[Enhancement] Future Legion Resources

[Dembian]

i don't understand why they chose 8% attack power down from 20%.

8% is such a random number why not just do 10% lol

[nazrakin]

the maelstrom reduction would only makes you spend less on lava lash and more rockbiter, you're still using an ability. the problem you're probably trying to point out is the change in mastery, which i dont think is a huge change as of yet (still remains to be seen). its harder to see the effect of changes when its multiple different ones but the change to maelstrom wouldnt have affected using stormstrike or our other abilities, just a simple, less lava lash, more rockbiter.

the biggest effect change is to boulderfist and this actually fixes the talent to its intended design. i'm not going to act like these aren't huge changes and i kinda expect more to come.

sn: the artifact will undoubtedly increase maelstorm generation, there's gathering of maelstrom and windstrikes
sn2: i feel making windfury proc maelstorm would be a good change.

No, the malestrom reduction has a dramatic effect on all spenders. SS, LL, Healing, AE, Purge... which means that not only does this harm the pacing of the dps rotation but it also impacts our already precarious surviability and utility package. Im not using LL at all because I dont generate enough resources to dump. Im getting stormbringer procs overwriting stormbringer procs because I simply cant generate the resources required to use it fast enough. Doomwinds was the best thing to ever happen to Windfury, it gave us a nice resource tool that had great feedback thanks to the malestrom generation. Now its just an invisible damage proc that you may as well remove from your bar and macro in to other skills. They solved the issue of malestrom waste by essentially introducing ability waste.

[Razecog]

Can't really care less about damage numbers on beta but the playstyle change is a godsend. Found the spec to be 10 times more enjoyable after the patch.

[Sarkol]

Can't really care less about damage numbers on beta but the playstyle change is a godsend. Found the spec to be 10 times more enjoyable after the patch.

I find it better too, though they should dial it back just slightly and tune some things. Feels great suddenly having a resource again, and not actually devaluing our best ability by spamming it constantly.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

feels so slow on ptr, with this current level of maelstrom generation there is no way we will be viable for pvp

[Gryzvwald]

I'm cautiously optimistic, really. Yes, they could screw us up--but I'm the sort of person who will hold out hope until the very end. Feels less toxic than constant doomsaying.

The constant doomsaying is with good reason. We've been lied to many times by Blizzard over the years. Especially Eyonix and the Shock Bus fiasco.

[Darleth]

After seeing the nerfs I was like "WHYYYYY"
After testing said nerfs I'm like "WHYYYYYY????"

No honestly, we deserved a nerf. Im not so sure if slowing down EVERYTHING is the right way to go though. Tested the level 15 Talent Row and, not really surprising, boulderfist is still the best talent, not by a lot though, but taking into consideration that proccs are a thing, there is sometimes a slight difference.
Did some longer testing on my favorite raiddummy in OG. Tested all the level 15 talents only. Actually surprised, Hot Hands isn't that much worse than I thought.... Windsong though still needs some help. Take everything with a grain of salt please.

Other talents were: Ancestral Swiftness, Tempest, Crashing Storm, Landslide





Im not so sure if thats really the intended design. Every single talent choice (at least in that case) feels quite slow in terms of gameplay. The only thing that basically changes is: do you want to press rockbiter all the time or do you want to press boulderfist every few seconds after it gains a charge? Dunno what to think about it currently.

[Kaluna]

feels so slow on ptr, with this current level of maelstrom generation there is no way we will be viable for pvp

PTR is not the place where you test it.
It is tuned for 110 with a good progression on the artifact.
All the feedback from ptr and pre patch is the cause of the horrible hotfix they did 2 days after 6.0.

I do prefer the gamestyle now. At least maelstorm means something.

[BiggestNoob]

Even if they add the maelstrom generation back to WF procs, it's still going to be fairly starved for things like using Healing Surge ever, or hitting LL much at all. You'll have dogs + DW which will overcap you and then 20 seconds later you'll be just sitting around not using anything because you want to spend SS's when you get them, and then you'll actually use LL if you don't have SS procs again at 45 when you DW again. During DW you're likely going to get SS resets so you'd be spending spare Maelstrom on that.

