Anyone else not "feeling" it?

[F1reheart]

This is not a "I quit" or "I unsubscribe" thread. I would've posted this on wow forums but I feel like it would eventually turn into that, so I came here for an actual discussion.

Legion is shaping up to be a very good xpac, I'd say 90% of it's content is well designed and will be incredibly fun to play. The story and questing is fantastic, with Suramar being an amazing zone, and all the new tech is quite cool. However a lot of this is marred by the quality of class mechanics, feel, and gameplay. It honestly does drag down most of the experience for me.

Prune 2.0 was far more severe than the first one, and really took away class identity for a lot of classes I love. The two most prominent examples would be fury warrior and frost DK. I'm gonna nitpick at a few things here to convey a general idea, try not to focus on the "nitpicking", but rather the problem that all these things create.

Fury lacks any stances, rage management, utility, or significant burst outside bladestorm. Blizzard has said they wanted fury to be more consistent damage, whereas arms is bursty. This to me is completely backwards, and mix that with the lack of class-defining abilities and any real mechanic to think about, it'll feel "watered down", and ruin the rest of your experience. Also, pooling ALL of your rage into one ability reminds me of the 2005 blizzcon panel for classes. They said something like "It wasn't fun because you were just using your abilities like a metronome, there wasn't a lot of choice or any reason to NOT hit those buttons so we added a rage bar". Legion effectively removes the need to worry about rage, by having only one ability that costs rage.

Frost overall "works" in a dps-rotation sense, as does fury. But really that's all it feels like its built around, a raid boss rotation fixed around a frost theme. Runes are condensed into 1, blood/unholy abilities removed, necromany-themed abilities effectively gone. Not even something cool like stealing souls, similar to what Arthas does.

What I'm trying to get it as Blizzard decided to completely rework classes, but instead reworked specs, which really ruined class identity. I don't feel like a warrior without stances and rage management, imo they should design around a class first then have a spec buff a certain part of that class. There's no reason to not have any sort of necromancy or control over souls as a frost *death knight*.

I could keep ranting and nitpicking for days, you might disagree with some points, but what it comes down to is classes are your gateway into the world. If they don't feel right, and if they aren't engaging enough to keep the player interested, then everything else in the game becomes just as boring. There have been plenty of threads against the prune, with MASSIVE amounts of upvotes and posts, but it doesn't seem like they're changing direction for Legion.

Does anyone else feel like this? Or am I just being really stubborn with change?

[Huntaer]

Well I certainly have a good feeling towards Legion having played the beta a little bit and tryout out some classes.
As a BM hunter, i've had to adjust a lot to the new BM spec in legion, and I'm not feeling that as good as i want to.
On the other hand, i really like the leagion UH death knight, so perhaps you could try a different class and see if that suits you.

I had the same with brewmaster monk when it changed in 6.0

[pblasque]

They wanted to make specs feel unique.

All death knights sharing lots of skills make your spec just an addition, not your role, neither it fits the spec fantasy.

For instance, Hunters:
As MM, you can choose to not have a pet;
Meanwhile, Beastmaster get to have 2 pets, because he is a beastMASTER;
In the other hand, Survival felt just a MM 2.0, now it is going to be a new spec, totally different gameplay, to fit its fantasy.

What I mean is, you may think it "destroyed" class identity, but it has made the specs to reflect your choice.

If you are a Frost DK, you are going to freeze people, make them suffer through your cold strikes. But if you had more necromancy like skills, it would rip the Unholy spec identity.

--Edit--

Another example is the Rogue, in WoD (or before), all specs are Mr. Stabby-stab. Only combat had a little difference, but it was basically the same.

What they've made is:
Assassination = master of poisons
Outlaw = a pirate (cool as fuck)
Subtlety = master of shadows

Each spec feels unique, and I'm going to roll Assassination again because I like that feeling.

[F1reheart]

But shouldn't a class come before a spec? Not the other way around? And keep in mind as I said, it's more than just one issue. Not only is the "feel" watered down, but to be honest there isnt much difference between havoc, fury, ret, frost, or windwalker. All have their base 3-4 dps abilities, maybe something you'd use in a weird situation, and MAYBE a single CC. Doesn't really feel like there's much reason to level an alt or anything, because they all play the same, despite having different themes and icons.

