20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Deleted]

I lol'd.

You are right, but thats not how people actually act is it. Its keep up or fuck off.

that maybe the reason most people don't down all bosses on mythic?

[Deleted]

that maybe the reason most people don't down all bosses on mythic?

Its more the reason why most players don't want to raid at all, tbh.

[Deleted]

Its more the reason why most players don't want to raid at all, tbh.

So idiot raidleaders are the reason why people don't raid... so nothing Blizzard can do about it.

[Deleted]

So idiot raidleaders are the reason why people don't raid... so nothing Blizzard can do about it.

They could make raids hilsariously easy, but no. If they want progression and things like mythic mode, that will select for assholes, which will keep normal people out of raiding.

[Cynep]

"10-man cannot be allowed to exist because 10 and 25 fights need to happen in different-sized rooms to be interesting and balanced, and creating rooms is the most expensive part of WoW development".

This is not an assertion that comes off as self-evidently correct.

Yeah it wasn't immediately evident, I too was cheering at the start of Wrath when all raids received a casual 10-man mode; not so much in Cata though. What we have now is a return to Wrath raid system where 20-mans are a tier above 10-mans, with added bonus that in casual mode you're not limited to 10 and can take any number of people.

[Osmeric]

They could make raids hilsariously easy, but no. If they want progression and things like mythic mode, that will select for assholes, which will keep normal people out of raiding.

If the game design is such that there is incentive to be an asshole, we can reasonably conclude that the devs are designing the game for themselves, and that they are assholes.

[Joozt]

Success.

Small guilds should just merge if they want to do mythic.
And for the love of god remove normal mode (and LFR)...

[Deleted]

Hi boyz!

From a raiders perspective, was 20 man mythic raiding a success or failure in your eyes?

Should they have kept the 25 man setup for the highest form of raiding, or do you like the 20 man format now?

Remember, in vanilla we had 20 man raids that were extremely fun: ZG, AQ20

Remember, those raids were useless pretty fast.
Still, 20man mythic is a success. Less people means easier to point out weak links, progress was less about stupidity of raiders.

[Raiju]

Remember, those raids were useless pretty fast.
Still, 20man mythic is a success. Less people means easier to point out weak links, progress was less about stupidity of raiders.

No raid in vanilla or TBC was useless 'fast' as the old stuff remained content for many guilds throughout the entire expansion. The 'ignore previous tier' concept was brought with wrath, and arguably 'perfected' in cataclysm. By MoP we had practically 0 reason to run a previous tier bar 1 overtuned trinket.

[Jaylock]

If the game design is such that there is incentive to be an asshole, we can reasonably conclude that the devs are designing the game for themselves, and that they are assholes.

Normal+ raiding arent even designed for "elite" players. Each difficulty is tuned so even a caveman can do it with enough practice. Stop equating higher difficulty to catering to "assholes." Its just that you are jealous of anyone else better than you so you have to lash out.

[Szeeshan]

It was a success in some aspects, but a failure in others as well.

[pyrogfx]

It probably achieved what Blizzard wanted, so I guess in their eyes is a success.

In my (as in my guild's) situation however... We're a social guild on a dead server cluster. Half the team is good, the other half a bit on the lower side, but not horrible. We dont go for servers first or so, but we always fully cleared the last raid on the highest difficulty at least on 10 man, before the next expansion hit.
Now, with 20m mythic, what happens is we clear up to heroic with relative ease (we killed Archi HC before the item upgrades hit, for example), with a team of 14-15 decent people. Then, we were stuck recruiting to reach 20 people for MONTHS. We get 2 new people, 2 of the old ones decide to go on a break. When we finally got our 20 ready (after like 6 months of recruiting and gearing people all over again), we breezed thru the first 5 bosses on mythic within 3 weeks or so (mostly cuz at this point we raided 2 days/week + doing manno/archi hc for upgrades/trinkets within those 2 days).
Then, before we even got to progress on gorefiend, summer, exams, expansion boredom hit, and we're stuck with 13 people again. In a server like ours at this point, it's over for us for now.

I understand the need for 20m fixed ammount for the more serious, world first race and first few months of a raid - however I see no reason not to enable a 10man mode, or just turning it into flex-mode, after say, 6 months of a raid tier. Races are over, let the rest have some fun. No one's gonna claim they're awesome because of it.

Mythic takes 5% of the raid dev teams time overall, they said. Some slight adjustments to accomodate flex? It cant be much. And being barred from content due to logistics (specially on a dead server), rather than due to skill or lack thereof, when it would be so easy to just go in and at least do SOMETHING, even if a few months later... it just drives people away even more, needlessly.

[kary]

It probably achieved what Blizzard wanted, so I guess in their eyes is a success.

