Resto Druid - Legion Talents

[Tiberria]

This is more relevant for mythic+, but speccing Abundance turns Regrowth into a pretty efficient flash heal variant, clocking at 770% for the direct heal alone if you count living seed (assuming 0.8 from artifact traits).
Couple that with SotF and you get a heal that surpasses HW:Serenity on a 30s cd. In magic christmas land, you can add in Power of the Archdruid for hilarity.

You really can not count Living Seed at 100% effectiveness in any realistic calculation of the power of our heals. You always end up with significantly less effective output from Living Seed because of how it works (only healing on hit, sometimes hits aren't enough to consume it - wasting the remainder, etc.). Based on what we typically see on live, I think you would need to cut the throughput from Living Seed by at least 50% to get any realistic calculation. You also have to keep in mind that the artifact trait that brings Living Seed from 50% to 80% is likely to be the second last trait we put points in (after everything but Mark of Shifting), because you have a clear path to all the major traits without putting any points into that and it's a very weak 3 point investment. We won't have an 80% Living Seed for several months.

At any rate, at current beta values on the 110 templates.

Flash Heal - 178,371
Healing Surge (w/Tidal Waves) - 166,604
Enveloping Mist -247,588 (but costs nearly 80% more mana than other flash heals)
Flash of Light - 216,333 - with Infusion proc and including Beacon healing

Regrowth - 52,032 direct heal + 12,804 HoT
Regrowth with 60% baseline crit - 96,055
Regrowth with 100% crit from Abundance - 116,868
Regrowth with 100% crit and 50% Living Seed (at 50% effectiveness) - 142,884
Regrowth with 100% crit and 80% Living Seed (at 50% effectiveness) - 158,494

Regrowth with 100% crit and 80% Living Seed (at 50% effectiveness) + SoTF - 475,482
Holy Word Serenity - 493,602
Cenarion Ward - 245,961
Cenarion Ward with Flourish - 491,922

OK, so even if you have 100% Regrowth crit from Abundance and the 80% Living Seed trait, Regrowth is still weaker than every other Flash Heal. It's also false that SoTF - Regrowth is stronger than Serenity, it's actually worse. Getting it also eats up 2 CDs and having to use SoTF procs on Regrowth (let alone taking SoTF over Incarnation or Germination to do that) comes at a huge cost to your flexibility and group healing. Plus, it's even weaker than these numbers show, because 100% Regrowths are not going to scale with Crit at all, while every other flash heal does, meaning that they are probably all about 20%+ stronger than these numbers would indicate.

Plus, if you want burst tank healing, you're honestly probably better off just taking Cenarion Ward. It's going to give you burst that's fairly comparable to SoTF-Regrowth - especially when you factor in the interaction with Flourish and Essence of Ghanir, and it only eats up 1 talent point to get it, leaving you free to have that L60 row to have some flexibility with whatever you want to do with your healing. I just doubt Abundance is even good in 5 mans.

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s=1854&wipes=1

while this is not particularly good tries, there's quite a few 2 min logs, the paladin mostly being able to beat me, also take into consideration that I have 19 traits, while I believe he hasnt even started questing. Which leads me to believe paladins are also in a good spot. While I probably played in a way to be way more mana conservative, aswell as tranq never really hitting more than 10 people, if even that.

And, even being behind Paladins on ~2 minute logs is a pretty huge concern, because they have a weak raid cooldown, which means that short pulls should favor Druids. Not to mention the fact that their tank healing isn't even touched by any other spec at this point since they gutted our mastery and talent tree 2 builds ago - they will be locked into every raid comp as usual.

[Deleted]

So all in all, would you say that resto is good pick for mythic+ 5mans or not?

[Tiberria]

So all in all, would you say that resto is good pick for mythic+ 5mans or not?

I think Resto should be more than fine for Mythic+. Min/maxing Mythic+ will probably require heavy mastery stacking, which will almost certainly require a seperate gear set from optimal raid gear (mastery is likely a poor stat in raids), but I can't see the spec being bad in 5 mans with an adequate level of mastery.

[Deleted]

I think Resto should be more than fine for Mythic+. Min/maxing Mythic+ will probably require heavy mastery stacking, which will almost certainly require a seperate gear set from optimal raid gear (mastery is likely a poor stat in raids), but I can't see the spec being bad in 5 mans with an adequate level of mastery.

I plan to have resto as an almost mythic+ only char so this sounds like great news!

[Tiberria]

I plan to have resto as an almost mythic+ only char so this sounds like great news!

