BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Acidbaron]

The issue is that the EU needs to counter the likes of Le Pen in France and treating the UK harshly would just be proving their points about the EU.

This leave vote will cause enough problems as it is without creating a martyr of the UK, all you would be showing is that the EU is using force to maintain itself and destroy any pretence of a willing union.

Le Penn will be the first to speak out against the UK if it suits her populist demographic. You are taking a big gamble here on the good will, the good will of people who are already saying "out is out".

The EU will reform now, to keep others inside and not in the way that you think it will. This again does not bode well for the UK. If the EU appears to be more effective more serving it's member states, the opinion changes fast.

We'll see but i find you're banking on something that won't exist a year from now and the talks will last at least 2.

[Gangresnake]

Just how dense can you be? You're saying fuck you to the EU and then expect the EU to thank you and give you a hefty pro-British deal as a reward for your glorious democratic bravery?

The EU is respecting the decision. What you're not understanding is apparently what you voted on. The vote was about the UK LEAVING THE EUROPEAN UNION. Did you think that meant "leaving a little bit" or "leaving only the bad parts that we don't like"?

How deluded can you be? Out is out. All of it. So yeah, UK, what up?

You either have deep comprehension-issue or are attempting to delude yourself.
Let me clear things up.

There's nothing the UK cant renegotiate with the EU. "Why would they give a good deal" is a fallacy. You dont trade people to be nice, or make gift. You trade because there is a common interest. so one of two thing :
-Either the EU is an authoritarian construction aimed to crush democracy. And UK rejecting that construction impede that "plan", hence why they now have to "punish it"
-Or the EU is a real construction based on the will of the people and the beliefs that trade is beneficient to everyone. And then they wont have a problem maintaining most of the trade agreements that were already made.

It's rather illogic to present EU as the 1st option and then think anyone would "regret" leaving them, whatever the economic fallout may be.

[Mihalik]

God, even now after the vote is done and final people still don't get facts right... wtf am I doing here, shite place to be full of cretins that yell some bullshit they heard in the subway on their way home...

No you don't get it mate.

I actively want the EU to damage the economy and well being of Britain by any and all means possible. Going beyond that they should actively seek to break it up as well, by giving all backing possible to Scottish and Northern Irish independence.

Those who voted for Brexit clearly have little to no consideration for the well being of the rest of the block.

Nothing unites people more than a common enemy. I think it is time for the UK to be it.

[Deleted]

If there's a good UK/EU deal, why would anyone else remain in the latter?

For most countries it's the massive hand-outs they get, for Germany it's having a Germancentric export area.

There are a few countries in neither camp, hence the friction.

[Elegiac]

And if that happens, it happens. Then we just start negotiations while we are out, instead of having it all sorted while we are still in, which would be better for everyone.

Better for the UK, you mean. There is no 'good' outcome for the EU, they may as well bite the bullet and, again, give you lot the finger.

[Zoranon]

'Social interest' and 'direct democracy' aren't synonymous.



Then you clearly have no idea how the EU works.



Britain was exempt from refugee quotes, point in fact.

Be frank, you are in no way for a democracy. You clearly consider yourself better than the common people and you consider it your right, or perhaps even a duty to rule them. It is for their own good in the end you seem to think.

Ok lets play this stupidly if you want. You clearly have no idea how EU works.

I know that, that is why I wrote, for example.

[Independent voter]

This is the best result the working class could have hoped for.

Both the Tories and Labour quislings who routinely fuck us over now have civil wars in their own ranks to contend with, and the vote was narrow enough to make businesses uncertain enough to fuck off from London and take their money with them.

But those of us who never saw and never benefited from any of that money--and only benefited from EU money because it aided in the transit of goods and wealth we could provide down to London--now get to watch London burn.

Suddenly closing all those pits and reneging on the Northern Powerhouse doesn't seem like such a good idea, does it?

This is what happens when you ignore the working class except to call them racist; they get to watch your precious economy full of 'influencers' and 'innovators' collapse without the raw materials and processed goods the little people gather and produce to sell to the people who actually provide services useful to society.

I believe there is truth in this.

Immigration really hurt the working class. I'm not talking about refugees I mean free travel. Polish, Italian and Spanish painters and roofers traveling to Britain to compete directly with British painters and roofers. Who would want that?

The rich don't care cause free travel was good for them, their livelihoods weren't threatened.

[Deleted]

And it shouldn't be, but it also shouldn't be given more than an even deal and it shouldn't be allowed to impinge on the democratic decisions of those who remain.

Punishing the EU wouldn't be giving us a fair deal. Giving us a fair deal will be something similar to Norway or Switzerland, which will give us access to the EEA. And thats all i'm asking for, once again I think your getting me confused with Kalis, i've never said that we should get a better deal than we already had, I don't think thats going to happen at all.

