[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[nox597]

I would love to see some synergy between Fel Eruption, Fel Barrage, and Throw Glaive (Master of the Glaive / Bloodlet)... Maybe have Throw Glaive give you a buff that the next chaos damage ability you do deals 20% more damage, or something? Less useful for Chaos Strike spam, but good for a longer cooldown, heavy hitting attack. Perhaps Bloodlet could also have a chance to gain charges for Fel Barrage, as well?

It could give us a potential third spec to play with?

[Jekuto]

Not sure if this was already brought up in the thread, but since the nerf to Chaos Strike/Annihilation is the Demonic build pretty lame now? Is there a new "go-to" build out there?

[Allenseiei]

I completely agree. The Nemesis/Chaos Blades reminds me of an old combat rogue. Chain CDs together, go ham for 15-20secs, then easy mode for 2-3 minutes. On certain fights this would absolutely be ideal. Hell, might be ideal when learning a hard encounter for the first time. But after you are comfortable with a fight, the surroundings and timing, momentum should start to catch up.

I still see the builds like rogue builds. Combat = Nemesis and Momentum = Subtlety (assuming completely equal dps).



With having Chaos Blades, AND Demon Reborn you get double the length on Chaos Blades. You really need Demon Reborn to get the most out of the build.

I'm trying to figure out the rotation myself.

Pull - Nemesis>Chaos Blades>Meta....then Chaos Blades when the buff fades, then Nemesis when the buff fades? Wait 2 minutes and pop Chaos Blades>Nemesis?

Chaos blade rotation as I have it right now:

Opener:
throw glaive + Felblade gap closer
Nemesis + pool fury with felblade if it procs
Fury of the illidari
close to caping fury -> Chaos Blade + Metamorphosis

While in Metamorphosis -> Felblade if not going to cap fury - Fury of the Illidari if your fury starved - Fury dump Annihilation -
When Chaos blade runs out reapply it as soon as possible

After the metamorphosis you are back to Chaos strike + Felblade spam without needs to pile fury (untill next chaos blades)

The second nemesis you have to delay it by 25~ seconds if the fight allows you to use Chaos Blades again. You delay it so when you pop those chaos blades there's still at least 13 seconds left of nemesis.

In 4+ minutes you can either delay meta for roughtly 12~ sec so you don't waste a nemesis if you know the fight is going to be 5min+, or pop it immediately and use that new refreshed nemesis.

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I might be misunderstanding you, but my thinking is more if you pop Nemesis, then Eye Beam to finish the mob off, you're now in Meta with a buff to damage and can Chaos Strike/Anni with the Nemesis buff applicable. Isn't that a good thing? (if you already said that I apologize...my brain is mush today)

Nemesis can be used like that in pulls yes. Demonic and Eye beam gain value the more targets there are.
In single target if you are using chaos blades, you don't have demonic, so eye beam loses a lot of its value. We were already using Eye beam single target and canceling it as fast as possible just to get a few more seconds into demonic. With the annihilation nerf, in single target, demonic is not as strong anymore.

However, eye beam can be in the single target rotation if you spec your artifact for it. Going for the extra eye beam damage and anguish, it pulls ahead in damage of chaos strike slightly. However, with demon blades, its not viable against just hitting chaos strike. Not only does chaos strike crit(speccing for chaos strike crit dmg) quite harder than the improved eye beam damage, it restores fury and has psyenergy with demon blades since you are still auto attacking.

This is why Demon hunter feels somewhat clunky, talents and skills that contradict each other.

[Infective]

I expect they will bring Eye Beam up a bit to be worth use in single target. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it. It should be as much damage per fury as a chaos strike even in single target applications.

From last page but I wanted to comment on this anyway, Eye Beam actually needs to be brought up to equal MORE damage per fury because you lose auto attacks while channeling. I'd like to see something like "After fully completing the channel, if Eye Beam hit only one target you gain Focused for 15 seconds. Focused increases the damage of your single target abilities by 15%." Or make it a debuff to the target. Something other than just raising the numbers so that theres more room to synergize it with other skills.

