Artifact Weapons - Worst idea ever

[Spryte]

Love the artifact idea. No more worrying about weapon drops from raids/boxes etc.

Instead, you'll be worrying about relic drops.

[TwoNineMarine]

Frankly I'm excited.

Plus I love the grind that will be associated with it.

I'm weird like that.

[Bigbazz]

I've thought the system was shit since the first announcement, I've been on the Alpha since almost the very start (January) and It did not change my opinion and I still feel the same. I mean it's not terrible and all of these problems or issues can be fixed as quickly as a patch, catchup can be made faster and methods can be made to increase transmog options..

But really at the core I've never liked the idea of everyone being the top brass super awesome best leader, in our own little single player world all running around with the same weapon. I'd honestly rather the game was much more open to pick up and play, I don't actually like the idea of having to put masses of time into my character for power in the way that it's being done, I don't like being pushed to stick with one spec either. While it didn't affect me I hated what they did with the Legendary ring, gating massive power behind a grind and I thought it was a fucking shit excuse to get people to stay subbed while also punishing anyone coming in mid tier/expansion, this is just more of the same and it's sad.

It's a shame about Warriors losing 1handed dual wield (2hander is a requirement to cast Bloodthirst in legion, so it's not even just visual).. It's whatever at this point, we have to deal with it or just move on and play something else. A lot of people got hyped for it because "Ashbringer!!!" and the rest is history.

Beyond that regarding alts and offspecs, I'm fairly sure the more-AP-per-week mechanic isn't actually in the beta yet, and a large amount of AP items are still scaled based on the old numbers. Lots of things give 10-20AP and aren't effected by Artifact Knowledge, I have to assume this is a bug or an oversight. Even with that I'm not finding it too hard to keep up on multiple specs, one will be slightly less developed but most of the traits aren't really that game breaking..

The concern is valid early on, Blizzard aren't good at balancing the dps numbers and they've never been able to do it well, it probably hit a peak some time in 2009/2010 in WOTLK and has been worse since. This is relevant because according to a Blizzard post, during Mythic raiding progression of the first tier you will not yet have a single fully levelled artifact on your account, that means if your spec is shit because of balancing (and history shows us this will be a certainty for some specs) then you will need to play another spec.

The issue artifacts pose is that the traits are actually so strong that switching spec will not fix the problem until artifacts are levelled. I've done raid testing with and without artifact traits and the difference is massive, in the region of 100-200% dps difference.

[Quixotica]

It was mentioned in one of the interviews that they plan on having skins which are different weapons types. If they do this, they can make a skin for every type you can use and thus you can transmog everything you used to. Not sure if this is already done or not.

And to all your other points: Luckily most people don't raid or PvP (high end) and aren't bothered with min/maxing various specs and alts. I have 11 level 100 alts, none of which I raid with and I'm very happy to be able to do 33 artifact questlines and it's not a problem at all that my main's 2nd and 3rd spec artifacts are at 95% and my alts at 80%.

So does that mean we will be able to transmog 1H/Offhand into a Staff and vice versa, etc.?

As a Demonology main I was so disappointed to be locked out of my Golden Staff of the Sin'dorei transmog that I've been using for years...

[Vynestra]

Artifact weapons are pretty awesome, coming from someone in beta.

Maybe some of the design stuff isn't the best, but for the most part, they're awesome.

[cuafpr]

it will be interesting to see the majorities reaction to the grind at 110..... i'm sure blizz has a few plans to shift things if / as needed.

[Maudib]

My additions are in bold, but i gotta say, these are some of the stupidist arguments ive seen towards artifacts...

You realize you are misinformed.. right?

the catch up mechanics dont work on the beta so shut up, each week EVERYONE will get a % increase on artifact power, and you will get research notes, increasing it even more, every other day, so leveling artifacts for alts/offspecs will become super easy later

This is wrong. Each week everyone will NOT get a % increase in AP. Ion stated each week they will REDUCE the time it takes to research the Artifact Power tomes. http://legion.wowhead.com/items/name...ncient+weapons shows there are 11 tomes atm.

