BREXIT - leave or remain?

[FuxieDK]

Not sure if Djalil was referring to landmass. Don't get your pants in a twist.

Big country with lots of people.. Break down the sentence, please..
Since the population is explicitly mentioned, "big country" can only refer to size.. And when one of the things we compare (GB) is broken down in two elements (size and population), so must the other (Norway) be implicitly.

Thus the sentence reads something like:
Norway is small with unknown amount of people and GB is big with many people; a claim disproven...

[Deleted]

Big country with lots of people.. Break down the sentence, please..
Since the population is explicitly mentioned, "big country" can only refer to size.. And when one of the things we compare (GB) is broken down in two elements (size and population), so must the other (Norway) be implicitly.

Thus the sentence reads something like:
Norway is small with unknown amount of people and GB is big with many people; a claim disproven...

OBVIOUSLY I wasn't talking about landmass.

[dribbles]

Why is every Brexit person so completely ignorant of reality?

Are you racist? I guess it's acceptable in your book to hate tens of millions of "ignorant" people who will Vote Leave.
Is it just because they hold a different viewpoint to you? /sigh

[Mayhem]

Are you racist? I guess it's acceptable in your book to hate tens of millions of "ignorant" people who will Vote Leave.
Is it just because they hold a different viewpoint to you? /sigh

This thread gets better by the hour.

[Deleted]

Don't know if this been discussed yet.

Norways prime minister says 'Uk won't like life outside the EU"l

Basically she says that you still have to agree to EU degrees and pay a hefty sum if you want to be apart of the Schengen agreement. You just lose out on the ability to be apart of the decision making.
Seems that Norways primie minister says it's not all that rosy to be semi attached to EU.

[Slant]

Are you racist? I guess it's acceptable in your book to hate tens of millions of "ignorant" people who will Vote Leave.
Is it just because they hold a different viewpoint to you? /sigh

You're running out of arguments, aren't you? Cute, but a bit pathetic.

[dribbles]

You're running out of arguments, aren't you? Cute, but a bit pathetic.

Running out of arguments? More like the EU is running out of time. Worked out yet which countries are going to make up the £3500000 a week shortfall when the UK leaves? Gonna be hard with Turkey joining the EU as well. How the hell will you afford it? Tough times ahead for Europe.

6 days to save the UK, 6 days to Vote Leave

[Mayhem]

Running out of arguments? More like the EU is running out of time. Worked out yet which countries are going to make up the £3500000 a week shortfall when the UK leaves? Gonna be hard with Turkey joining the EU as well. How the hell will you afford it? Tough times ahead for Europe.

6 days to save the UK, 6 days to Vote Leave

Are you from some kind of parallel universe where turkey is joining and the EU has a fixed budget?

[Slant]

Running out of arguments? More like the EU is running out of time. Worked out yet which countries are going to make up the £3500000 a week shortfall when the UK leaves? Gonna be hard with Turkey joining the EU as well. How the hell will you afford it? Tough times ahead for Europe.

6 days to save the UK, 6 days to Vote Leave

The EU isn't running out of anything. It won't go broke because of the missing 12 billion. Not when you have a 160 billion yearly budget. Turkey isn't joining the EU. It's not even joining the joining process at this stage.

[ati87]

Running out of arguments? More like the EU is running out of time. Worked out yet which countries are going to make up the £3500000 a week shortfall when the UK leaves? Gonna be hard with Turkey joining the EU as well. How the hell will you afford it? Tough times ahead for Europe.

6 days to save the UK, 6 days to Vote Leave

Right, like he said no arguments left.

You have to involve Turkey don't ye since you don't have anything else

[Ramz]

Lets accept some truths first before we make magical deals.

- The EU is more important to the UK than vice versa, bargaining power is limited.

Not really EU takes a lot of money from UK, to the point they'll have some major issues when it comes to finances. IF Britian will get out, there is a chance it will shake EU to some point. However what exact consequences will come out of it we have to wait and see. I really hope other countries will follow example. and will start new structure based just on trade agreement.