[Allenseiei]

So its FBlade in -> wait for full Fury from DBlades -> CBlades -> Nemesis -> Meta -> the Meta CStrike for 12s -> CBlades -> the Meta CStrike till Meta end -> Pool for 30s and use Nemesis - Keep pooling -> CBlades -> Nemesis -> CStrike dump -> repeat?


Hitting CStriek whenever you may cap (assuming you won't be approaching a dump phase soon) and FBlade whenever it is up (assuming DBlades resets FBlade like DBite would)...anyone know the proc chance for that?





Once I type it out, it seems a bit more "active" than it initially sounded in my head...

You shouldn't take chances with the fury. You should use CS if you are above 50 fury (70 if you have 130 as cap) and dump fury if you have trinket procs. Fblade resets similar D blades but I would bet the % are roughly the same over a large sample.

[Thrillhouse918]

Chaos blade rotation as I have it right now:


However, eye beam can be in the single target rotation if you spec your artifact for it. Going for the extra eye beam damage and anguish, it pulls ahead in damage of chaos strike slightly. However, with demon blades, its not viable against just hitting chaos strike. Not only does chaos strike crit(speccing for chaos strike crit dmg) quite harder than the improved eye beam damage, it restores fury and has psyenergy with demon blades since you are still auto attacking.

This is why Demon hunter feels somewhat clunky, talents and skills that contradict each other.

So, assuming speccing into Eye Beam damage and Anguish, what would the build look like? No Demon Blades? Grab Demonic?

[Tato23]

Allenseiei, How are you doing on damage with your build? Are you competing pretty well? top3? top5? usually?

[Racthoh]

haven't logged into the beta for a few weeks, seems i missed a lot if people are running demon blades and nemesis.

[Qlix]

clunky DH? play a hunter and tell me about clunky. my god i have no idea what im gonna do for the few weeks between prepatch and DH unlock gaaaaaaaaaaaaaawdamn

[Forde]

clunky DH? play a hunter and tell me about clunky. my god i have no idea what im gonna do for the few weeks between prepatch and DH unlock gaaaaaaaaaaaaaawdamn

And for that matter try legion ret... so clunky.

[Qlix]

honestly feel bad for a lot of classes come patch time

[Snegovik]

And for that matter try legion ret... so clunky.

i was going to say the same thing, Ret atm is by far the worst designed DPS class in game, our rotation is shit, dmg is shit, 0 mobility. DH seems much more fluid judging from beta and pulls ahead on DPS meters.

[Forde]

i was going to say the same thing, Ret atm is by far the worst designed DPS class in game, our rotation is shit, dmg is shit, 0 mobility. DH seems much more fluid judging from beta and pulls ahead on DPS meters.

I mean, I get what they were going for. They just went about it in the absolute worst way possible.

Nonetheless, once beta realms come back up, I'm probably going to give Nemesis/CB a couple more tries. I don't think I've tested it out enough.

What's everyone's thoughts on Blind Fury? I, like many others, love Eye Beam, and would love to have it useful more often on ST like it was before the nerf.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

i was going to say the same thing, Ret atm is by far the worst designed DPS class in game, our rotation is shit, dmg is shit, 0 mobility. DH seems much more fluid judging from beta and pulls ahead on DPS meters.

Such an odd sentiment, obviously everyone has a different opinion but Ret is some of the most fun i've had on the PTR currently (since i can't access DH, obviously). To each their own i guess, heh.

So, that aside, anyone else notice any other improvements for Havoc with the latest patch?

And only one person kinda sorta answered me with my question from a page or two back about how Demon Blades + Felblade feels after the change to Demon Blades. Does it proc Felblade frequently? As in, when you banked up all those potential procs (didn't they say you could bank up like, 5 or something? Yowza) does the next auto attack practically proc Felblade (nearly) 100% of the time?

[Allenseiei]

So, assuming speccing into Eye Beam damage and Anguish, what would the build look like? No Demon Blades? Grab Demonic?