In my (as in my guild's) situation however... We're a social guild on a dead server cluster. Half the team is good, the other half a bit on the lower side, but not horrible. We dont go for servers first or so, but we always fully cleared the last raid on the highest difficulty at least on 10 man, before the next expansion hit.
Now, with 20m mythic, what happens is we clear up to heroic with relative ease (we killed Archi HC before the item upgrades hit, for example), with a team of 14-15 decent people. Then, we were stuck recruiting to reach 20 people for MONTHS. We get 2 new people, 2 of the old ones decide to go on a break. When we finally got our 20 ready (after like 6 months of recruiting and gearing people all over again), we breezed thru the first 5 bosses on mythic within 3 weeks or so (mostly cuz at this point we raided 2 days/week + doing manno/archi hc for upgrades/trinkets within those 2 days).
Then, before we even got to progress on gorefiend, summer, exams, expansion boredom hit, and we're stuck with 13 people again. In a server like ours at this point, it's over for us for now.

I understand the need for 20m fixed ammount for the more serious, world first race and first few months of a raid - however I see no reason not to enable a 10man mode, or just turning it into flex-mode, after say, 6 months of a raid tier. Races are over, let the rest have some fun. No one's gonna claim they're awesome because of it.

Mythic takes 5% of the raid dev teams time overall, they said. Some slight adjustments to accomodate flex? It cant be much. And being barred from content due to logistics (specially on a dead server), rather than due to skill or lack thereof, when it would be so easy to just go in and at least do SOMETHING, even if a few months later... it just drives people away even more, needlessly.

The entire point of mythic is to be a set number.

[Mahourai]

Yeah it wasn't immediately evident, I too was cheering at the start of Wrath when all raids received a casual 10-man mode; not so much in Cata though. What we have now is a return to Wrath raid system where 20-mans are a tier above 10-mans, with added bonus that in casual mode you're not limited to 10 and can take any number of people.

The current system is not a return to the Wrath system. The Wrath system would be better than the current one.

[clevin]

Or maybe they were rational, in wanting to have the raids at their highest difficulty to be the same experience for all that attempt it.
Nah.
Ofc not.

Sigh. RTFT. As I said earlier, they could have done that with 15 people vs 20 and very likely gotten more of the 10 man raids to move up to 15.

I still don't understand, given the declining participation in 25s from Wrath on, why they made their one fixes size raid closer to 25 than to 10. The only requirement I can see for Mythic is that a) it's a fixed size so you have no balancing issues, etc and b) it's large enough to bring one of every class. 15 does that.

The thing with 20 is that if you have a good group of 10 plus a couple of people to fill attendance gaps (so, say, 12 or 13), going to 20 means you have to double the group size, keep the quality high and find people you really like to play with. You'd want maybe 22 or 23... so an additional ten raiders.

ON the other hand moving to 15 would mean adding just a few people - if you're at, say, 13, you could probably add as few as 4 people and be OK in terms of having some bench capability. Four people vs at least ten? Four is MUCH easier and it's more likely that you'll find compatible people too.

[kary]

Sigh. RTFT. As I said earlier, they could have done that with 15 people vs 20 and very likely gotten more of the 10 man raids to move up to 15.

I still don't understand, given the declining participation in 25s from Wrath on, why they made their one fixes size raid closer to 25 than to 10. The only requirement I can see for Mythic is that a) it's a fixed size so you have no balancing issues, etc and b) it's large enough to bring one of every class. 15 does that.

The thing with 20 is that if you have a good group of 10 plus a couple of people to fill attendance gaps (so, say, 12 or 13), going to 20 means you have to double the group size, keep the quality high and find people you really like to play with. You'd want maybe 22 or 23... so an additional ten raiders.

ON the other hand moving to 15 would mean adding just a few people - if you're at, say, 13, you could probably add as few as 4 people and be OK in terms of having some bench capability. Four people vs at least ten? Four is MUCH easier and it's more likely that you'll find compatible people too.

I did read the thread.
10man wasn't the only raiding option. 25's existed too.
Look at it like this. Let's work around 15's, right. You would have to find 5 people or tell 10 people to gtfo.
Working around 10's? Merge 2 raids or tell 5 people to gtfo (or actually keep them on reserve, which is what most 25's did and that solved their attendance issues as well). Tons easier.

People had a stupid amount of time to prepare. Nah. everyone wanted to stay in their "tightly knit social" circlejerk of a guild and then are surprised when blizzard did exactly what they were going to do a year earlier.

Lmao.

And 20 mythic isn't about "find 20 people you like to raid with"
20 mythic was challenging content, so it's more like "find 20 people that are competent and want to achieve the same goal"
anyway whatever. you're just gonna ignore everything and cry victim because noone wanted to raid with yall.