I am doubting that maintaining Mythic+ only characters is going to be much of a viable thing. People who only do Mythic+ and don't get any raid gear, are going to fall behind the gear curve compared to people that do both, and getting to the higher levels of Mythic+ will be gear determinant. Therefore, I don't think you can realistically say you will raid on one toon and Mythic+ on another, or say you are just going to do Mythic+ period - at least if going for it on a more than casual level.

[theburned]

And, even being behind Paladins on ~2 minute logs is a pretty huge concern, because they have a weak raid cooldown, which means that short pulls should favor Druids. Not to mention the fact that their tank healing isn't even touched by any other spec at this point since they gutted our mastery and talent tree 2 builds ago - they will be locked into every raid comp as usual.

I think you are missing the point here, thing is that he has almost nothing to boost his character, my character is fully decked with enchants, quite a few gems a lvl 19 artifact and 3 relics, and going even with someone who has pretty much none of that is the concern here. I would estimate this to be around 20-25% extra throughput.

Tranq only healing 10 targets means its not really much of a raid cooldown, and avenging wrath should be more than good enough to make up for any gain Tranq would be able to get us.

The other concerning thing was that I generally had less overhealing than him aswell, which is a very big concern, resto druids generally having very high overhealing, but if I still fall short with 20-25% throughput on top of playing more efficiently with my healing that is a major concern.

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I am doubting that maintaining Mythic+ only characters is going to be much of a viable thing. People who only do Mythic+ and don't get any raid gear, are going to fall behind the gear curve compared to people that do both, and getting to the higher levels of Mythic+ will be gear determinant. Therefore, I don't think you can realistically say you will raid on one toon and Mythic+ on another, or say you are just going to do Mythic+ period - at least if going for it on a more than casual level.

Mythic+ characters will be a thing they just won't be as strong, the other thing here is that mythic+ chars will be able to go full into mastery something you can't really do as mythic raider.
It won't be optimal, but its not going to be impossible.

[fallenangel-succ]

You really can not count Living Seed at 100% effectiveness in any realistic calculation of the power of our heals. You always end up with significantly less effective output from Living Seed because of how it works (only healing on hit, sometimes hits aren't enough to consume it - wasting the remainder, etc.). Based on what we typically see on live, I think you would need to cut the throughput from Living Seed by at least 50% to get any realistic calculation. You also have to keep in mind that the artifact trait that brings Living Seed from 50% to 80% is likely to be the second last trait we put points in (after everything but Mark of Shifting), because you have a clear path to all the major traits without putting any points into that and it's a very weak 3 point investment. We won't have an 80% Living Seed for several months.

This depends on how you choose to play the game. If the content you're doing is a mix of mythic+ and HC raids, then perhaps other traits and talents are less valuable to you. For instance, going from 6 to 8 targets for WG in treeform isn't exactly helpful, and probably the same is true for Tranquil mind.
The effectiveness of LS has to be higher when you're the single healer, as well. I think putting it at 50% is rather on the low point.
I don't have beta access, but these numbers seem odd. RG (direct part) is 214% SP while FH is 500%. Did you count mastery for FH and not for RG?
My main problem with SotF is that it is consumed by RJ as well. This really is a trap that should be removed (although maybe it plays more nicely with Flourish).

[ushuimama]

Looking at the logs from Vimmy and the logs from Wishkin i see both went two different ways as far as builds go. Vimmy went full haste pros/sotf build and seemed to be pushing some really strong numbers and throughput. The resource tool in the logs isnt loading to see the mana burn from this build which is really unfortunate. Wiskin seems to be more Mastery built and does have the gems/enchants and seems to fall behind a bit. I think this is very interesting as far as builds go and wish testing had been more stable for better data.

Also did anyone notice how much less healing nature's essence is doing? wow thats like half of what it was in alpha testing and i dont remember that being specifically nerfed. :/ CW also is nowhere near where it was which makes the pros/sotf build (to me) more desirable unless there are super focused mechanics like Gurtoggs Fel Rage in HFC. Very interesting stuff, hope Monday's tests go much better

[Davryn]

Also worth considering that in those short pulls, mana is a non-issue so it's not surprising that the Paladin is spamming FoL and almost never casting HL, which would never be sustainable in a full encounter.

[Tiberria]

Also worth considering that in those short pulls, mana is a non-issue so it's not surprising that the Paladin is spamming FoL and almost never casting HL, which would never be sustainable in a full encounter.

