[BETA] Destruction Warlock Discussion

[Deleted]

Depends how you want to level. If you're rounding stuff up to AoE down, especially as a group, I'd take Cataclysm. If you're going solo and doing focused single target burns, Channel Demonfire plus Shadowburn might be a good choice.

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Basic math?

Shadowburn does 340% spellpower damage, so two does 680%, with a chance for 1020% or even 1360% if you get one or two crits. For the same Soul Shard cost a Chaos Bolt does 360% damage. Only it's always a crit, so that's actually 720% damage. Higher than two Shadowburns, but the Shadowburns have a decent chance to crit and do more, right? Wrong.

First of all, Chaos Bolt gets a damage buff from your Crit chance, which is a big boost. Then we start piling on the damage buffs from your artifact traits. Chaotic Instability adds 7.5% damage to Chaos Bolt. Flames of the Pit is another 4% damage, since Chaos Bolt is semi-chaos damage and counts as fire. Soulsnatcher has a chance to refund Soul Shards from Chaos Bolt, but not from a Shadowburn. On top of those, you'll eventually have legendary items like Magistrike Restraints or Feretory of Souls that (again) benefit Chaos Bolt and not Shadowburn.

I'm not saying Shadowburn is useless. Far from it. But its strength is in the utility effects, like being instant cast and getting a bonus SS on a kill. For pure DPS numbers it's always going to be a loss.

I mostly agree, but I decided to go for the immolate buffing traits though, since they are rather massive, and yield more shards as long as you keep immolate up, which you always should anyway.

I'm not exactly arguing that chaos bolt isn't going to do more damage in a tank and spank fight, I'd just like some examples from warlocks who can prove they are performing well with it. Since what you lose when you go chaos bolt is: Tons of mobility, shards on kill (2 shards from a 1 cost spell is great, and with havoc you often get "free" shards), and you don't need to pick any chaos bolt specific talents.

Obviously legendaries will change things up a lot, but I haven't been able to get them yet, and if they are required to make chaos bolt "work", then that could explain why I haven't felt great about using chaos bolt.

[effs]

Any highend destro locks who'd care to tell me why I should use Chaos Bolt over Shadowburn? This is mostly from the perspective of wanting to be able to do other things than single target DPS, as well as taking Wreak Havoc since switching target while burning down a boss is simply too good to pass for me.

Chaos bolt benefits from artifact traits, crit scaling and auto crit. Shadowburn doesn't.

[Deleted]

Chaos bolt benefits from artifact traits, crit scaling and auto crit. Shadowburn doesn't.

Yes, that is stating the obvious. Shadowburn allows you to run as much as you like while doing damage, it generates a ton of shards in many situations, it opens up for different talents, and it benefits from immolate crit artifact trait. So, my question remains, is it worth gimping yourself entirely mobilitywise, to do some amount of extra damage in specific situations? And how much extra damage do you do? Can you compete with enhancement shammies, unholy deathknights and fire mages? And when I say compete with those classes, I'm talking about the good ones. The ones who do 500k+ sustained DPS single target damage.

[Dastey]

Depends how you want to level. If you're rounding stuff up to AoE down, especially as a group, I'd take Cataclysm. If you're going solo and doing focused single target burns, Channel Demonfire plus Shadowburn might be a good choice.

We will probably not be grouping up mobs to aoe. Sure that will happen once in a while but generally that probably won't be the case. But I suppose Cataclysm might be the better option anyways, since the mana component will be pretty useless, and the chaos bolts can generally be replaced by shadowburns due to the utility of regenning soul shards.

However Channel Demonfire. Is that really worthwhile since it requires immolate on the target? Wouldn't the chance to reimburse soul shards be better? Or is the damage still really high that it's just great due to traveling time (and hence CD reset) between mobs?

[Deleted]

We will probably not be grouping up mobs to aoe. Sure that will happen once in a while but generally that probably won't be the case. But I suppose Cataclysm might be the better option anyways, since the mana component will be pretty useless, and the chaos bolts can generally be replaced by shadowburns due to the utility of regenning soul shards.

However Channel Demonfire. Is that really worthwhile since it requires immolate on the target? Wouldn't the chance to reimburse soul shards be better? Or is the damage still really high that it's just great due to traveling time (and hence CD reset) between mobs?

I'd recommend wreak havoc. As long as there are at least 2 targets, wreak havoc always wins. Don't underestimate the ability to reapply havoc as needed. Channel demonfire is basically 1 free chaos bolt every 15 sec (base), that doesn't benefit from any of the things that makes chaos bolt worth using. And a 20% chance to not spend soul shards is unreliable, whereas wreak havoc just needs two targets to benefit fully. And you can do things to make sure there are two targets, you can't do anything to make soul conduit proc more or less than 20%.

