LFR: Success or Failure?

[purebalance]

For what LFR was intended for it succeeded but for the types of player and player behavior it sadly fostered. It failed. So it has good points and bad points.

LFR has created the most awful sense of entitlement in the community than I have ever seen. I mean look at the LFR supporters in this thread alone and the sheer entitlement they have is astounding. For example the "I need tier sets" for what? "to get stronger" for what? "Because I deserve it"

[A dot Ham]

1) LFR is part of a problem with current wow. The idea that everything can be completed without failing anything on a never lose mode is a real problem for wow

2) Without excessively powerful gear lfr dies. It is pretty proven at this point even with what it offered in highmaul and BRF compared to anything else it still wasn't considered good enough

3) That isn't a good thing. Supplying them with content for their skill level is what the goal should be. If you don't have time for a mmo the mmo shouldn't be gutted to suit you

4)Yet it was the main concern of the point. The reason why wow didn't work well in your example was because the realm was low pop.

5) Still was a common factor throughout wow till arguably late cata. You are right though seeing content isn't a reward. It isn't even all that fun. TBC was amazing design because players had content to enjoy up to and including the last raid. They where not put into a pretend raid where nothing could hurt them and they would be buffed till they won it is why lfr is such a hollow and empty experience. As for your bit about gear WoD has proven that beyond a shadow of the doubt it isn't gear that stops most players from advancing.

6)WoD in beta felt much more like burning crusades then it did to mist of panda. Dungeons were more on par with what CMs where at launch and had trash packs in some cases removed from them on live. The game in beta was actually the most changed I have ever seen when it hit live to the point of the experience was barely recognizable.

7) There isn't really more competition though most other mmos are in a nose dive and never got close enough to be considered competition in reality there is what... final fantasy? Blizzard should be marketing to a audience not trying to capture all audiences.

1) Clearly my relevant data slap had no effect... not really sure how else to make you see that at this point. YOU DON'T HAVE THE DATA TO BACK THAT CLAIM.

2) Without LFR WoW dies, the very fact that LFR rewarded sub par performing gear, with generic looks and people left in droves speaks to that. Blizzard tends to agree as they are returning to the MoP model regarding LFR.

3) Nobody EVER asked for LFR. Blizzard responded to a need in an attempt to capitalize on leaving players... it paid off. Once again... SKILL is not, nor has it ever, been a factor to raiding and seeing content. Ever. Get out of your delusional box and step back into reality. Also raid availability does not equate to skill either... seriously what are you even talking about? There is content available to players and their given skill level (see Normal, Heroic, Mythic) but even most of those tend to be more about whether your are geared appropriately for the content.

4) Wrong again. My point was the shift in player participation, the content they are currently doing. My comments regarding low server pop were preemptively combating your argument that somehow 9/10 of the players participating in content beyond the top tier somehow makes the world feel alive, and it actually does the opposite. Reading comprehension... I know that's not a specific school curriculum but it is definitely an expected learning outcome.

5)If a players end experience is LFR and they are satisfied with that good for them. If you are here to bitch about LFR being end game content and you claim to have the skill and gear necessary to play beyond LFR... and you don't well then that is on you my friend. No one else.

6) Honestly the first I have ever heard that. I am not immediately disregarding it, but that seems to be based heavily on perception.

7) It doesn't have to be better than WoW to be competition. It doesn't have to have more lifetime subs than WoW did or does. The only thing that has to happen is people stop playing WoW, to play the other mmos. If all you did was create a character in that other mmo... it competed, not well, but it competed. But again... its not JUST mmos that compete with your time, energy, money you could be spending playing WoW... quite literally everything you do in your free time is competition.

[rmack]

LFR has created the most awful sense of entitlement in the community than I have ever seen. I mean look at the LFR supporters in this thread alone and the sheer entitlement they have is astounding. For example the "I need tier sets" for what? "to get stronger" for what? "Because I deserve it"

Every MMO has a huge amount of entitled players who want scalable end game content (EQ started the downward spiral of cratering to the masses even before WoW was released, if anything WoW is still copying the EQ model to a T). The real questions is did it affect your core group of friends into not wanting to commit time to pre-made raiding because LFR was enough for them.

[A dot Ham]

I both full clear mythic and have elite pvp gear...

I already have things other won't...

I doubt that. Real mythic raiders don't give a fuck what the plebeians do or don't do in LFR as it has not effect on them... you on the other hand seem to be truly bothered by it... go figure.

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Who said you were on ignore. You are one of my favorite people to laugh at every day.

Cheers mate.