[pblasque]

When you want it to feel unique, each spec develops a bigger role than just your class.

Taking the DK as example:
Unholy will feel like a necromancer, but if all specs have necromancy skills, what is even the point of rolling Unholy? Because I'll get some extra on my ghoul? Nah, boring, you will pick whichever makes a higher DPS.

And the DK still has got those core skills, Death Strike/Anti-magic shell/Corpse explosion which are significant to the core class.

About the all dps feels the same, Havoc has lots of mobility, which I think only WW can be compared. Fury hasn't got the same survival skills of a Death Knight (death strike) or Ret (flash light and other sources), Frost has a good AoE dmg and CC (remorseless winter).

These are the things that make a difference for your class. But those things would feel indifferent if all specs get the same treatment.

[Ragnarocket]

They wanted to make specs feel unique.

All death knights sharing lots of skills make your spec just an addition, not your role, neither it fits the spec fantasy.

For instance, Hunters:
As MM, you can choose to not have a pet;
Meanwhile, Beastmaster get to have 2 pets, because he is a beastMASTER;
In the other hand, Survival felt just a MM 2.0, now it is going to be a new spec, totally different gameplay, to fit its fantasy.

What I mean is, you may think it "destroyed" class identity, but it has made the specs to reflect your choice.

If you are a Frost DK, you are going to freeze people, make them suffer through your cold strikes. But if you had more necromancy like skills, it would rip the Unholy spec identity.

--Edit--

Another example is the Rogue, in WoD (or before), all specs are Mr. Stabby-stab. Only combat had a little difference, but it was basically the same.

What they've made is:
Assassination = master of poisons
Outlaw = a pirate (cool as fuck)
Subtlety = master of shadows

Each spec feels unique, and I'm going to roll Assassination again because I like that feeling.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I'm playing in the beta and there are all these complaints about "losing class identity" but honestly everything I've played has felt very distinct from other things. And in terms of complexity I think people are getting worried over nothing.

I'll use the Havoc DH as a good example of complexity. At it's absolute basic max level rotation, with all passive talents, you've got two abilities you will use constantly. Demon's Bite will generate Fury and Chaos Strike will use Fury...unless it crits. You may be thinking "Gee...that rotation sounds about as exciting as watching paint dry." and I will agree, pushing those two buttons really doesn't change much except for when you go on a crit streak, which does feel kinda nice honestly.

But you have so much more that you can do, but they won't be part of your normal rotation. You can Fel Rush over to/through adds or jump backwards with Vengeful Retreat, and after that rush back in with another Fel Rush. Once you have a group of enemies lined up in a row you can Eye Beam, dealing tons of damage to everything. Everything weak but now on top of you? Hit them with a Chaos Nova and Fury of the Illidari as you strike them all down. Blade Dance if they start hitting you and then dash away. Etc. etc. etc.

My point being, you have a lot of abilities that have 8-20 second cooldowns that you'll be using frequently in fights. The Demon Hunter feels GOOD to play, even though they have only two main abilities in a rotation bar talents. If you like the idea of being able to quickly reposition, dash through enemies, and blow things up with fel energy you're going to have a good time as a Havoc DH. And none of the classes got pruned down to the level of really only having two main abilities.

My Enhancement Shaman feels amazing to play now, there's a definite idea of what that class is now rather than just a mace swinging spellcaster. The spells feel good to use and each ability enhances the impact that your basic attacks have on the enemy. Doom Winds gives you a Windfury proc even...it's just FUN to watch.

That said, if you aren't having fun don't feel like you have to stick around. No one is forcing you. I actually am coming back because I love the idea of more distinct class identities (spec identities in fact) that change up game play rather than "Well...I'm rogue and I have poisons and stab people in the back no matter what." It helps that the classes feel fun for me to play. I personally don't like the idea of mashing 20 buttons normally. I like having about 6-7 buttons on a regular/semi-regular rotation with interrupts/CC ready to go as well.

[pblasque]

perhaps you could try a different class and see if that suits you.

I agree with our pal here, maybe you like the Necromantic Death Knight, or maybe you really like the Lich King that's why you roll Frost.