Yes you would run Demonic without demon blades. Eye beam contradicts Demon blade mechanic since you are wasting uptime on boss with melee hits. So eye beam build goes better with preparation + momentum + felblade.

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Allenseiei, How are you doing on damage with your build? Are you competing pretty well? top3? top5? usually?

Depends where. Dungeons i'm usually toping meters unless some unfortunate coincidence or mechanic interrupts my rotation for a while. In world bosses I compete with affliction locks and shammys which are in the top 5.

Not much raiding parses since the latest builds though. Today in raid testing hopefully I can get more things done.

[Thrillhouse918]

Allenseiei, my question about the Eye Beam/Anguish build (after your response) is how do you effectively use momentum on targets with small hit boxes? Do you back up and put yourself out of range to FR forward? On large hit box enemies like bosses it isn't an issue, but dungeon bosses often have smaller hit boxes that make this more challenging.

[Dimzum]

Not to be a debbie downer on Nemesis/Chaos Blades Allen but

Depends where. Dungeons i'm usually toping meters unless some unfortunate coincidence or mechanic interrupts my rotation for a while. In world bosses I compete with affliction locks and shammys which are in the top 5.

I can say the exact same thing with a demonic/prepared build. The only time I am not top damage is when someone in full mythic gear with all three relic slots hops in a heroic and wipes the floor with everyone. I'm 832 with no 3rd relic, but I manage top damage on most trash and just about any boss that isn't unfavorable to melee (looking at you Odin...)

I'm not doubting your build can pump the dps, sims and math have shown it. Just don't want people reading this and think "Well, demonic is done for!" It's best until we can see some actually simcraft/spreadsheet math and some actual logs from raiding.

Best of luck to those that get into some raids today. I'm stuck at work all day.

[chematus]

People are so excited about Momentum build. They see it as "fun" and "powerful". Seems like most of them never had raid harder than lfr. You should understand that it will be mostly unusable in mythic. We need anything more viable, DR/DB seems like it, hope it will work out.

[Thrillhouse918]

Not to be a debbie downer on Nemesis/Chaos Blades Allen but


I can say the exact same thing with a demonic/prepared build. The only time I am not top damage is when someone in full mythic gear with all three relic slots hops in a heroic and wipes the floor with everyone. I'm 832 with no 3rd relic, but I manage top damage on most trash and just about any boss that isn't unfavorable to melee (looking at you Odin...)

I'm not doubting your build can pump the dps, sims and math have shown it. Just don't want people reading this and think "Well, demonic is done for!" It's best until we can see some actually simcraft/spreadsheet math and some actual logs from raiding.

Best of luck to those that get into some raids today. I'm stuck at work all day.

Dim, what's the Prep/Demonic build you use? I've been using Chaos Cleave, Prep, Felblade, Fel Eruption (yeah yeah I know, I r bad, gonna fix that), Soul Rending, Unleashed Power and Demonic. I'm thinking trade out Fel for Nemesis and Unleashed for DReborn?

I mean hitting VR and Felblading back to the mob is fun as shit but a Momentum build interests me so little I'd re-roll

[Tato23]

Not to be a debbie downer on Nemesis/Chaos Blades Allen but


I can say the exact same thing with a demonic/prepared build. The only time I am not top damage is when someone in full mythic gear with all three relic slots hops in a heroic and wipes the floor with everyone. I'm 832 with no 3rd relic, but I manage top damage on most trash and just about any boss that isn't unfavorable to melee (looking at you Odin...)

I'm not doubting your build can pump the dps, sims and math have shown it. Just don't want people reading this and think "Well, demonic is done for!" It's best until we can see some actually simcraft/spreadsheet math and some actual logs from raiding.

Best of luck to those that get into some raids today. I'm stuck at work all day.

So usually you are top damage single target if the others have around equal gear? Man i was worried from what i was seeing that we werent even breaking top 5 on equal gear, but you are saying you are almost always top with equal gear? Which classes usually beat you out? Enh shammys? Locks?

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Allenseiei, i look forward to you reporting back on your raids. Are you going to try multiple builds?