Like I said... I love my followers. Might wanna ease up though, coming on a little strong... I don't want to have to call you out for stalking.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

1) Clearly my relevant data slap had no effect... not really sure how else to make you see that at this point. YOU DON'T HAVE THE DATA TO BACK THAT CLAIM.

You have no data to counter the claim. You pretty much shit on your own point in your own post. He says WoW is dying because of LFR. You say WoW dies without LFR. But he is wrong because he doesnt have the data. But you are right because... you.. don't have the data.

This is one of the many reasons I roll around laughing at you every day. Your emotion makes you weak.. and predictiable.. but most of all.. foolish

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Like I said... I love my followers.

Ahh the old "whatever you say it helps my case" line. Still laughing.

(and you edited more in, I sure own you.. LOL)

[Deleted]

2) Without LFR WoW dies, the very fact that LFR rewarded sub par performing gear, with generic looks and people left in droves speaks to that. Blizzard tends to agree as they are returning to the MoP model regarding LFR.

You don't have the data to back that claim either. Assuming people leave because they can't get gear is a long shot. Maybe blizzard raises the ilvl of the gear dropping in legion LFR because nobody ran LFR anymore (there is no point, as you can get full ilvl 705 ilvl just from tanaan jungle and valor farming, and I m not taking into account the warforged gear you can get in mythic dungeons). If you re casual to the point of not wanting to bother with raid, I don't really think you'd farm the content to get gear.

6) Honestly the first I have ever heard that. I am not immediately disregarding it, but that seems to be based heavily on perception.

I can back that claim up, dungeons in WoD beta used to be very hard.

[A dot Ham]

Christ this guy is delusional "you support an ideal that I don't agree with on a personal level so your whole argument is irrelevant". One would think if you have a strong opinion on something your number one goal should be to debate and convert non believers (not silence them).

I am not here to recruit followers. Just here to provide a healthy reality check so many of you need.

If you came here simply for nods of approval... well I don't know what to tell you.


Your opinion of LFR is valid... you don't like it fine. Its not my favorite either.

I draw the line when people start making baseless conclusions about the state of the game and the financial health of blizzard, because they don't like 1 facet of the product.

"Its also laughable that I am supposed to value your opinion of raiding and difficulty therein... but if you support LFR... your opinion doesn't matter and you are obviously trolling."

This is not my opinion. But the opinion of @Yggdrasil who spends his time following me from post to post and tries to paint me as a troll. He thinks he can get away with it by not responding to me directly. He is not as smart as he thinks he is.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Every MMO has a huge amount of entitled players who want scalable end game content (EQ started the downward spiral of cratering to the masses even before WoW was released, if anything WoW is still copying the EQ model to a T). The real questions is did it affect your core group of friends into not wanting to commit time to pre-made raiding because LFR was enough for them.

I think its next to impossible to pin point that to be honest. A lot of factors are in the equation and the factors are fluid and constantly changing. So again really hard to pin point.

[primalmatter]

1) Clearly my relevant data slap had no effect... not really sure how else to make you see that at this point. YOU DON'T HAVE THE DATA TO BACK THAT CLAIM.

2) Without LFR WoW dies, the very fact that LFR rewarded sub par performing gear, with generic looks and people left in droves speaks to that. Blizzard tends to agree as they are returning to the MoP model regarding LFR.

3) Nobody EVER asked for LFR. Blizzard responded to a need in an attempt to capitalize on leaving players... it paid off. Once again... SKILL is not, nor has it ever, been a factor to raiding and seeing content. Ever. Get out of your delusional box and step back into reality. Also raid availability does not equate to skill either... seriously what are you even talking about? There is content available to players and their given skill level (see Normal, Heroic, Mythic) but even most of those tend to be more about whether your are geared appropriately for the content.

4) Wrong again. My point was the shift in player participation, the content they are currently doing. My comments regarding low server pop were preemptively combating your argument that somehow 9/10 of the players participating in content beyond the top tier somehow makes the world feel alive, and it actually does the opposite. Reading comprehension... I know that's not a specific school curriculum but it is definitely an expected learning outcome.

5)If a players end experience is LFR and they are satisfied with that good for them. If you are here to bitch about LFR being end game content and you claim to have the skill and gear necessary to play beyond LFR... and you don't well then that is on you my friend. No one else.

6) Honestly the first I have ever heard that. I am not immediately disregarding it, but that seems to be based heavily on perception.

7) It doesn't have to be better than WoW to be competition. It doesn't have to have more lifetime subs than WoW did or does. The only thing that has to happen is people stop playing WoW, to play the other mmos. If all you did was create a character in that other mmo... it competed, not well, but it competed. But again... its not JUST mmos that compete with your time, energy, money you could be spending playing WoW... quite literally everything you do in your free time is competition.

