No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Elim Garak]

As I stated about the dungeons being needed previously in this post, the dungeons and raids contain lore and story within them, making them needed. Take all of that out and make them "kill generic mob A-E for gear," then you have a point.

Dungeons are not needed. Lore in them is not needed. Raids are not needed.
There are (well were) millions of people who played wow and never did any dungeons and raids. Ther are people playing wow now and they are not doing any dungeons and raids at all. Because those are not core features they are optional.

But it seems that the free game design lecture by me went over your head.

The Minecraft topic was just to be ridiculous to a ridiculous response. I could go on and on about how the game could still exist without it, but it's not going to be popular like it is now.

No you can't remove mining from minecraft and still call it minecraft. It would be a completely different game. Because mining is one of the cores of minecraft (the other core being crafting). The entire idea behind the game is to mine stuff and make stuff out of it. Mine fucking Craft.

[Eapoe]

Dungeons are not needed. Lore in them is not needed. Raids are not needed.
There are (well were) millions of people who played wow and never did any dungeons and raids. Ther are people playing wow now and they are not doing any dungeons and raids at all. Because those are not core features they are optional.

But it seems that the free game design lecture by me went over your head.


No you can't remove mining from minecraft and still call it minecraft. It would be a completely different game. Because mining is one of the cores of minecraft (the other core being crafting). The entire idea behind the game is to mine stuff and make stuff out of it. Mine fucking Craft.

Your post completely dismisses and yet supports the whole idea of WoW. They are in fact core features, whether or not people chose to do them or not. If people did not do those than obviously they did not see all the lore of the game, let alone experience all of what makes the game. By the same token, I could go into Mine fucking Craft (as you call it), and never mine a single block, yet still play the game. How is that any different than what you are trying to point out.
You are making some of the weakest attempts to debunk an arguement by stating that core mechanics/game design are not needed. If a game is designed in a way that core aspect are contained in certain areas, then those are necessary to the game, plain and simple. If you take out those things, then yes, you are right (as I previously stated), in that those things would not be necessary to story progression of core design and would be completely optional. As it stands, to experience the lore in the game completely, those things are needed to do just that. If people chose not to do something, it doesn't mean it's not core gameplay design. Again, going by your ridiculous approach, I can go into another game and completely ignore a core concept, doesn't mean it's not necessary. With any GTA game, I can go in and completely ignore the story (core design) and do nothing but run around hijacking cars. Does that mean the story is not necessary to the game design? Are missions not necessary as well? From your perspective they are not, so why not remove every feature from that game as well (bank robberies/gang shootouts/etc) and just make the game nothing but hijacking cars and free roam?

[Elim Garak]

Your post completely dismisses and yet supports the whole idea of WoW. They are in fact core features, whether or not people chose to do them or not. If people did not do those than obviously they did not see all the lore of the game, let alone experience all of what makes the game. By the same token, I could go into Mine fucking Craft (as you call it), and never mine a single block, yet still play the game. How is that any different than what you are trying to point out.

For fuck's sake, can you please stop being so dense?

You cannot play Minceraft without mining. There is nothing to do without mining. You can run around of course but that's not playing the game.

Here's a wow situation:
1. You are on a continent, let's say Northrend
2. All other continents are down and you cannot get to them
3. Instance servers are down and you cannot do any dungeons/raids/pvp
4. You did all the quests in the Northrend
5. Let's say there's an issue with Northrend dailies and you cannot do any
6. Everything else is working

So here you are in the Northrend, no quests, no dungeons, no raids. No escape.

Can you still play WoW? Is it still WoW experience?

The answer two both these questions is a resounding YES.

You can log off of course to wait for issues to get fixed or you can decide to go farm something, like I don't know frostweave or something like that, to sell directly or make bags because for some weird reason Northrend bags are popular on AH or something. Or you can just farm recipes you still don't have, or ore, or leather, or gold, or transmog, or whatever. Do some grindy achievements you haven't done in Northrend yet. Or just go kill some mobs just for kicks. Invent your own quest if you wish.