In the beginning it will take 5 days to research a tome, then 4, then 3, etc... at least that is what he SAID... they could very well change to longer or shorter... though he said it would start from day 1... I doubt it HIGHLY...

getting the early artifact points is super easy, stuff costs like 100-1000 at max, and that is super easy

The first 13 points cost 6500 total... the 14th costs 6880.. more than the first 13 combined. It will be easy to get 13 points.. from there you have to choose if you are going to commit to your main spec... or be a scrub and run LFR for all of Legion.

you do know this expansion has give us the highest amount of weapon models BY FAR OF ANY OTHER

Not really... if you buy that crap about every iteration maybe... but recolor is not a model. Not sure what you based your "by far of any other" from, but it sure doesn't feel like it.

[Niwes]

1. You can still transmog the correct weapon type so your point that they cannot be transmogged is invalid.
2. Are you surmising that there will be too many tanks and not enough good ones? Welcome to any xpac of WoW.
3. This is just completely false and you clearly have no idea that over time, all artifact power gains are increased. You can start the game 6 months late, and level up your weapon at the same rate as current players, without having to grind hard like they did at the start.
4. Alts gain artifact power at the same rate as the main, which is nerfed every week of Legion to become easier and easier.
5. There is nothing about artifacts that gets harder for a pure dps to change spec vs a hybrid.
6. This is conspiracy theory that Blizz will just decide to stop tuning, even though that has never been the case in any prior xpac.
7. Nothing about alt chars is changed by Legion. Even in WoD, if your alt is not geared, that is a problem.

There, I took the time to point out what you already knew was a text wall of BS.

its absurd how stupid you are. sorry. but you wether understand the points mentioned correct, nor you seem to really read anything. you answer things that no one said so. and you comment things that you not in the slightest have understood, or what your opponent was really saying. dont know what to say when talkin to someone that stupid as you. sorry.

[FelPlague]

You realize you are misinformed.. right?



This is wrong. Each week everyone will NOT get a % increase in AP. Ion stated each week they will REDUCE the time it takes to research the Artifact Power tomes. http://legion.wowhead.com/items/name...ncient+weapons shows there are 11 tomes atm.

In the beginning it will take 5 days to research a tome, then 4, then 3, etc... at least that is what he SAID... they could very well change to longer or shorter... though he said it would start from day 1... I doubt it HIGHLY...



The first 13 points cost 6500 total... the 14th costs 6880.. more than the first 13 combined. It will be easy to get 13 points.. from there you have to choose if you are going to commit to your main spec... or be a scrub and run LFR for all of Legion.



Not really... if you buy that crap about every iteration maybe... but recolor is not a model. Not sure what you based your "by far of any other" from, but it sure doesn't feel like it.

1, how so?

2, ok the exact i was confused, but same idea, more artifact power coming in some way each week

3. yes, getting that first 6500 is easy, i got my 6500 just before max level, and by that point you should be able to decide

4. every iteration? ok lets not count reskins then

36 specs, 6 unique weapon models per spec, 216 unique weapon models... oh wait offhands too so... 265 (as vengence has 2 unique weapon models for one artifact skin)

so in the expansion we have 265 unique weapon models, not including recolours, now it will take abit but i will count (if i can) all the weapon skins from cataclysm for example to see

cataclysm all raids included had 70 unique weapon models

wod, dungeons, CM, raids, pvp, 176 unique weapon models

[Niwes]

So you like the system (?) but not the fact it's tied to a weapon? How wuold be different if it was on a wrist for example (except for trasmog issue)? I mean, all your concerns wuold be the same.

thats just the half what i said. look on page 2. i said i dont like the linking to an active item (a wrist is the same), the strong dependency, and the size of power of it.

when you deal with endgame progression stuff, you should do many small brackets, instead one big bracket, on which everything is heavily dependent.

as another guy said: you could also do such a system with currency and gear. but every gear item is just a 1/16 step of your power. and the step from a upgrade of one to another item is even smaller. you want a flat and sustain ramp up in progression, not a bursty and high one.

example: if that system would not be locked directly to gear (and therefore also tmog), is bound to your whole character (all specs), and you have an independent talent tree (traits) for all your specs, and slowly progress the power of that extra system over time (incl throttled catch up to 100% for alts) i would have no problem with it.

that game needs such an endgame progression system. thats all fine and i am happy we have such a system in Legion. but its the wrong design on what they set it up. thats what i say.

if i would use a design like that as a final progression path in my software, my customers would kill me. bc its fail. blizz wasnt smart enough, to accomplish a better design base for their endgame progression solution.

they wanted to do something fancy and started with style things like artifact weapons to hype for Legion. but they didnt thought the whole design to the end. thats the reason why they now have to implement other artifacts to solve the mog problem, or implement class trials to solve the "how can i test my heavy artifact-based class without a artifact wpn in the first 20 levels." thing.

they just didnt think far ahaed. thats obvious for every designer or software/systems architect. thats all.