Edit: Also, it is great having an instant cast spell with no cooldown to pull mobs with.

[Kirroth]

However Channel Demonfire. Is that really worthwhile since it requires immolate on the target? Wouldn't the chance to reimburse soul shards be better? Or is the damage still really high that it's just great due to traveling time (and hence CD reset) between mobs?

More worthwhile solo than in a group, I'd guess. At current tuning it's about a Chaos Bolt's worth of damage for no SS cost on a 15s cooldown. Short cooldowns like that are valuable when you're spending a decent amount of time running between different mobs. Yes, there are artifact traits and such it won't benefit from, but you're not going to have those while leveling to 110.

It's also going to depend on both mob tuning and your gear level relative to it. For example: Chaos Bolt opener that triggers Eradication, Immo, Conflag, Demonfire, Shadowburn. That's a SS neutral sequence using two short cooldowns, so you can repeat it pretty often. Is that massive overkill? Then you'll probably want to go Soul Conduit and shorten it to Chaos Bolt, Conflag, Shadowburn. Is even that overkill? Then maybe you want to keep Demonfire so you can alternate between using Chaos Bolt and killing something just Immo, Demonfire, Shadowburn.

Oh, and here's another stray thought. I don't recall seeing anyone post about testing for the interactions between Demonfire and the new GoSac. If GoSac can only trigger once per spell, it's nothing special. But if each of Demonfire's 15 bolts has an individual proc chance, and you can get multiple GoSac procs off a single channel? That's a synergy worth writing home about.

[Deleted]

More worthwhile solo than in a group, I'd guess. At current tuning it's about a Chaos Bolt's worth of damage for no SS cost on a 15s cooldown. Short cooldowns like that are valuable when you're spending a decent amount of time running between different mobs. Yes, there are artifact traits and such it won't benefit from, but you're not going to have those while leveling to 110.

It's also going to depend on both mob tuning and your gear level relative to it. For example: Chaos Bolt opener that triggers Eradication, Immo, Conflag, Demonfire, Shadowburn. That's a SS neutral sequence using two short cooldowns, so you can repeat it pretty often. Is that massive overkill? Then you'll probably want to go Soul Conduit and shorten it to Chaos Bolt, Conflag, Shadowburn. Is even that overkill? Then maybe you want to keep Demonfire so you can alternate between using Chaos Bolt and killing something just Immo, Demonfire, Shadowburn.

Oh, and here's another stray thought. I don't recall seeing anyone post about testing for the interactions between Demonfire and the new GoSac. If GoSac can only trigger once per spell, it's nothing special. But if each of Demonfire's 15 bolts has an individual proc chance, and you can get multiple GoSac procs off a single channel? That's a synergy worth writing home about.

Gonna go test demonfire + grimsac now, since I've also wondered about that. Will update this post with results.

Edit: Doesn't seem to proc more than once or twice, which makes it similar to casting any other nuke. No special synergy to be found as far as I can see.

[Gaidax]

GoSac probably either has ICD or RPPM based.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Can you compete with enhancement shammies, unholy deathknights and fire mages? And when I say compete with those classes, I'm talking about the good ones. The ones who do 500k+ sustained DPS single target damage.

Tuning still in progress, numbers compared to other classes are fairly meaningless.

[bio347]

I'm not exactly arguing that chaos bolt isn't going to do more damage in a tank and spank fight, I'd just like some examples from warlocks who can prove they are performing well with it. Since what you lose when you go chaos bolt is: Tons of mobility, shards on kill (2 shards from a 1 cost spell is great, and with havoc you often get "free" shards), and you don't need to pick any chaos bolt specific talents.

Chaos Bolt isn't more damage "in a tank and spank fight", that makes no sense. The damage a spell does doesn't care about how much movement you're doing. Outside of Shadowburn's niche (killing blows granting shards), Chaos Bolt is more damage than Shadowburn. Period.

You can cast SB while moving, sure, but because it's a damage loss per shard spent you don't ever want to do that unless you're shard-capped. And, of course, a good player will probably do their best to not be shard-capped when they know movement will happen, so that they don't have to face wasting or under-utilizing resources.

If you're talking about solo play, sure, fine, whatever. SB is fine because you'll always be landing killing blows, and if you want to run around instead of standing for the CBs and get the CB artifact talents last, nobody's gonna stop you.