[wing5wong]

@Eapoe time to give up, any sense of reason falls on deaf ears here unless the words are "flying 7.0".
Impossible to argue any point where 90% of what you say is removed and the last 10% is spun into the most ridiculous extremes

[Eapoe]

@Eapoe time to give up, any sense of reason falls on deaf ears here unless the words are "flying 7.0".
Impossible to argue any point where 90% of what you say is removed and the last 10% is spun into the most ridiculous extremes

I know right? It's still funny though to see how dumb people can be. I mean, let's look at Elim's last post...literally says nothing works except killing mobs and farming mats, and you still play the game. Direct opposition with a ludicrous comment to something like this situation in Minecraft: there's a glitch and your pick doesn't work. Can you still play the game? Yes, go hunt some creeps, run around and fight other things and live thru the night. Obviously mining's not needed right? I mean, if you can play either game either way, then his arguement works both for him as well as me. Still he can't grasp this fact though.
Like when you say lore and story are contained in an aspect of the game therefore making it needed and he says "nope, not needed, story is not a core design of the game and can be removed for the sake of my arguement."

[Elim Garak]

So you refuse to understand what core gameplay is. Your choice.

[Eapoe]

So you refuse to understand what core gameplay is. Your choice.

You refuse to admit that core gameplay is contained in those things you try to take out. That's not a choice, that's willful ignorance. Don't be mad because you tried, and failed, the same arguement that's been used pages and pages ago. As stated, core gameplay covers a wide array of things, across multiple games and genres of games. Flight is not core gameplay in the current and next xpac (yet).

[Elim Garak]

You refuse to admit that core gameplay is contained in those things you try to take out.

No it is not contained in them. Those features rely on core gameplay, but don't own it. You can remove all those features and the core gameplay will remain unchanged. But if you remove core gameplay - those features would CEASE to work. Do you get it now?

I never said that flight is a core gameplay, duh. I said flight is as unneeded as quests and dungeons - because they are not core gameplay, they are enhancers. That doesn't mean that I said that we should remove quests and dungeons, either. I didn't say that. Core gameplay covers nothing but core gameplay hence the word core. Features need core gameplay as they cannot exist without it. you cannot even design a feature properly without core gameplay. Like go ahead and design a quest system without knowing what core gameplay is. But as soon as you know the gameplay (shooter) you know how to design quests (missions and objectives).

There are meta-features of course - these are self-contained in terms of gameplay and inter-connected with over features economically. Like pet battles. it's a self contained meta-feature with it's own gameplay. But it's not a core feature of WoW.

Quests and Dungeons are just different modes of core gameplay. Skirmish, Campaign and Challenge. Skirmish is the core gameplay, the other two are different flavors which can be safely removed without affecting core gameplay. And I say removed only to demonstrate that they are not core. Not that they should be removed. Just like flight shouldn't have been removed.

[Deleted]

when flying was introduced they took away the epic feeling of wow, actually moving your ass around the world in vanilla was one of the major factors that played a part of the game being so great, having to see all the areas before you unlocked the flightmasters.. , when you get to fly around you just go from questpoint a-b, mine node 1-2-3-4 preset destinations with your addons.

[Eapoe]

No it is not contained in them. Those features rely on core gameplay, but don't own it. You can remove all those features and the core gameplay will remain unchanged. But if you remove core gameplay - those features would CEASE to work. Do you get it now?

I never said that flight is a core gameplay, duh. I said flight is as unneeded as quests and dungeons - because they are not core gameplay, they are enhancers. That doesn't mean that I said that we should remove quests and dungeons, either. I didn't say that. Core gameplay covers nothing but core gameplay hence the word core. Features need core gameplay as they cannot exist without it. you cannot even design a feature properly without core gameplay. Like go ahead and design a quest system without knowing what core gameplay is. But as soon as you know the gameplay (shooter) you know how to design quests (missions and objectives).

There are meta-features of course - these are self-contained in terms of gameplay and inter-connected with over features economically. Like pet battles. it's a self contained meta-feature with it's own gameplay. But it's not a core feature of WoW.

Quests and Dungeons are just different modes of core gameplay. Skirmish, Campaign and Challenge. Skirmish is the core gameplay, the other two are different flavors which can be safely removed without affecting core gameplay. And I say removed only to demonstrate that they are not core. Not that they should be removed. Just like flight shouldn't have been removed.