I'd rather they just remove LL at this point if maelstrom generation is meant to be a thing that's so constraining that you have to pool near cap just to spend SS procs and maintain your enhancements. We need to be maelstrom positive in general in order to get LLs or we'll have substantial downtime with Boulderfist or spend too much time spamming Rockbiter, and in that case having LL as an ability seems rather pointless. As well as half of our talents. Just prune it all if we're going to be a resource starved melee caster. Balance had this problem and the community there is too stupid to understand that having more generation = more diversity in playstyles, if you're this constrained you just can't use certain talents because they cost resources you don't have.

Im not so sure if thats really the intended design. Every single talent choice (at least in that case) feels quite slow in terms of gameplay. The only thing that basically changes is: do you want to press rockbiter all the time or do you want to press boulderfist every few seconds after it gains a charge? Dunno what to think about it currently.

Try using Hailstorm. It's a pretty large DPS gain on that row ST and it's what made HH pull ahead of Boulderfist for me.

[garonne]

After seeing the nerfs I was like "WHYYYYY"
After testing said nerfs I'm like "WHYYYYYY????"

No honestly, we deserved a nerf. Im not so sure if slowing down EVERYTHING is the right way to go though. Tested the level 15 Talent Row and, not really surprising, boulderfist is still the best talent, not by a lot though, but taking into consideration that proccs are a thing, there is sometimes a slight difference.
Did some longer testing on my favorite raiddummy in OG. Tested all the level 15 talents only. Actually surprised, Hot Hands isn't that much worse than I thought.... Windsong though still needs some help. Take everything with a grain of salt please.

Other talents were: Ancestral Swiftness, Tempest, Crashing Storm, Landslide





Im not so sure if thats really the intended design. Every single talent choice (at least in that case) feels quite slow in terms of gameplay. The only thing that basically changes is: do you want to press rockbiter all the time or do you want to press boulderfist every few seconds after it gains a charge? Dunno what to think about it currently.

is this with the pvp made copy? or your own lvled character?

[Darleth]

is this with the pvp made copy? or your own lvled character?

PvP made copy. Im way too lazy to farm my artifact weapon to get all the traits. There are 2 reasons I'm not a theorycrafter:
1. I suck at math, 2. I'm too lazy for that stuff. I just try to test as much as possible and give feedback as best I can.

Imo: DPS wise only the usage of lava lash got shortened a bit. We're pooling much more and have a easier time reacting to Storm Strike proccs... other than that I found myself keeping buffs and CL up.

Try using Hailstorm. It's a pretty large DPS gain on that row ST and it's what made HH pull ahead of Boulderfist for me.

Gonna try it out after I had breakfast.

[Marxman]

From official beta forums:

To clarify a few things:
--This build caught the middle of a few changes. Next build, Maelstrom Weapon will affect autoattacks and Windfury attacks. That should keep Windfury relevant to the rotation, but still leave Maelstrom generation lower than before (which we found to be too high). In addition, there is no longer the confusing and unnecessary fact that Stormstrike and Lava Lash both spent and generated Maelstrom.
--There's no intended change to Feral Spirits; that's a tooltip bug.
--The rotation with Boulderfist is meant to be Maelstrom-limited (i.e., it should have open GCD's, unlike the usual rotation). After Maelstrom Weapon is working properly, we'll see if the Boulderfist rotation is correct as far as pacing, and can tune the damage from there.

I still think MP generation will be a bit low with this change, but this should be much better than the current build.

[garonne]

From official beta forums:


I still think MP generation will be a bit low with this change, but this should be much better than the current build.

with windfury generating we'll have way more maelstrom, almost double actually. windfury procs a lot and its 3 hits

[Marxman]

with windfury generating we'll have way more maelstrom, almost double actually. windfury procs a lot and its 3 hits

Entirely possible. We'll find out.