Try to chose a spec that fits how you play.

- - - Updated - - -

My Enhancement Shaman feels amazing to play now, there's a definite idea of what that class is now rather than just a mace swinging spellcaster. The spells feel good to use and each ability enhances the impact that your basic attacks have on the enemy. Doom Winds gives you a Windfury proc even...it's just FUN to watch.

I'm looking forward to play with my Shaman, I've always liked enhancement, but autoattack and procs is boring =S. From what I've seen (got no beta), the Shaman has got plenty of skills to use

[F1reheart]

I agree with our pal here, maybe you like the Necromantic Death Knight, or maybe you really like the Lich King that's why you roll Frost.

Try to chose a spec that fits how you play.

I've had alpha since december, I've played many classes...all except warlock. I just used those two as a quick example to set up the idea I was trying to convey.

[Ragnarocket]

I'm looking forward to play with my Shaman, I've always liked enhancement, but autoattack and procs is boring =S. From what I've seen (got no beta), the Shaman has got plenty of skills to use

From what I've done so far it's really fun. You get to wail on people and while you still have procs there is a lot to do while you are normally fighting. You have different abilities that when you use them give you a buff to your AAs or debuff the enemy. It's kind of the definition of "Enhancing" your attacks. I am only 101 on my Enhance shaman though so I haven't gotten too far yet. I may start to find it repetitive but there are about 3-4 normal buttons, one of which is a proc you'll use often, and a couple of other ones that you can use semi-often.

[Corb]

But shouldn't a class come before a spec? Not the other way around? And keep in mind as I said, it's more than just one issue. Not only is the "feel" watered down, but to be honest there isnt much difference between havoc, fury, ret, frost, or windwalker. All have their base 3-4 dps abilities, maybe something you'd use in a weird situation, and MAYBE a single CC. Doesn't really feel like there's much reason to level an alt or anything, because they all play the same, despite having different themes and icons.

I'm not in the beta, but that's been my experience in the PTR. Some of the specs are really fun and unique (unholy DK, enhancement shaman) but most of the others feel bland and template-y if that makes any sense. Maybe artifacts resolve this, I dunno.

[pblasque]

I've had alpha since december, I've played many classes...all except warlock. I just used those two as a quick example to set up the idea I was trying to convey.

I understood that. I just don't know why you feel that way, class identity (spec mainly) has become more clear. I really liked that.

I've got bored that all specs got almost all skills.

This remembers me, I think Fury is focusing on being the raging berserker it was supposed to, headcharge to battle and maim your enemies. Not like a strategist, feels weird haha.

[Jotaux]

Well I am not feeling elemental shaman so I won't be playing that. Enhance is amazing though and I'm having a blast leveling on the beta!

[Xenyatta]

Persaonally, there are some things I miss with the classes and I do agree the pruning went a little too far but in the end, I think it is shaping up to be one of the greats if they keep the momentum going throughout like they are in the beginning. Like really give it everything they have... then I can't agree with what you're saying even though I understand it. I'm enjoying classes I haven't liked before. I'm playing new stuff. I like it.

[F1reheart]

I understood that. I just don't know why you feel that way, class identity (spec mainly) has become more clear. I really liked that.

I've got bored that all specs got almost all skills.

This remembers me, I think Fury is focusing on being the raging berserker it was supposed to, headcharge to battle and maim your enemies. Not like a strategist, feels weird haha.

The way I've seen it, everyone who dislikes a class in alpha/beta usually mains it on live. People like a class in legion that they've never played before, or rarely touched. Usually this is because you don't know what you're missing.

You say class identity has become more clear, but I couldn't disagree more. To reiterate, they removed everything fury used to be about, changed the "rotation" to be just like havoc, frost, windwalker, ret, and whatever spec I can't think of atm, attached a "holy vrykul" theme and said it's damage is going to be consistent, as opposed to arms being burst. Completely opposite of the WoW warrior I've come to know over 11 years.