1) You speaking gibberish isn't a SLAP the hell that means.. You are not a reliably resource.

2) Without lfr wow had over ten million players. Maybe some of the worst players in lfr will quit but that is hardly a loss. People left lfr because the bribe wasn't good enough they never enjoyed it.

3)Bullshit. People whined constantly for easy raids to get loot in. It also didn't pay off hence the downward death spiral of subs since lfr... The notion you think skill doesn't come into play with raiding is comical at best but more so it high lights the problem I am trying to show you. Gear works as a tool to help less skilled players clear content. It needs to be given out at a slow and methodical pace to function properly. WoDs lol everyone here have heroic raid gear did not attract more players it left them feeling that there was nothing left to do. They did not have the skills they should of picked up on there way to gearing to that level.

4) Right it doesn't work on a low pop because certain areas of the game usually the higher difficulty parts have diminishing returns. The lowest aka world content dies off quickly as players slowly start to sort themselves into normal,heroic,mythic dungeons and then raids. Blizzard has tried hard world content and it simply doesn't work players always respond with bringing more numbers. Community isn't just some random person walking down SW it is in guilds running content at the same or close to the same level you are.

5) 6 Million players where not satisfied with it. The game incentives it and markets it as a end game. If my first experience to end game was lfr i would of quit to.

6) They took down the old wod beta feedback forums but it wasn't a quite issue. A lot of players complained that dungeons were to hard at the time.

7) So then this is some vague non argument I am supposed to care about why exactly? Watching paint dry is competition to wow with this semi intellectual argument,

I doubt that. Real mythic raiders don't give a fuck what the plebeians do or don't do in LFR as it has not effect on them... you on the other hand seem to be truly bothered by it... go figure.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lmatter/simple

Been world seventh in the raid scene before even. Please to not speak for other players love ;p

[A dot Ham]

You don't have the data to back that claim either. Assuming people leave because they can't get gear is a long shot. Maybe blizzard raises the ilvl of the gear dropping in legion LFR because nobody ran LFR anymore (there is no point, as you can get full ilvl 705 ilvl just from tanaan jungle and valor farming, and I m not taking into account the warforged gear you can get in mythic dungeons). If you re casual to the point of not wanting to bother with raid, I don't really think you'd farm the content to get gear.

You're right I don't have any raw data for you.

But it was one way in MoP and subs were in decline but still pretty healthy.

Then it was another way WoD and we saw a drastic decline in subs.

Now it is going back to how it was in MoP in Legion...

I'd say its a pretty safe bet I'm right. But I'll concede that isn't proof.

[Deleted]

You're right I don't have any raw data for you.

But it was one way in MoP and subs were in decline but still pretty healthy.

Then it was another way WoD and we saw a drastic decline in subs.

Now it is going back to how it was in MoP in Legion...

I'd say its a pretty safe bet I'm right. But I'll concede that isn't proof.

By making that statement, you assume the only difference between WoD and MoP is the ilvl of the gear dropping in LFR. Which, obviously, isn't the case.

The way you re thinking is exactly why blizzard fails to make wow interesting again : the sub don't decline for merely one reason, and a MMORPG is also, on one of its aspect, one piece of art. As such you can't really break it down into a summation of individual features. That also does explain why wow vanilla and TBC worked : as a whole, even with all its shortcoming if you were looking at the game closely, it just worked.

[rmack]

I think its next to impossible to pin point that to be honest. A lot of factors are in the equation and the factors are fluid and constantly changing. So again really hard to pin point.

Then it becomes the same argument of mainstream music and how "pissed" I am because good music is shunned. The only music being released is dumb down for the masses and is making everyone dumb around me (and now they can't even appreciate good music). Solid tough raiding is still there in wow, tight community guilds are still there you just need to make the effort to look for it as it's not the mainstream anymore.

[A dot Ham]

1) You speaking gibberish isn't a SLAP the hell that means.. You are not a reliably resource.

2) Without lfr wow had over ten million players. Maybe some of the worst players in lfr will quit but that is hardly a loss. People left lfr because the bribe wasn't good enough they never enjoyed it.

3)Bullshit. People whined constantly for easy raids to get loot in. It also didn't pay off hence the downward death spiral of subs since lfr... The notion you think skill doesn't come into play with raiding is comical at best but more so it high lights the problem I am trying to show you. Gear works as a tool to help less skilled players clear content. It needs to be given out at a slow and methodical pace to function properly. WoDs lol everyone here have heroic raid gear did not attract more players it left them feeling that there was nothing left to do. They did not have the skills they should of picked up on there way to gearing to that level.