- For non-EU countries (china, usa, russia) the EU offers a market of 500million, the Uk offers less.

EU don't have any specific market. This is collection of each countrie's market which are abviously different between each other. And here is a great danger for them incoming when EU is acting like goverment for each country, that will enforce not good agreements like TTIP, which will make out of Europe neocolony. Obviously making deals for every country is inconvenient for each "Big players", however it's deffinietly more healthy for relations with each country, as country should have it's own decision on how to govern themselves. Countries can still make unions and agreements and form new structures.

- Rising nationalism means that if there is a Brexit Europe will worry about a chain reaction, The Eu's rational response would be to make an example of the UK.

Nationalism is a response to EU politics. The more EU government want to enforce their vision of one country, the more people will oppose. And thankg God for them. Natonalistic parties will protect the country's business instead of european - and thereofre undefined/ aline business that is often in oposition for them.

The EU will demand the a,b and c points I made in any agreement if it wants full access to the single market.

And this is why it's gonna fail. In this form it's utopian dream.

[Jessicka]

Running out of arguments? More like the EU is running out of time. Worked out yet which countries are going to make up the £3500000 a week shortfall when the UK leaves? Gonna be hard with Turkey joining the EU as well. How the hell will you afford it? Tough times ahead for Europe.

6 days to save the UK, 6 days to Vote Leave

That £350m figure has been deemed misleading by every statistician, economist, and financial analyst there is. This is what I mean by trying to counter the lies and made up bullshit Leavers keep spouting. Even when it's 100% discredited, they just keep shouting it louder.

Take control. Take it away from your democratically elected MEP - of whom Nigel Farage is one.
Take control. Take it away from your representatives in the halls of the EU put there by your representing government.
Take control. Give it to 800 unelected peers.
Take control. Give it to a political party with absolute control on the House on the back of just 33% of the voting electorate, or perhaps recalibrate that to 25% of those eligible to vote.
Because the EU isn't democratic enough.

Take control. Stay in the common market, contributing to EU budgets, accepting continued freedom of movement, but having no voice or input on decisions.
Take control. Listen to those who would tell you they can use money being spent on EU on the NHS instead, when they have neither the authority to make that decision, nor, according to any financial analyst worth their salt, the money to do so if we did leave and not continue to spend that money anyway to stay in the EEA.
Because the EU has a specified cost in the budget; in spite of the net gain is orders of magnitude higher to the economy.

Take control. Listen to those who tell you immigrants are bad, when they contribute a significant net gain to the economy.
Take control. Listen to those who tell you immigrants are bad when they're balancing the budget that allows us to continue to pay the current pension rates in an aging population.
Take control. Listen to those who tell you EU immigrants are bad because they want to employ cheaper non-EU migrants in unskilled jobs, with less protections.
Because migrants are bad mkay. Even though many of your friends and relatives probably are them.

Take control. Listen to those who tell you they want out of the EU because they want to lower safety standards on the products they produce.
Take control. Listen to those who want to lower overheads by reducing holiday entitlement and other job and safety protections.
Take control. Listen to those bankers who don't want regulations to prevent yet another crash.
Take control. Listen to that guy who wrote a book on dismantling the NHS about how he wants to protect it.
Because vested interests in leaving don't have self interest and profits at heart.

[Deleted]

Are you racist? I guess it's acceptable in your book to hate tens of millions of "ignorant" people who will Vote Leave.
Is it just because they hold a different viewpoint to you? /sigh

No its because you say we need to have border control like Norway, while being ignorant of the fact you have more control over your borders than Norway.
Its like someone saying after the Labour MP got shoot, we need more Gun control, you know like they have in the US.

[Deleted]

The UK always had a very critical stance towards they EU. It seems to me that they have never really tried to use the EU as a means to promote their interests, what mattered to them was only how to distant themselves further from the Organization. This is why their role today on EU affairs is miniscule compared to France and Germany, who have done the exact opposite... they took advantage of this complex and powerful political/economical structure to establish themselves at its very core.

