different than I expected. Strafe/Rush is easy peasy and tends to keep you in range better. No weird latency issues for me. I will definitely agree there needs to be a Pandemic mechanic in place for Momentum - It just feels so right to VR out and Fel Rush.

3. The blindfold/horn bugs are bad. Reallllly bad lol.

4. Double Jump into Glide off of a mount....... how? What the heck am i missing here?

5. Meta changing the camera angle to where I can pretty much no longer see my character model unless I zoom all the way out. WTF is this madness?

6. After talking to Khadgar in Dalaran and watching him talk to the council I couldnt find any follow-up quests other than an invasion mission - did I miss something?

7. Tattoo colors - Are they placeholders in beta? They dont match the color options on the wowhead dressing room. Is the DR wrong?


All in all, I only got to lvl 102 in the short time I played but my god I love it. Back in BC/Wrath I mained Resto Druid and the entire draw of that spec for me was being mobile. Im a habitual spacebar spammer for no other reason than to hit the spacebar and jump. HURT BAD when I had to go marksman where jumping killed Sniper Training. DH has that feel to it. Move all over the place do what you want and get to places quickly and efficiently. Love it.

1. Move forward a few steps. Don't listen to "kill VR"; the cancel doesn't work anymore, and it screws with momentum anyway.

4. You cannot. Hit FR to dismount, then jump and glide.

5. Bug.

6. Bran should be behind you with a quest.

7. They should be fine; I just created one with all the tats. DR likely wrong.

[Sangomah]

My pull is usually:

1: Fel Rush in
2: Build 60 Fury
3: Fel rush through
4: Eye beam
5: VR + FB
5 Annhi spam.

This is with Chaos CLeave talent. YOu can do it earlier if you got the Fel Rush talent.
Also do not have a single point in Contained Fury yet.

[Zyky]

Sims say otherwise with how mastery scales. It doesn't scale well, at all, so the amount of mastery you'd need is phenomenal and the amount you'd lose due to lower crit returns compounds the issue.

Sims mean nothing atm, tuning isn't done for numbers. Actual scaling shows that Mastery scales slightly better than crit numerically. 3564 mastery = 10.18% and 1831 crit = 5.23%. So doubling the crit would put you at 3662 for 10.46% With a full artifact with Anguish, Rage, and Inner Demons, the amount of skills that do raw chaos damage to get a boost from the mastery is going to over put the value of crit, especially now that Eye Beam always crits.

[Sangomah]

I think due to Contained Fury, meaning you can easier get a full set of globals on Annhilation in your Demonic window, also further emphasize the Mastery stat, but that just be me.

I'm at 44% crit, and I still can't get a full set of GLobals on Annhilation during the Demo window, though I do not have any points in Contained Fury. As Mastery gets stronger with Contained Fury, I do think you need LESS crit with 3 ppoints in it, simply because you are not that dependant on Fury regen.

What is the DR for crit? Is there any?