I'm sorry, maybe you're getting tripped up over the fact I shortened it from core gameplay design to core gameplay. The core gameplay (as previously stated in the link I provided), is directly tied to the official b.net description of the game. As inherently stated by me, then confirmed in the post I linked, these things you want to remove ARE core gameplay.
Maybe the confusion on your part because you are trying to liken core gameplay to just the buttons you press? It seems like that is the stance you are trying to take by saying that the gameplay is specifically tied to just that. If that's the stance you take this just further supports the Minecraft comparison. I can enter the game, and proceed to hit buttons, jump around, and fight/run away from monsters without ever actually mining, by your definition that means mining is NOT core gameplay. Core gameplay encompasses a wide array of things that are part of the game itself, and things that are necessary to the game. Things such as lore (the story) and gear for progression are tied directly to dungeons and raids, and thereby making them necessary, AND core gameplay as it is part of the game itself as they are things needed to experience aspects of the game. Flight is not. Literally the end of this topic as there is nothing you can try to add that refutes this.

[Bun-Bun]

I'm sorry, maybe you're getting tripped up over the fact I shortened it from core gameplay design to core gameplay. The core gameplay (as previously stated in the link I provided), is directly tied to the official b.net description of the game. As inherently stated by me, then confirmed in the post I linked, these things you want to remove ARE core gameplay.
Maybe the confusion on your part because you are trying to liken core gameplay to just the buttons you press? It seems like that is the stance you are trying to take by saying that the gameplay is specifically tied to just that. If that's the stance you take this just further supports the Minecraft comparison. I can enter the game, and proceed to hit buttons, jump around, and fight/run away from monsters without ever actually mining, by your definition that means mining is NOT core gameplay. Core gameplay encompasses a wide array of things that are part of the game itself, and things that are necessary to the game. Things such as lore (the story) and gear for progression are tied directly to dungeons and raids, and thereby making them necessary, AND core gameplay as it is part of the game itself as they are things needed to experience aspects of the game. Flight is not. Literally the end of this topic as there is nothing you can try to add that refutes this.

He already refuted it, multiple times. You are just too dense to comprehend.

From your own link:

"World of Warcraft is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game"

"Essentially, the core gameplay of World of Warcraft revolves around fighting monsters and completing quests."


A Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. At its very essence the game is a role playing game. And later it is defined that the core gameplay REVOLVES around fighting monsters and completing quests. So a role playing game that includes the ability to fight monsters do quests or any of the other "features" of the game.

The only things that are required to meet the basic definition of the game is

1. Lots of people
2. Online
3. RPG

Everything else is in support of the above objectives.

[wing5wong]

BRAIN. HURTING.

Somehow we miss the key points of:

• Raids
• Dungeons
• Battlegrounds
• Arena
• Open World PvP

[Bun-Bun]

Didn't miss them, but placed appropriately "Everything else is in support of the above objectives."

They are desirable features of the game.

I am sorry your reading comprehension is poor.

"To summarize: In an MMORPG, you play the role of a unique character in a persistent online world shared by thousands of other players."

[wing5wong]

Didn't miss them, but placed appropriately "Everything else is in support of the above objectives."

They are desirable features of the game.

I am sorry your reading comprehension is poor.

"To summarize: In an MMORPG, you play the role of a unique character in a persistent online world shared by thousands of other players."

You made that statement, nothing on that page did.

Opinion, not fact

JFC why did i respond to you again

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Didn't miss them, but placed appropriately "Everything else is in support of the above objectives."

They are desirable features of the game.

I am sorry your reading comprehension is poor.

"To summarize: In an MMORPG, you play the role of a unique character in a persistent online world shared by thousands of other players."

With this logic every mmo is the same game. WoW is Runescape is FF is TERA is MU is..........
A game is defined by more than the simplistic components of "You are a thing and you can press buttons"

[Eapoe]

You made that statement, nothing on that page did.

JFC why did i respond to you again

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With this logic every mmo is the same game. WoW is Runescape is FF is TERA is MU is..........
A game is defined by more than the simplistic components of "You are a thing and you can press buttons"

Yeah, not sure why you tried. In the common practice of Bun's posts, he/she read something, cut/paste the part that suits his/her side of the arguement, ignored the rest. Very clearly defined in the link of core gameplay all the things I mentioned, which includes dungeons and raids, but wants to overlook this because it proves them wrong. Main reason I stopped replying to him/her.