I believe in the longterm it would do good for both the UK and the EU, if the Brexit prevails.

Really the EU should give up trying to defend the YES vote.

[Deleted]

Running out of arguments? More like the EU is running out of time. Worked out yet which countries are going to make up the £3500000 a week shortfall when the UK leaves? Gonna be hard with Turkey joining the EU as well. How the hell will you afford it? Tough times ahead for Europe.

6 days to save the UK, 6 days to Vote Leave

You get that if you want to be in the common market you have to pay money into it ?
(fun fact, per capita and once you account for less flowing back, Norway pay more than you currently do)
And Turkey joining? - They don't meet the criteria, Greece, Cyprus, Poland, Hungary, and France have all more or less explicitly said they don't want turkey in the EU - Russia has a better chance of joining the EU than Turkey does.
Also then you have 140 million Russians coming instead of only 80 measly million Turks!

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Not really EU takes a lot of money from UK, to the point they'll have some major issues when it comes to finances.

No - Once they cut all the money going to the UK, starts collecting all the money you still have to pay to be in the common market, I think they will make money off of this.

EU don't have any specific market.

No they literally have one singular market - This is so basic tier information, it predates the EU itself.

And here is a great danger for them incoming when EU is acting like goverment for each country, that will enforce not good agreements like TTIP, which will make out of Europe neocolony.

Wait what the fuck? - Why would Europe not have the best interest of Europe at heart? - I mean I'm fine with arguments they might screw some countries over to benefit the others, but screwing them all over because, Why?

Obviously making deals for every country is inconvenient for each "Big players", however it's deffinietly more healthy for relations with each country, as country should have it's own decision on how to govern themselves. Countries can still make unions and agreements and form new structures.

the last sentence contradicts the prior sentences.

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Take control. Listen to those who tell you immigrants are bad, when they contribute a significant net gain to the economy.
Take control. Listen to those who tell you immigrants are bad when they're balancing the budget that allows us to continue to pay the current pension rates in an aging population.
Take control. Listen to those who tell you EU immigrants are bad because they want to employ cheaper non-EU migrants in unskilled jobs, with less protections.

Some clarification here, Non EU migration, costs money - The EU migration does not (it nets a surplus) - Meaning 'Stop immigration it costs us money, get out of the EU' Is about as clever as it sounds.

[dribbles]

Turkey has all the benefits of EU membership and from October in addition free access across schengen and yet pays not a bean to the EU. This is a better deal than any existing EU member country (apart from the leech countries) has right now - so yes to all intents and purposes from October Turkey will in effect be a defacto EU member, but without having to pay for it and the EU having all the costs of this defacto member.

You say no? How many Turkish "visitors" caught working illegally in the last 12 months have been deported from Germany?

6 days to save the UK, 6 days to Vote Leave.

[Noradin]

If u bothered to read up properly on this issue then you would know all of the main issues that normal people are concerned about, issues that are pushing them towards leave.

The main issue to me is one of democracy. To me the EU machine has become a disturbingly autocratic, undemocratic, bureaucratic body. Im probably older than most in this discussion and ive lived through what the EU used to be and what its become today, and its VERY worrying.

Other issues are obviously Immigration, one that doesnt concern me much. Although this is connected to many other real issues that regular people have like jobs, housing, local services, school places, national health etc.

A new issue is UK military sovereignty. Current EU plans to create an EU Federal army is very worrying.

Alot of people will vote to protect their industries. Fishing is the best example of this, they hate the EU and want to reclaim their fishing areas.

These are issues that most of the Brexit voters see as more important than all of the financial crap in the media. Theyre concerned about stuff that directly affects their day to day life, what they see happening in their towns, in their streets. Changes they dont like, and they blame it on the EU.

Now, i dont stand with those people on every issue but i am grown up enough to admit that these are REAL ISSUES and theyre important to many people. So you pro-EU advocates can dismiss those issues and insult people who value those issues all you like... you wont change their minds by being a dick basically.

§1: A claim that there is some reason, really, but you cannot name it right now. But it is really there and people are concerned. About something. Really.