[Badl1fe]

I have to agree. I've been following (don't have alpha/beta access) videos and people's streams and youtube videos, and was really excited for Legion. Then the prepatch dropped on PTR so I scrambled to download it. Most of the classes I play (warlock, mage hunter) feel incredibly boring (demo is an exception, it's fun, just really low numbers). I understand that I don't have the artifacts and it's only WoD content with Legion specs. I'm just hoping that this isn't what Legion will really feel like. Maybe I just need to try out the rest of the classes and see if something else feels better.

[Florena]

I can understand the sentiment of feeling that your spec is too simplified, too gutted. But as far as spec fantasy goes it feels stronger to me in Legion, at least as a rogue. Mages already had that down, but now I feel like the rogue specs are properly distinct. Sure I'll miss having poisons as sub, but to make specs feel more distinct, they need to have more spec specific traits and abilities, and not give a little of everything to all specs and then just amplify certain things a little. The necromantic parts of frost and blood likewise seem to be scaled back/removed so that unholy can truly shine, while they each focus on their own fortes.

As for arms and fury and burst vs consistent damage, at first yeah you would expect fury to have more burst. On the other hand, I think it can make sense this way too. Arms is a more careful warrior waiting for the opportunity to deal devastating abilities, while fury is more constantly hacking and slashing, I think that can fit spec wise.

- - - Updated - - -

I have to agree. I've been following (don't have alpha/beta access) videos and people's streams and youtube videos, and was really excited for Legion. Then the prepatch dropped on PTR so I scrambled to download it. Most of the classes I play (warlock, mage hunter) feel incredibly boring (demo is an exception, it's fun, just really low numbers). I understand that I don't have the artifacts and it's only WoD content with Legion specs. I'm just hoping that this isn't what Legion will really feel like. Maybe I just need to try out the rest of the classes and see if something else feels better.

For the classes you play, has selecting active ability talents helped at all? Part of my understanding is that you can choose mostly passive talents for a simple rotation, or if you want something more in depth, pick active talents for more buttons to manage.

[PointerToAddress]

Actually, I have the opposite reaction to it, even though I agree with you that the prune was excessive. For me it all comes down to spec identity, I think that is more important than overall class identity. You still have spells that are common between spells, it's just that they are in the minority now, the spec specific spells are more prominent. If you remember back in the transition between BC and WotLK you saw the beginning of specs being more independent and that was because most classes felt the same and it was a valid concern between many classes, while classes in itself, either by buffs of just overall utility, were being homogenized little by little. Now Blizzard took a hard look at the class AND the specs and tried to make them as different as you can. Like the above poster said, you still have some overall class abilities.

I think the problem stems more of that you could do certain stuff with your class with this abilities that were reshuffled and you couldn't anymore, but I think that has to do more with ability pruning than you don't having certain skills; if you could do the same thing as a Ghoul or Army of the Dead with Frost but with a different skill (for example: call frost vyrkul's to your aid) you wouldnt have any problem with it). At the end its just a DPS cooldown and you can do many things creative-wise with that.

[Aleksej89]

Don't expect our heroes to do all the stuff like legendary characters do (arthas...).

Our characters are lesser heroes who can specialize in only one thing/role/spec, while legends like thrall can use pretty much any spell they like.

[pblasque]

You say class identity has become more clear, but I couldn't disagree more. To reiterate, they removed everything fury used to be about, changed the "rotation" to be just like havoc, frost, windwalker, ret, and whatever spec I can't think of atm, attached a "holy vrykul" theme and said it's damage is going to be consistent, as opposed to arms being burst. Completely opposite of the WoW warrior I've come to know over 11 years.

As I said in my post, Fury is the Berserker, he will be slashing things up all the time, therefore, constant DPS makes sense. Arms is more focused, Rage management is greater, so it will have bursts.

From what I understood here, you want to say that classes with constant DPS will have a fixed rotation, and feel alike.

- - - Updated - - -

Don't expect our heroes to do all the stuff like legendary characters do (arthas...).

Our characters are lesser heroes who can specialize in only one thing/role/spec, while legends like thrall can use pretty much any spell they like.

Exactly. If we were playing the pen and paper RPG, maybe we could get more variation, because it is possible.

[l33t]

I hate prune2.0 with a passion and would love to see it burn in fire. Most of specs I've played on Beta are the shadows of their former selfs.