[garonne]

Quote Originally Posted by Sigma
To clarify a few things:
--This build caught the middle of a few changes. Next build, Maelstrom Weapon will affect autoattacks and Windfury attacks. That should keep Windfury relevant to the rotation, but still leave Maelstrom generation lower than before (which we found to be too high). In addition, there is no longer the confusing and unnecessary fact that Stormstrike and Lava Lash both spent and generated Maelstrom.
--There's no intended change to Feral Spirits; that's a tooltip bug.
--The rotation with Boulderfist is meant to be Maelstrom-limited (i.e., it should have open GCD's, unlike the usual rotation). After Maelstrom Weapon is working properly, we'll see if the Boulderfist rotation is correct as far as pacing, and can tune the damage from there.

so, as said, more iterations. the windfury change will be a good bonus
and as said before, boulderfist should have open gcd.
all in all need more testing but feel these changes should be good and then they can tune damage accordingly.

- - - Updated - - -

Entirely possible. We'll find out.

on a 5 min and 30 sec fight, i had 230 melee hits and 183 windfury hits.

doomwinds makes us proc windfury. so its good gameplay

[Sarkol]

With that update on the beta forum, it's looking really good. Boulderfist is actually looking like it's going to do what it was intended to do, finally. The resource will actualy matter also.

[BiggestNoob]

With that update on the beta forum, it's looking really good. Boulderfist is actually looking like it's going to do what it was intended to do, finally. The resource will actualy matter also.

That doesn't make any sense. You'll be aiming to have enough MP to spend SS procs and that's already hard enough. You have LL which will rarely be used (it doesn't hit very hard anyway) and tons of talents that you can't use because they put you way way way way way way way over your MP budget. So I can't imagine that's anywhere close to a good design.

We had other talents, all of which were usable with the previous MP generation, but most of them weren't tuned well, and now they're completely unusable because you just can't ever use the abilities, and on top of that they aren't anywhere close to comparable to the best in row talents per GCD let alone per MP (where they're woefully inadequate now, and that didn't matter before because MP was less constrained).

This spec is going to be even more cookie cutter, less interesting, and much more rotationally boring, regardless of your talents. Even with MW affecting WF. That's not a good thing.

[Darleth]

2nd test with hailstorm instead of AS.



Had issues with Maelstrom most of the time because of rebuffing and procc-management. Couldn't use a lot of Crash Lightning because of it - definitely need to either pick another talent or actually miss out on CL-cd's. Feels a lot slower for me personally, especially with rockbiter. With Wolves out you have enough maelstrom for the 15 seconds, afterwards it gets pretty slow again.

On another note: Hailstorm's damage feels good. It feels way more balanced now.

The Windfury Change that'll happen is a good thing. At least gives us more to do. Otherwise we're probably just getting told that "haste/mastery will fix it"

Edit: @Plastkin: I cant really replicate the huge dps gain. Care to share your results?

[Deleted]

If we have 150 maelstrom now and when windfury gonna give mealstrom, what about using doom winds at the start, generate +100 mealstrom and try to keep it high for unexpected Stormbringer proc? If we have resource, we have to play around it, before this patch it was almost ignored.

I always support playstyle where you have to think what you are doing. We need more adjustments but it's going the right way.

Edit : Just tried it on PTR, and even with Windsong/Hailstorm/Overcharge/Earthen Spike I can easly manage rotation. When windfury gonna give Maelstrom it would be in right place, maybe even too much. I could go over 100 maelstrom sometimes, with all of these active skills with high server latency (harder rockbiter spam).

With Boulderfist it may be a bit slower, but from the beginning it had to fulfil this role. Funny how people want to use Boulderfist in the same way as Rockbiter.

[Darleth]

If we have 150 maelstrom now and when windfury gonna give mealstrom, what about using doom winds at the start, generate +100 mealstrom and try to keep it high for unexpected Stormbringer proc? If we have resource, we have to play around it, before this patch it was almost ignored.

I always support playstyle where you have to think what you are doing. We need more adjustments but it's going the right way.

Should use one Storm Strike before activating Doom Winds to not miss a cooldown. I guess that's their overall intention with the specc though, to be pooling more maelstrom power than before, to make it easier to react to SS resets. I'm fine with that if we actually have enough maelstrom power to support it, doesn't matter which talent is chosen, but currently it feels just waaaaay to slow imo. Of course with the upcoming change that windfury gives us maelstrom again, that might change. Gotta wait for the next build I guess.