[roahn the warlock]

5)
pure dps
with artifact weapons, pures become totally useless. the most interessting fact in pures, is to be ultra flexible and customizable in raid fights. since your other specs have max 80% artifact weapon power after catchup (like blizz said 1 week ago), its useless to play a pure. you are even MORE pure, when you play i.e. a ret paladin, because this is his only dps spec, so blizz have to look that he is all around working. an example: lets say you are a frost mage. and frost sucks on 70% of the fights ? what you do ? ofc, blizzard will say (as always) "but you have fire and arcane as alternatives.". they cant say that to a ret or a shadow. so, rollin a pure is gambling in Legion. thats horrible.
r.

Pretty much 100% this. I won't be playing a pure class in Legion, it will be a totally random lottery on if my spec is good or not.

[Yizu]

@OP Your SIG says you are "Pro-Legacy / Pro-Pristine". I really really find it ironic that you would whine something about not being able to transmog, pures not being flexible, hard to gear up/catch up with alts, blizz not able to balance classes and so on.

REALLY?? I MEAN REALLY????????

[Niwes]

Artifacts look ok to me for one expansion. Definitely worth a shot, and the last thing you want is Blizz being afraid to ever try anything new or interesting. Sometimes the idea will be great - sometimes not. We won't know with artifacts until the expac is over ... but they don't look bad to me at this point.

i agree 100%. but i had put the system on top of another design base. ofc its better than having nothing. and literally everything is better than wod. but thats also not the discussion here.

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I´m in the beta and I´m getting a lot of fun with the artifact weapon, maybe its not too friendly for off specs and alts, but for the main spec is really fun for me.

i am happy too, to progress something at endgame. besides tmog, ofc there is no problem, if you just play 1 spec. always. but i cant imagine that a lot of i.e. pures will meet that circumstances. but who knows.

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@OP Your SIG says you are "Pro-Legacy / Pro-Pristine". I really really find it ironic that you would whine something about not being able to transmog, pures not being flexible, hard to gear up/catch up with alts, blizz not able to balance classes and so on.

REALLY?? I MEAN REALLY????????

this argument is really fair. there is truth in your argument, i agree.

but my point of view there is not the same like yours:

what i was most happy about in vanilla, and bc, was the absence of any legendary quest line, legendary cloak or legendary ring. in a simple sense it was way more alt friendly than today. waaaaay more. in my oppinion.

ofc, the questing was longer. you need a second gear set and so on. but in my perspective, i had more fun when actively playin an alt through questing and raiding, instead of farming a legendary quest the x time. my most horrible times with alts was mop and wod. by far. i am happy about the fact that in Legion at least there are class order hall story lines and a little bit more infrequent world quests with more variation.

let me say a few words to catch up mechanics. yes, i said i dont like the catch up for artifacts to 80%. but generally, i would have no catch up at all. instead i would love to be able to just raid and progress a character again through all raid tiers. thats actively playin an alt. and thats the fun of the whole game. but (like blizz realized years ago) you have 2 problems here: too few ppl playin alts, so you have nobody to raid with through the progression. second: if you want switch in actual progression a char for your guild etc, you need catch up mechanisms. so, no solution other than catch ups ? no. if blizz would invest the time/effort into their reward structure and scaling mechanics, you could prohress old raids for new items. and with scaling you could do that with ppl playing actual progression (ie your guild). technology-wise there is no problem here. but blizz never had invested time and effort in such a system. and it would solve sooo many problems. just think a few mins about it.

but my pro pristine is (in my perspective) nowhere against my point of view here, besides tmog. with tmog you are absolutelly right. i no more wanna running around like a clown like in vanilla. but ofc there are other reasons too, why i liked vanilla. its not just this points here. so ofc the one thing dont necessarily have to exclude the other thing as a whole.

and just as a side note, bc obviously some ppl do not seem to understand that: you can like 2 things at the same time. retail AND vanilla. it really isnt that mutually exclusive. at least for me.