§2: A claim that the EU has become less democratic. Obviously you didn't spend any time on informing yourself, because the EU has steadily become more democratic, and is already more democratic than the UK. If the UK leaves it will be a net loss of democracy for the country.

§3: Allengedly you aren't concerned about immigration--but you feel the need to mention it--and it shows, because the issues you attribute to it really do not have anything to do with it or with the EU at all. Those are shortcomings of the governments of the UK and of local politicans as well as projected shortcomings of the people (wanting to live above what they can afford). The UK is in control of the numbers regarding immigration already, the EU has nothing to do with that.

§4: You are worried about this but not about the NATO? Then maybe you should read up on the topic. (Yes this is a valid point you are making, but are you prepared enough to discuss it?)

§5 Fishing, yes, the EU has been used to make deals about the protection of fishing grounds, because it is good at coming to compromises among its member states. Otherwise those deals would have been made anyway (they have been made in the past) but with much more drama and more costs involved. Without those potections, guess what: There wouldn't be a fishing industry anymore. They want to blunder these protected zones because everything else they have already destroyed. It is like selling off the last few grains of wheat despite needing them for the next sowing. That is what the leaders of the fishing industry would like to do, afterwards they would hand the mess to the state to sort out while they have left with their money.

§6 So the stuff you say directly affects the voter's day to day lifes is (I reapeat): some domestic problem the EU helps aleviate, some domestic mismanagement the EU has no hand in, foreign defense, some fishing mangates agenda. I see that they blame it on the EU, but that is because they do not inform themselves and fall for the old trick of "blaming the 'foreign' power".

§7 A preemtive deflection in case someone debunks one of your points. You "only report" these points, they "aren't your own thoughts", but you "respect them" and accuse everyone who dares argue against them of "being dicks to those poor, innocent, common people (who aren't you) by telling them they are wrong".

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Ur awesome at ignoring peoples concerns.

Ur awesome at misrepresenting poeples concerns and using them for your agenda.

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"Turkey fails to meet criteria for visa-free EU travel"
(not that this directly affects the UK either way since this only applies to Schengen, but the article has other information)

This was to be expected from the begining.

[FuxieDK]

OBVIOUSLY I wasn't talking about landmass.

Not obvious, since if you were not, you would be stating population size twice, as seperate arguments..

Nothing, and literate person would do; "GB have a lot of people and a lot if people".... See?

[Noradin]

In the end, EU needs a scrapegoat to vent its accumulating frustration on. If UK is willing to play that role ... let the show begin. Either EU will decimate UK after it leaves EU or it does not. Either way it's a win for the rest of the EU countries. UK is willing to be the test subject. Win or lose ... everyone else in EU will benefit.

So be brave. Vote brexit.

I'm tempted to say It is almost fair after all this time the Uk used the EU as a scapegoat for everything.

[Ramz]

the last sentence contradicts the prior sentences.

It's more that I have trouble in expressing what I want to say.

No - Once they cut all the money going to the UK, starts collecting all the money you still have to pay to be in the common market, I think they will make money off of this.

But UK won't pay for the european beurocracy, just for trade agreemnt. Which is something each country should opt to. And now goverment of incompetent eurocrats, that call snail to be a fish, and carrot to be a fruit.

No they literally have one singular market - This is so basic tier information, it predates the EU itself.

I meant that while eu government can make a deal like TTIP, they still have to split said market for each country, so some will have more benefits than another. In case of TTIP there is still a chance it's not gonna pass as long as one country will say no. And I pray for that.

Wait what the fuck? - Why would Europe not have the best interest of Europe at heart? - I mean I'm fine with arguments they might screw some countries over to benefit the others, but screwing them all over because, Why?

The leaks from TTIP are already saying a lot. Why they're doing it I don't kniw, I guess some politicians have in interest to screw everyone over money that for example Monsanto could provide. And This is also the reason why I'm against the EU, I am not for "screwing one country so another could gain". Countries should decide on their own how their market and politics should look like.