But, similarly, on a short pull, a Druid would be spamming WG on CD and Rejuv with every spare GCD which would also not be sustainable.

[theburned]

Looking at the logs from Vimmy and the logs from Wishkin i see both went two different ways as far as builds go. Vimmy went full haste pros/sotf build and seemed to be pushing some really strong numbers and throughput. The resource tool in the logs isnt loading to see the mana burn from this build which is really unfortunate. Wiskin seems to be more Mastery built and does have the gems/enchants and seems to fall behind a bit. I think this is very interesting as far as builds go and wish testing had been more stable for better data.

Also did anyone notice how much less healing nature's essence is doing? wow thats like half of what it was in alpha testing and i dont remember that being specifically nerfed. :/ CW also is nowhere near where it was which makes the pros/sotf build (to me) more desirable unless there are super focused mechanics like Gurtoggs Fel Rage in HFC. Very interesting stuff, hope Monday's tests go much better

Those logs are very hard to compare though considering we had a group of 4 leaving from our side everytime, leaving our side with pretty much nothing to heal, especially considering we had 3 healers on that side until then 3 healers on 10 people and then 2 healers for 6 people does not really tell anything about the talents.
If you start comparing things from 40-60 seconds to 2 minutes +- 20 seconds you should get a way better comparision, cause otherwise you are just comparing people who decided to skip mechanics with someone who decided to not skip mechanics aswell as being a bit heavy on healers on one side.

[ushuimama]

Those logs are very hard to compare though considering we had a group of 4 leaving from our side everytime, leaving our side with pretty much nothing to heal, especially considering we had 3 healers on that side until then 3 healers on 10 people and then 2 healers for 6 people does not really tell anything about the talents.
If you start comparing things from 40-60 seconds to 2 minutes +- 20 seconds you should get a way better comparision, cause otherwise you are just comparing people who decided to skip mechanics with someone who decided to not skip mechanics aswell as being a bit heavy on healers on one side.

This is why i stated id like to see more from Monday's testing because obviously with the short pulls coupled with the lag/dc's theres no way good data can be taken. I'd love to see how the two builds differ from each other since they both offer somewhat different playstyles.

[Deleted]

You really can not count Living Seed at 100% effectiveness in any realistic calculation of the power of our heals. You always end up with significantly less effective output from Living Seed because of how it works (only healing on hit, sometimes hits aren't enough to consume it - wasting the remainder, etc.). Based on what we typically see on live, I think you would need to cut the throughput from Living Seed by at least 50% to get any realistic calculation. You also have to keep in mind that the artifact trait that brings Living Seed from 50% to 80% is likely to be the second last trait we put points in (after everything but Mark of Shifting), because you have a clear path to all the major traits without putting any points into that and it's a very weak 3 point investment. We won't have an 80% Living Seed for several months.

At any rate, at current beta values on the 110 templates.

Flash Heal - 178,371
Healing Surge (w/Tidal Waves) - 166,604
Enveloping Mist -247,588 (but costs nearly 80% more mana than other flash heals)
Flash of Light - 216,333 - with Infusion proc and including Beacon healing

Regrowth - 52,032 direct heal + 12,804 HoT
Regrowth with 60% baseline crit - 96,055
Regrowth with 100% crit from Abundance - 116,868
Regrowth with 100% crit and 50% Living Seed (at 50% effectiveness) - 142,884
Regrowth with 100% crit and 80% Living Seed (at 50% effectiveness) - 158,494

Regrowth with 100% crit and 80% Living Seed (at 50% effectiveness) + SoTF - 475,482
Holy Word Serenity - 493,602
Cenarion Ward - 245,961
Cenarion Ward with Flourish - 491,922

OK, so even if you have 100% Regrowth crit from Abundance and the 80% Living Seed trait, Regrowth is still weaker than every other Flash Heal. It's also false that SoTF - Regrowth is stronger than Serenity, it's actually worse. Getting it also eats up 2 CDs and having to use SoTF procs on Regrowth (let alone taking SoTF over Incarnation or Germination to do that) comes at a huge cost to your flexibility and group healing. Plus, it's even weaker than these numbers show, because 100% Regrowths are not going to scale with Crit at all, while every other flash heal does, meaning that they are probably all about 20%+ stronger than these numbers would indicate.

Plus, if you want burst tank healing, you're honestly probably better off just taking Cenarion Ward. It's going to give you burst that's fairly comparable to SoTF-Regrowth - especially when you factor in the interaction with Flourish and Essence of Ghanir, and it only eats up 1 talent point to get it, leaving you free to have that L60 row to have some flexibility with whatever you want to do with your healing. I just doubt Abundance is even good in 5 mans.