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1. But...you can transmog your artifact weapon! ....right? Wasn't that stated at gamescom, blizzcon or so?

2. LOL! We make desisions. For example, do I want to main a shaman because of the fucking doomhammer, or should I main paladin because ashbringer is fucking OP?!

3. Idk what you're saying. But it's been 6-8 months since alpha went, and before ebta came I was no where near cap. And even now I am NOT EVEN close to capped. -__- Also, I seem to be having fun with my ashbringer thank you!

4. I do not care about the alt trouble and grinding, since that's what I think makes a game good, something to atleast do. So, if you hate the whole alt unfriendliness, it might affect you...but not me. Again, why should I agree with you thinking that this is a bad idea if all humans have differing opinions? If I think this is a good idea, I shouldn't post a massive ass thread about it only for people to post about how much their opinion differs.

5. Ok, so maybe 1 spec is better than the other, so what? Can you expect an ilvl 806 warrior to beat up a fully mythic geared ilvl 870 mage? NO! There's no purity in that, and there certainly wasn't purity ages ago.

6. Balancing is a problem now? I love that you say balancing is a problem with the artifact weapons in legion, when balancing has been fucked up since the beginning of WOW in general. As a former grand marshal in WOW, I can confirm!

7. Ok, if raid organization is a problem for you, then your guild must have some low players. Sometimes you need to work in order to find the best people for a raid. It was like that in vanilla, but only now in legion...it's with artifact power.

So, in short, there are people that hate this idea, but there are some people that love this idea (Like myself). So, if you want to make a massive ass thread about this, then go ahead. BUT, just be warned that people have their own opinions, and might not want to listen to your opinion. We all have choices, do not let people get forced to accept your outminded opinion just because you made a thread about it, thinking blizzard is gonna read this on a FAN website. If you want to talk about it, go ahead, but please make sure it's on the World of Warcraft site. (That site is where blizzard can read your ideal opinions, and that site helps you from getting this thread locked).

this text is so full of nonsense, that i not even try to start arguing.

maybe just with 1 line for your point 6: and you think 36 trait systems with 36 artifact wpns and relics make things better here ? wow. you are really a grand marchall.

and why the hell u are on that psycho "you want me to addopt your oppinion" trip ? your post look like a panic squirell runnin around "omg he wanna change my mind, omg omg". i have absolutelly no interest in chamging anyones oppinion. not in the slightest. nowhere i ever stated that. dont know what drugs you are on, but you are very weird.

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i changed the thread title to a little bit less agressive choice of words. i agree that "worst idea ever" really miss the point.

but at the same time, the discussion is closed for me. i am shocked how many posts in this thread are just unbelivable stupid hate posts, most of them from ppl that like the new artifact wpn system (what is fine), but acting like some psycho white knights, reacting without any differentiation (what is not fine).

dont missunderstand me: i am totally fine with ppl liking this system. i also like it to have an endgame progression system. i just do not like its design here. thats all. but when i see a thread full of hatred posts, without any arguments, going rage just because someone do not like what they like, then its time to go. maybe the thread title was a little bit involved there, but not THAT much.

ofc, i must calculate with that, when posting on mmoc. but that amount ? that primal stupid aggro and hate ? no. thats not what i expected. at the moment i am very happy to not have to play wow with randoms, when this ppl are the 2016 community.

there were also some really clear and straight posts here. pro and cons. thanks to this ppl, who acting civilized, stated their oppinions and gave arguments or just tried to convince me or showing me their point of view. thank you for that.

but for the above mentioned ones: i have nothing in common with you. and i have no interests to talk with you. not even on a simple internet forum.

good night.

[TheFirstOnes]

Ok...I saw your post...and now I feel quite bad now!

EDIT: I updated my shit response because I didn't read it all!

[Deleted]

but at the same time, the discussion is closed for me. i am shocked how many posts in this thread are just unbelivable stupid hate posts, most of them from ppl that like the new artifact wpn system (what is fine), but acting like some psycho white knights, reacting without any differentiation (what is not fine).