[Deleted]

Chaos Bolt isn't more damage "in a tank and spank fight", that makes no sense. The damage a spell does doesn't care about how much movement you're doing. Outside of Shadowburn's niche (killing blows granting shards), Chaos Bolt is more damage than Shadowburn. Period.

You can cast SB while moving, sure, but because it's a damage loss per shard spent you don't ever want to do that unless you're shard-capped. And, of course, a good player will probably do their best to not be shard-capped when they know movement will happen, so that they don't have to face wasting or under-utilizing resources.

If you're talking about solo play, sure, fine, whatever. SB is fine because you'll always be landing killing blows, and if you want to run around instead of standing for the CBs and get the CB artifact talents last, nobody's gonna stop you.

Yes, but how much more, and in which situations are you feeling screwed when using chaos bolt. God, it is like you people don't even read what I'm writing. I'll try again:

is it worth gimping yourself entirely mobilitywise, to do some amount of extra damage in specific situations? And how much extra damage do you do?

It isn't really helpful to the discussion when you keep mentioning the good parts about chaos bolt while ignoring the bad parts, as well as ignoring the good parts about shadowburn (Way more shards in certain situations that happen to occur extremely often in Legion).

So, less guesswork and more concrete examples please. I'm asking for someone who is playing beta right now and who is using chaos bolt to tell me how their experience with it is, as mine has been less than stellar. I'm not looking for people who can say "Well chaos bolt has all these modifiers, so it must be better". I can read too, thanks.

[Kirroth]

Gonna go test demonfire + grimsac now, since I've also wondered about that. Will update this post with results.

Edit: Doesn't seem to proc more than once or twice, which makes it similar to casting any other nuke. No special synergy to be found as far as I can see.

I dunno, that's not nothing. I mean, in the same time span you'd being casting a CB or two Incins, so reliably getting a proc or more than one proc per cast is worthwhile data. Of course...

GoSac probably either has ICD or RPPM based.

is the big question. Proper testing isn't just using Demonfire on cooldown and counting the procs. You'd have to sustain your rotation on the dummy for a few minutes, first with Demonfire and then without, to see if Demonfire doesn't just have a high proc rate due to the number of attacks but increases your average number of PPM.

It very likely doesn't, because the Devs are a lot smarter about not letting proc talents be gamed with lots of fast attacks these days. But that's what Beta testing is for.

[Deleted]

Tuning still in progress, numbers compared to other classes are fairly meaningless.

Destruction has access to permanent havoc, and so far the other 100 talents are not nearly enough to boost sustained single target damage as much as permanent havoc can boost two target damage. My point? Are we going to be gimped single target to compensate for stronger dual target dps, or not? My current experience has been that we can't compete with single target DPS no matter what talents are picked, with similar ilvl and such. That is why I'm asking for the experiences of other warlocks that are playing in the beta. Especially regarding using chaos bolt, since I just haven't seen it shine due to so many encounters having a lot of movement and adds which is good for shadowburn.

[bio347]

FWIW, the wowhead tooltip info for Demonic Power puts it at 20+haste RPPM. So frequency of attacks shouldn't increase the number of procs unless you're throwing out damage events so rarely that you just wouldn't be able to proc it that many times per minute.

is it worth gimping yourself entirely mobilitywise, to do some amount of extra damage in specific situations? And how much extra damage do you do?

Playing DPS is all about maximizing your damage. So... yes. And, to reiterate, Chaos Bolt does more damage than Shadowburn in every situation EXCEPT when SB gets its shard regen for a kill. This is not "specific situations". CB is better in the large majority of situations.

[Deleted]

FWIW, the wowhead tooltip info for Demonic Power puts it at 20+haste RPPM. So frequency of attacks shouldn't increase the number of procs unless you're throwing out damage events so rarely that you just wouldn't be able to proc it that many times per minute.


Playing DPS is all about maximizing your damage. So... yes. And, to reiterate, Chaos Bolt does more damage than Shadowburn in every situation EXCEPT when SB gets its shard regen for a kill. This is not "specific situations". CB is better in the large majority of situations.

And you do how much damage while running around? I mean, are you even in the beta? There are tons of encounters with a lot of movement and adds that can be shadowburned. So, either you are not in beta, which makes all you say speculation, or you are in beta, in which case I'd like you to provide some numbers so that I have something to compare my numbers with.

Edit: Also, my Demonic Power testing pretty much gave me 20+haste RPPM, which means no special synergy with Channel Demonfire.