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And, even being behind Paladins on ~2 minute logs is a pretty huge concern, because they have a weak raid cooldown, which means that short pulls should favor Druids. Not to mention the fact that their tank healing isn't even touched by any other spec at this point since they gutted our mastery and talent tree 2 builds ago - they will be locked into every raid comp as usual.

Envoloption mist does also increase all the healing you do to that target. Probly the reason for its higher mana cost :P

[Elennoko]

So. I skimmed through the last 10 or so pages and didn't seem to find anything. What ARE our current best talent choices? Or are we in such bad shape atm that its hard to say?

[Tiberria]

So. I skimmed through the last 10 or so pages and didn't seem to find anything. What ARE our current best talent choices? Or are we in such bad shape atm that its hard to say?

There are basically 2 distinct builds/sets of talent choices to go with.

SoTF/WG build:

Prosperity - Soul of the Forest - Flourish

Stat priority - Haste > Crit > Vers > Mastery

With this build, you basically prioritize getting the most out of WG and SoTF, dialing back on Rejuv casts where necessary to make sure you can always at least cast WG with every Swiftmend if not more often. The L90 talent choice with the WG build is highly situational; you can basically go any of 3 ways, because you don't have the mastery hooks that you do in the Rejuv build that demand that you take Spring Blossoms or Cultivation. You could well take Inner Peace for better raid cooldown strength. This build becomes significantly stronger with 2 pc and 4 pc.

Rejuv build:

Cenarion Ward - Incarnation - Spring Blossoms/Cultivation - Flourish

Stat priority - Mastery > Haste > Crit > Vers

We would just take whichever of Spring Blossoms or Cultivation works better for the specific positioning/damage patterns. This build basically prioritizes using most of your mana for Rejuv spam and intelligently layering HoTs to make the most out of mastery healing. If you take Cultivation, you basically focus on using Rejuv as a triage type tool on targets that dip <60% HP, because of the instant 2 mastery stacks. If you are taking Spring Blossoms, it's either a stacked fight, or you're focusing hot coverage on the melee or some other subset of the raid that is in your Efflo. You also have CW to play with as a burst single target tool along with the Rejuv spam and general Efflo/LB/OOC maintenance. With this build, it becomes marginal as to whether WG is worth casting - at least unless you have Flourish up once a minute or during Incarnation.


Obviously, if taking the Rejuv build, we will want to try and take an artifact path that mostly avoids Wild Growth traits, and vice versa. The Rejuv build probably wants to beeline to Tranquil Mind. You get very little out of the other 2 artifact majors in that build. For the WG build, it's arguably worth going to both Power of the Archdruid and Dreamwalker first.

I think it's currently looking like the WG build is at least somewhat stronger for raiding, and it will likely become significantly stronger when we get set bonuses (assuming the bonuses aren't changed). It's actually kind of a shame because I think the WG build has less actual player interaction (you're basically relying on a smart heal), while the Rejuv style was a lot more fun to play. Unfortunately, they kind of gutted it with the talent changes.

[Elennoko]

There are basically 2 distinct builds/sets of talent choices to go with.

SoTF/WG build:

Prosperity - Soul of the Forest - Flourish

Stat priority - Haste > Crit > Vers > Mastery

With this build, you basically prioritize getting the most out of WG and SoTF, dialing back on Rejuv casts where necessary to make sure you can always at least cast WG with every Swiftmend if not more often. The L90 talent choice with the WG build is highly situational; you can basically go any of 3 ways, because you don't have the mastery hooks that you do in the Rejuv build that demand that you take Spring Blossoms or Cultivation. You could well take Inner Peace for better raid cooldown strength. This build becomes significantly stronger with 2 pc and 4 pc.

Rejuv build:

Cenarion Ward - Incarnation - Spring Blossoms/Cultivation - Flourish

Stat priority - Mastery > Haste > Crit > Vers

We would just take whichever of Spring Blossoms or Cultivation works better for the specific positioning/damage patterns. This build basically prioritizes using most of your mana for Rejuv spam and intelligently layering HoTs to make the most out of mastery healing. If you take Cultivation, you basically focus on using Rejuv as a triage type tool on targets that dip <60% HP, because of the instant 2 mastery stacks. If you are taking Spring Blossoms, it's either a stacked fight, or you're focusing hot coverage on the melee or some other subset of the raid that is in your Efflo. You also have CW to play with as a burst single target tool along with the Rejuv spam and general Efflo/LB/OOC maintenance. With this build, it becomes marginal as to whether WG is worth casting - at least unless you have Flourish up once a minute or during Incarnation.