But people are talking about kick us out entirely and punishing the UK for daring to democractically elect to leave. And that is foolish, emotional rhetoric.

[Deleted]

Was not Greece part of the EU? So I guess European Solidarity is a complete joke, and not just kind of a joke?

Are you aware of how much money the EU gives Greece so it can continue their large scale social spending? Hint, if they were not in the EU, they would not have gotten that.

[Theodarzna]

Hence why I didn't say 'exactly like Singapore'.

You get the bad with the good, the problem with the stability created by an autocracy, is simply that the government then becomes subject to whatever whims the current leader has. Glorious revolutionary Leader and Eternal Presidents can come up with funny ideas, plus its a flip of coin with each new autocrat what he or she will think is a good idea.

[Blayze]

Right, so our political climate is in shambles, wealth is leaving our most prosperous city and the EU money that helped out in the North is no longer going to be coming in.

And thats good?

Best result we could have hoped for, given that nothing was going to improve for us since wealth doesn't trickle down outside of bread and circuses given all the austerity bollocks that saw--and continues to see--local government shafted to bail out the bankers.

At least this way London feels the pain too.

I work for my local council; they've done nothing but fuck my department over despite it being a massive source of almost pure profit--we actually have to subcontract out a load of work because we don't have the people to do it all and we're not allowed to hire more people. I've worked there ten years, and it's only gotten worse.

[Dezerte]

I suppose it will be interesting to see how this plays out, it's a pretty major move. I think the UK might be able to receive a good deal on the condition that they remain in the EU, but if not I think the UK will be getting a worse deal.

[Elegiac]

Punishing the EU wouldn't be giving us a fair deal. Giving us a fair deal will be something similar to Norway or Switzerland, which will give us access to the EEA.

I'd say no, considering Norway and Switzerland haven't actively done anything to threaten European integrity.

[Deleted]

Better for the UK, you mean. There is no 'good' outcome for the EU, they may as well bite the bullet and, again, give you lot the finger.

Losing that £19 billion a month in exports to the UK while the negotiations are going on would hurt the EU more than simply giving us 2 years to complete our negotiations and having no interruption in exports.

[Draco-Onis]

The issue is that the EU needs to counter the likes of Le Pen in France and treating the UK harshly would just be proving their points about the EU.

This leave vote will cause enough problems as it is without creating a martyr of the UK, all you would be showing is that the EU is using force to maintain itself and destroy any pretence of a willing union.

But you are not seeing the other side of the argument, if you are to leave Britain unscathed there is a greater political risk for her to gain power. Also Le Pen would enact tariffs and protectionist measure that would further hurt Britain.

[Vyxn]

it is officious liberal elitist snobs like David Axelrod is what the majority in the UK voted to leave and get away from

David Axelrod
✔
@davidaxelrod
Portentous and meaningful stat: 66% people who left school at 16 voted for Leave. 71% of those with university degrees voted to Remain.

how dare those uncleansed uneducated ignorant rubes make their own decisions don't they know you need to let us ivory tower educated enlighten liberal elitist make the decisions for you

what does Axelrod propose? bringing back the literacy test to qualify to vote?

[Kalis]

Respectuflly Kalis, you seem to be deliberately leaving out or ignoring the ripple effect argument.

Alright, the UK leaves and negotiates a deal with the EU which benefits both parties. Good, that's perfectly logical. Yet that ignores one element: why remain connected to a political union and all that it entails if you can obtain favourable terms out of it?

If there's a good UK/EU deal, why would anyone else remain in the latter?

The UK does not need to have all the benefits of EU membership, we do not even want them all, so being a member can still be shown as the better option for member states.

The EU will likely not survive in its current form, it needs to re-evaluate what the members within it want and are prepared to accept because there is huge resentment towards the likes of Germany, who are seen as dictating direction in their own favour - I get that Germans go mental whenever anyone says that, but it is a common perception and nobody wants to be ruled by Germany (except perhaps Austria).

[Theodarzna]

Are you aware of how much money the EU gives Greece so it can continue their large scale social spending? Hint, if they were not in the EU, they would not have gotten that.

Oh but Solidarity of Europeans, Is not the Continent all in this together? So I guess its Solidarity as long as its convenient and inexpensive.

[PC2]

Please do elaborate how saying Singaporean government has many admirable traits means 'I think everyone should be an island city state'.

Well if your only example is ultra small it would be logical to think their scale could be playing a role in their effectiveness.

[Deleted]

I'm aware people are fully capable of voting against their interests.

It's so nice that we can have personal opinions, like you have now.