Edit2: It is easy to say chaos bolt > shadowburn based on numbers, but I'm asking for actual experience, since my experience has not been chaos bolt > shadowburn. It could be mastery related. More casts = less risk of mastery rolling consistently low on your main source of damage. Besides the obvious advantages when it comes to adds and movement.

[bio347]

I don't have beta access, no. OTOH, you don't need beta access to look at the math and say that unless you're spending really significant amounts of time at a dead run, CB is better. I don't have any anecdotes to give you, but it's important to remember that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

[Deleted]

I don't have beta access, no. OTOH, you don't need beta access to look at the math and say that unless you're spending really significant amounts of time at a dead run, CB is better. I don't have any anecdotes to give you, but it's important to remember that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

So, you do more damage on single target bossfights with low movement requirements. What about trash DPS? What about boss fights with adds? What about any other situation, than the one that favors chaos bolt, which is pretty much a single target fight with no / low movement and no adds? You can't change talents on the fly, and choosing chaos bolt certainly lowers your efficiency in all other cases.

Which is exactly why I asked for someone with actual experience. Speculation doesn't help at all. Yes, I can also look at artifact traits, and yes, 720% is more than 680%, I can see that as well. But that is not the question here, now, is it. You claim with absolute certainty that chaos bolt must be better than shadowburn, yet you have nothing to base that on. The game is a bit more complex than a dummy fight, and there are more variables than just the modifiers and base damage values.

Edit: Next time you want to argue something, maybe don't assume the other person is a complete retard who doesn't understand what numbers are. Which is a bit ironic since you say "you don't need beta access to look at the math". What math is that? 680<720? Nice job, that doesn't account for anything whatsoever. So, do the math then:

Damage per cast time.
Shard generation (Single target + multi target + if adds are present).
Damage while moving + Damage while not moving.
Artifact traits, chaos bolt focus vs immolate focus (You can't have it all for a long time, so you have to take that into account as well).
Soul Conduit vs Wreak Havoc (Depending on single / multitarget fight).
Cataclysm vs Reverse Entropy.

I'll be waiting. Since it is just math, should be easy.

[Kirroth]

Look, it's really a lot simpler than you're trying to make it. You're familiar with DPET I hope? Well, let's talk DPSS (damage per soul shard).

Which spell has a higher DPSS? Chaos Bolt, by a significant margin. Is there an opportunity cost to casting Shadowburn? Yes, you spent Soul Shards on it that you could have spent on Chaos Bolt for higher value if you'd waited. Are there times when you'll need the damage NOW and waiting until you can stop moving or complete a long cast spell isn't possible? Yes, which is why Shadowburn is a useful spell to have on your bar. Are you still usually better off casting a Conflag, or even casting nothing, and saving your SS for a Chaos Bolt? Yes, without question.

[Deleted]

Look, it's really a lot simpler than you're trying to make it. You're familiar with DPET I hope? Well, let's talk DPSS (damage per soul shard).

Which spell has a higher DPSS? Chaos Bolt, by a significant margin. Is there an opportunity cost to casting Shadowburn? Yes, you spent Soul Shards on it that you could have spent on Chaos Bolt for higher value if you'd waited. Are there times when you'll need the damage NOW and waiting until you can stop moving or complete a long cast spell isn't possible? Yes, which is why Shadowburn is a useful spell to have on your bar. Are you still usually better off casting a Conflag, or even casting nothing, and saving your SS for a Chaos Bolt? Yes, without question.

But you won't have shadowburn on your bar if you are using backdraft, which you should if you plan on using chaos bolt.

Also, what is the DPSS of each spell? There are quite a lot of modifiers to that, and increasing the DPSS of one, reduces the amount of shards you generate through immolate (Because you won't have all artifact traits until quite a while into the expansion, and I'm concerned about the part before you get fully geared and all artifact traits).

So, please elaborate.

[Kirroth]

But you won't have shadowburn on your bar if you are using backdraft, which you should if you plan on using chaos bolt.

I listed a bunch of the various traits and legendary items that will benefit Chaos Bolt back in post #2243. AFAIK there are none at all for Shadowburn, both because it's a talent and because it's shadow damage. If you'd like to try and cite some counter-examples, feel free. Until then, you're the one making unsubstantiated claims, not us.

You don't take Shadowburn as a rotational replacement for Chaos Bolt. You take it for the on-kill SS gain and for the utility of a powerful instant cast spell for those moments when that utility outweighs the damage lost. This is both math and design. Any time Shadowburn is higher DPSS than Chaos Bolt the Devs will change the numbers so that stops being the case. Which is what they already did, if you look back over the history of the Alpha.