Obviously, if taking the Rejuv build, we will want to try and take an artifact path that mostly avoids Wild Growth traits, and vice versa. The Rejuv build probably wants to beeline to Tranquil Mind. You get very little out of the other 2 artifact majors in that build. For the WG build, it's arguably worth going to both Power of the Archdruid and Dreamwalker first.

I think it's currently looking like the WG build is at least somewhat stronger for raiding, and it will likely become significantly stronger when we get set bonuses (assuming the bonuses aren't changed). It's actually kind of a shame because I think the WG build has less actual player interaction (you're basically relying on a smart heal), while the Rejuv style was a lot more fun to play. Unfortunately, they kind of gutted it with the talent changes.

I see. That is kind of unfortunate. I was never much of a fan of the WG-centric builds for the the exact reason you gave. It isn't much player control throwing out WG and it just landing on people that need it, compared to throwing HoTs around in strategic ways. Which is what makes me confused by Blizzard's whole 'class fantasy' they keep spouting. I always figured the fantasy of a resto druid WAS stacking as many HoTs on as many players imaginable. But I guess that's mistweaver's new fantasy? *Shrug*

Which of the builds do you say would end up being better for Mythic+'s? I haven't gotten to heal them yet on the beta.

[Tiberria]

I see. That is kind of unfortunate. I was never much of a fan of the WG-centric builds for the the exact reason you gave. It isn't much player control throwing out WG and it just landing on people that need it, compared to throwing HoTs around in strategic ways. Which is what makes me confused by Blizzard's whole 'class fantasy' they keep spouting. I always figured the fantasy of a resto druid WAS stacking as many HoTs on as many players imaginable. But I guess that's mistweaver's new fantasy? *Shrug*

Which of the builds would you say would end up being better for Mythic+'s? I haven't gotten to heal them yet on the beta.

I suspect that the Rejuv build with heavy mastery stacking will end up better for Mythic+. You might even end up wanting to take Germination in 5 mans over Incarnation if mana isn't much of a constraint and if Incarnation doesn't really line up well with needed healing patterns.

[Elennoko]

I suspect that the Rejuv build with heavy mastery stacking will end up better for Mythic+. You might even end up wanting to take Germination in 5 mans over Incarnation if mana isn't much of a constraint and if Incarnation doesn't really line up well with needed healing patterns.

That makes sense. Thanks for the input.

[Davryn]

I suspect that the Rejuv build with heavy mastery stacking will end up better for Mythic+. You might even end up wanting to take Germination in 5 mans over Incarnation if mana isn't much of a constraint and if Incarnation doesn't really line up well with needed healing patterns.

What about SoTF for the Swiftmend + Regrowth combo?

[Tiberria]

What about SoTF for the Swiftmend + Regrowth combo?

Nowhere near strong enough to be worth the talent investment just to do that. To take Abundance and SoTF to get Swiftmend/Regrowth, you're giving up
- Cenarion Ward - also a 30 second CD that does nearly as much total healing as SoTF - Regrowth when you factor in the synergy with Flourish every second cast.
- Incarnation, which can be a lifesaver, or Germination, which can play even further into the mastery stacking you'd want to do in a 5 man.
- Requires both the Living Seed and HT/Regrowth artifact traits to be anywhere close to on par with CW, which is a huge waste of artifact traits that you wouldn't otherwise take in a 5 man build (because the Tranq major trait isn't nearly as strong in a 5 man - so you have no reason to go down that path).

And, you can't really take SoTF to use with Regrowth without taking Abundance either, because you also need Regrowth at a 100% crit rate for the SoTF-Regrowth option to be on par/reliable. All in all, it's just an atrociously inefficient use of talents and artifact power, and isn't really a viable option. If you're taking SoTF for a 5 man, you would take it because you want more supplemental raid healing on a shorter than 3 minute CD and you feel your single target is strong enough without a Rejuv heavy build. Sure, you can use SoTF with Regrowth occasionally as an emergency heal if you do that, but taking SoTF-Abundance for that purpose is terrible. CW alone will nearly match the emergency tank throughput without costing a second talent point, gutting your raid healing, and requiring otherwise undesirable artifact traits to be taken.