[Jaylock]

I did read the thread.
10man wasn't the only raiding option. 25's existed too.
Look at it like this. Let's work around 15's, right. You would have to find 5 people or tell 10 people to gtfo.
Working around 10's? Merge 2 raids or tell 5 people to gtfo (or actually keep them on reserve, which is what most 25's did and that solved their attendance issues as well). Tons easier.

People had a stupid amount of time to prepare. Nah. everyone wanted to stay in their "tightly knit social" circlejerk of a guild and then are surprised when blizzard did exactly what they were going to do a year earlier.

Lmao.

And 20 mythic isn't about "find 20 people you like to raid with"
20 mythic was challenging content, so it's more like "find 20 people that are competent and want to achieve the same goal"
anyway whatever. you're just gonna ignore everything and cry victim because noone wanted to raid with yall.

Dude every post you make just makes sense. Complete logic that many of the posters on this site just don't have.

I agree with everything you said.

[clevin]

I did read the thread.
10man wasn't the only raiding option. 25's existed too.
Look at it like this. Let's work around 15's, right. You would have to find 5 people or tell 10 people to gtfo.
Working around 10's? Merge 2 raids or tell 5 people to gtfo (or actually keep them on reserve, which is what most 25's did and that solved their attendance issues as well). Tons easier.

Yes, but there were fewer 25s than 10s so you were making more actual people adjust. Also, th math doesn't support you:

With 15s, you have to find 5 people, yes (from 10s). But with a 25, you likely really have a couple of benchwarmers... you probably had 27 or even 28 people. So... add 5 and you have TWO mythic raids (this assumes you can find the tanks and healers). So in both cases it was simple to add 5 to your existing raid and for the 25s you ended up with 2 full raids.

With 20 people the 25s had to LOSE 5 people vs add and 10 person raids had to double their size. Here's the core issue I have - if the community is overwhelmingly showing a preference for 10 person raids doesn't that tell you something? Doesn't that say 'yea, we could do 25s but we strongly prefer 10s'? If your community is saying that by the actions they take, why go against that?

And 20 mythic isn't about "find 20 people you like to raid with"
20 mythic was challenging content, so it's more like "find 20 people that are competent and want to achieve the same goal"
anyway whatever. you're just gonna ignore everything and cry victim because noone wanted to raid with yall.

All of this was just as true of 10 man heroics (when heroic was the top level). There's nothing more challenging about 20 man than 10 in general. With 20s, you had to double the number of people who you wanted to raid with and who were good enough to clear shit. That was much harder to do than adding 5. See the above math.

[kary]

Yes, but there were fewer 25s than 10s so you were make more actual people adjust. With 15s, you have to find 5 people, yes (from 10s). But with a 25, you likely really have a couple of benchwarmers... you probably had 27 or even 28 people. So... add 5 and you have TWO mythic raids (this assumes you can find the tanks and healers). So in both cases it was simple to add 5 to your existing raid and for the 25s you ended up with 2 full raids.

With 20 people the 25s had to LOSE 5 people vs add and 10 person raids had to double their size. Here's the core issue I have - if the community is overwhelmingly showing a preference for 10 person raids doesn't that tell you something? Doesn't that say 'yea, we could do 25s but we strongly prefer 10s'? If your community is saying that by the actions they take, why go against that?


All of this was just as true of 10 man heroics (when heroic was the top level). There's nothing more challenging about 20 man than 10 in general. With 20s, you had to double the number of people who you wanted to raid with and who were good enough to clear shit. That was much harder to do than adding 5. See the above math.

The community wasn't overwhelmingly showing anything. The community was divided 25 vs 10. You thinking that 10's was an overwhelming majority shows your bias.

The devs always preferred larger raid sizes, too. 25's were the premier size since TBC. You had 2 expansions of 10mans compared to 4 of 25's.
You can still raid and get tier with 10 or how much ever you want. They have an idea for their premier size, their halo content. It just happened to be 20, which, was easier to recruit for than 25.

Anyway, I'll say it over and over. People had time to adapt. If you chose not to, that's noone's fault but your own.

Oh, and if the point is to be social, it's way better to unite 2 houses rather than find 5 randoms

[clevin]

The community wasn't overwhelmingly showing anything. The community was divided 25 vs 10. You thinking that 10's was an overwhelming majority shows your bias.

No, I'm dealing in reality. You're the one who is remembering things wrong because of your bias. See https://www.engadget.com/2012/04/20/...-10-man-raids/

The devs always preferred larger raid sizes, too. 25's were the premier size since TBC. You had 2 expansions of 10mans compared to 4 of 25's.
You can still raid and get tier with 10 or how much ever you want. They have an idea for their premier size, their halo content. It just happened to be 20, which, was easier to recruit for than 25.

And that's why they're losing subs right and left - they do what they want, fuck what the customers are actually demonstrating that they want. Doesn't bother me in the least, but it's stupid for any business to ignore what paying customers seem to want to satisfy the egos of some employees.