4) Right it doesn't work on a low pop because certain areas of the game usually the higher difficulty parts have diminishing returns. The lowest aka world content dies off quickly as players slowly start to sort themselves into normal,heroic,mythic dungeons and then raids. Blizzard has tried hard world content and it simply doesn't work players always respond with bringing more numbers. Community isn't just some random person walking down SW it is in guilds running content at the same or close to the same level you are.

5) 6 Million players where not satisfied with it. The game incentives it and markets it as a end game. If my first experience to end game was lfr i would of quit to.

6) They took down the old wod beta feedback forums but it wasn't a quite issue. A lot of players complained that dungeons were to hard at the time.

7) So then this is some vague non argument I am supposed to care about why exactly? Watching paint dry is competition to wow with this semi intellectual argument,

R E L E V A N T

D A T A

Your feels are next to worthless.

You are so delusional it hurts. You probably think GC was the best thing that ever happened to this game too.

[primalmatter]

R E L E V A N T

D A T A

Your feels are next to worthless.

You are so delusional it hurts. You probably think GC was the best thing that ever happened to this game too.

Game grows when it had a very ridged and mostly linear progression system. The more it veered from that the fast subs dropped.

My good friend you are the one who came to a pistol duel but forgot to bring bullets.

[rmack]

5) 6 Million players where not satisfied with it. The game incentives it and markets it as a end game. If my first experience to end game was lfr i would of quit to.

Most enjoyed the first few months of every expansion released since cata but died down because of content drought. I would assume most would agree that content drought that started with ICC was the main factor in people leaving and not because of LFR.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Then it becomes the same argument of mainstream music and how "pissed" I am because good music is shunned. The only music being released is dumb down for the masses and is making everyone dumb around me (and now they can't even appreciate good music). Solid tough raiding is still there in wow, tight community guilds are still there you just need to make the effort to look for it as it's not the mainstream anymore.

Well I am not trying to deny your point of view. Because in a way I can see where you are coming from. It might be a little to edgy in my opinion but I see the angle. But at the same time I know one can safely ignore LFR and just let it be. If people are more attracted to it than say other levels of content like normal, heroic, and mythic then they should just be allowed to go to it. I still am good friends with people that just run stuff like LFR. While sure I might like it if they raided with me up in mythic truth be told if they are truly drawn to LFR than they might not be exactly what I am looking for on my mythic team. Even though they are my friends. I will just run 5 mans and such with them and we can enjoy our separate time during raiding on our own flavor.

[A dot Ham]

Game grows when it had a very ridged and mostly linear progression system. The more it veered from that the fast subs dropped.

My good friend you are the one who came to a pistol duel but forgot to bring bullets.

LOL subs! Case in point.

Not only are you not using relevant data... you aren't even using current data.

[ipaq]

There hasn't been an LFR thread for awhile, so I thought I would see what the community thinks.

In your opinion, do you think the LFR system that has now been a part of the game since the end of Cata (Dragon Soul), do you think its been a success or a failure?

In some respects LFR has benefits. There's no denying that. In other respects, it completely undermines the spirit of the game and what an MMO should be.

In my opinion it has been an absolute failure for many reasons, but for 2 main reasons:

1) Destroyed the community - Players literally are no longer inclined to even speak to one another anymore. We are all now just drones that play the UI queue up game.

2) Players are worse skillwise - Players are no longer expected or even need to get better because things die regardless of effort in LFR.

What do you think? Why do you think that way?

Another stupid pos LFR thread made by a mmo-c mod.

[Jerichofr]

By making that statement, you assume the only difference between WoD and MoP is the ilvl of the gear dropping in LFR. Which, obviously, isn't the case.

The way you re thinking is exactly why blizzard fails to make wow interesting again : the sub don't decline for merely one reason, and a MMORPG is also, on one of its aspect, one piece of art. As such you can't really break it down into a summation of individual features. That also does explain why wow vanilla and TBC worked : as a whole, even with all its shortcoming if you were looking at the game closely, it just worked.

It worked because it was a "flash in the pan" type of thing. right place, right time, most casual MMO at the time. Pretty easy to see why it succeeded and that the progression model of the time had little to do with it. No reason at all to suspect that returning to that horribly outdated, worthless, horrible, useless, crappy, terrible, exclusivity-breeding, guild-poaching promoting mess of a model would turn the game around.

[primalmatter]

Most enjoyed the first few months of every expansion released since cata but died down because of content drought. I would assume most would agree that content drought that started with ICC was the main factor in people leaving and not because of LFR.

I would agree to a extent. I believe this everyone had to have the best gear and be on the same tier greatly exasperates the issue though. While more content is always desired I feel practical use of the content matters just as well.