No worries. General forums are filled with a lot of casual players who cannot even comprehend playing on multiple specs/alts in high-end game and are hyped by whatever blizzard/legacy dudes tell them :P I completely agree with your point and also had the best times pre-mop when legendaries were not mandatory. I guess there is no point talking much about it here since everything is set in stone and the few people and guilds who truly play on higher than lfr-level will soon realize what's going on... and blizzard will either make a radical cut like they made with WoD after realizing garrisons were crap and focus on next exp or they will intervene somehow and try to loosen the impact in some way.

[Deleted]

It's funny that no one has mentioned the fact, that blizzard can add catch up stuff in content patches

[Yizu]

No worries. General forums are filled with a lot of casual players who cannot even comprehend playing on multiple specs/alts in high-end game and are hyped by whatever blizzard/legacy dudes tell them :P I completely agree with your point and also had the best times pre-mop when legendaries were not mandatory. I guess there is no point talking much about it here since everything is set in stone and the few people and guilds who truly play on higher than lfr-level will soon realize what's going on... and blizzard will either make a radical cut like they made with WoD after realizing garrisons were crap and focus on next exp or they will intervene somehow and try to loosen the impact in some way.

OP is a legacy dude, check his post history. He just doesnt run out of stuff to whine about. Trust me if blizz made easy artifact weapons on all alts, like what he is suggesting, he will be the 1st one here to qq, "OMFG blizz theres nothing to do now, i geard all my alts with full artifact weapons, qq theres no sense of progression qq it wasnt like this in vanilla, GIEF ME LECACY SERVERS OMGGGG".

He has ALOT of conflicting replies. His sig says "Pro-Legacy / Pro-Pristine", yet he whines about not being able to transmog, and bad class balancing. Then hes talking about how players will burnout, "doing stuff all over again on an alt". Then another reply he was talking about that"every alt should have to progress on highmaul, BRF before jumping to HFC ". See im REALLY REALY confused by all this, like seriously.

It's funny that no one has mentioned the fact, that blizzard can add catch up stuff in content patches

^^ THIS

[Amerissis]

So does that mean we will be able to transmog 1H/Offhand into a Staff and vice versa, etc.?

As a Demonology main I was so disappointed to be locked out of my Golden Staff of the Sin'dorei transmog that I've been using for years...

If they do what they said, yeah, but I'm not in beta and I think they haven't done this yet

[Maudib]

36 specs, 6 unique weapon models per spec, 216 unique weapon models... oh wait offhands too so... 265 (as vengence has 2 unique weapon models for one artifact skin)

so in the expansion we have 265 unique weapon models, not including recolours, now it will take abit but i will count (if i can) all the weapon skins from cataclysm for example to see

cataclysm all raids included had 70 unique weapon models

wod, dungeons, CM, raids, pvp, 176 unique weapon models

And if you are an arcane mage... you have.. a staff... 6 models to choose from ONCE you unlock them. No other new staves will drop in the expansion. In previous expansions, you could use a staff, a sword and an offhand, a wand and an offhand. So when you look at the diversity of gear that you COULD earn.. and COULD wear... the number of unique options to you were greater before than now. I'm not talking transmogs.. I am talking new, potentially exciting models you can equip.

How many wands, spellblades, staves and offhands dropped in Cata raids, dungeons, open world? THey made LESS models but gave us MORE choice and more goals to go after.

Now we have ONE choice... 6 options for looks... but put a lot more effort into it? Who did that serve well?

[FelPlague]

And if you are an arcane mage... you have.. a staff... 6 models to choose from ONCE you unlock them. No other new staves will drop in the expansion. In previous expansions, you could use a staff, a sword and an offhand, a wand and an offhand. So when you look at the diversity of gear that you COULD earn.. and COULD wear... the number of unique options to you were greater before than now. I'm not talking transmogs.. I am talking new, potentially exciting models you can equip.

How many wands, spellblades, staves and offhands dropped in Cata raids, dungeons, open world? THey made LESS models but gave us MORE choice and more goals to go after.

Now we have ONE choice... 6 options for looks... but put a lot more effort into it? Who did that serve well?

yeah no... because you never chose your weapon, for example all of wod, i used a staff, at no point did i switch over to main hand off hand, 99% of people will ussauly use the exact same type of weapon for a whole expansion

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If they do what they said, yeah, but I'm not in beta and I think they haven't done this yet

no you cannot, you can only mog a dagger to it, and yes it sucks we cant use a staff, but if the BIS item for demo was a dagger and offhand and you got it, you would be i nthe same place anyways