[Bun-Bun]

Yeah, not sure why you tried. In the common practice of Bun's posts, he/she read something, cut/paste the part that suits his/her side of the arguement, ignored the rest. Very clearly defined in the link of core gameplay all the things I mentioned, which includes dungeons and raids, but wants to overlook this because it proves them wrong. Main reason I stopped replying to him/her.

No where does it say in that link those things make up the core gameplay. Go read my quotes. Those are the pertinent parts of your link.

The link you shared defines the massive multiplayer, online and rpg components of the game. Then it shows the different things you can do in support of those components.

Or did you not read it?

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With this logic every mmo is the same game. WoW is Runescape is FF is TERA is MU is..........
A game is defined by more than the simplistic components of "You are a thing and you can press buttons"

I never said those things were not a part of WoW.

The argument above is about what is necessary and what are desired features. Raids/Dungeons/Battlegrounds/Arene/WPVP/etc. are features of the game. They are not the core gameplay and not necessary. They are desired features and do shape what makes WoW what it is as a whole. Same with flight.

And yes, every MMORPG is the same kind of game; they feature the same core gameplay. Their specific features are what set them apart and lure players to each.

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I don't understand where people are getting the idea Apexis quests didn't have any lore. They all tied into the themes of the zones they were found in, half of them were associated with quests from the garrison campaign and picking the quest up gives an explanation of what's going on and why you need to stop it.

I missed this one.

One quest, per area. That's it. All the quest tells you is where to go and a general idea of why you are going there. And once you're there, nothing tells you what you're doing or how/why you're progressing. Just a boring bar fills up while you click and kill things.

OOooh that thing is sparkling, lets click on it. Hey my meter filled up, yay!

[Dhrizzle]

I missed this one.

One quest, per area. That's it. All the quest tells you is where to go and a general idea of why you are going there. And once you're there, nothing tells you what you're doing or how/why you're progressing. Just a boring bar fills up while you click and kill things.

OOooh that thing is sparkling, lets click on it. Hey my meter filled up, yay!

How is that different to other dailies? All the lore is contained in the story quests, previous to WoD they just made some of the story quests so you could repeat them every day. Apexis zones added an extra layer on top of that and as far as I'm concerned having a range of objectives that give different amounts of credit was a far more interesting idea than just giving you a shopping list of things that you have to do, encouraging experimentation in the way you tackle each zone.

I'd say that the 16 Apexis zones available at the start offered more interesting end-game open-world content than any other expansion has had at launch, it's just a shame that it was so restricted (only one per day) and offered hardly any decent rewards. In other words it wasn't stretched out enough to make it "meaningful" beyond the enjoyment you get from just doing the content.

[Bun-Bun]

How is that different to other dailies? All the lore is contained in the story quests, previous to WoD they just made some of the story quests so you could repeat them every day. Apexis zones added an extra layer on top of that and as far as I'm concerned having a range of objectives that give different amounts of credit was a far more interesting idea than just giving you a shopping list of things that you have to do, encouraging experimentation in the way you tackle each zone.

I'd say that the 16 Apexis zones available at the start offered more interesting end-game open-world content than any other expansion has had at launch, it's just a shame that it was so restricted (only one per day) and offered hardly any decent rewards. In other words it wasn't stretched out enough to make it "meaningful" beyond the enjoyment you get from just doing the content.

Dailies in the past offered a lot more lore, a lot more purpose to doing whatever it was they set you out to do. They explained where you were going, why, and detailed exactly what the objectives were. Plus the daily quest hubs were progressive, so as you gained rep with the faction additional quests opened up and offered more insight into the surrounding situation. The additional lore and progression of those quests gave a sense of purpose and immersion into those areas. They also gave you choice with some single player and grouped content. Some hubs even had rotating quests so they weren't the same everyday. When a quest popped you didn't want to do, no big deal there are a few others you can go do instead. Or if you don't feel like doing the grouped ones, don't.

Apexis dailies give you a static area with no purpose that never changes. You literally do the same thing from the first day to the last of the xpac. Except there was no reason to do them so most people quit after a couple times until Tanaan was released. Going forward doing the grouped ones is going to be much more difficult with a lack of population in the Draenor zones.

I still don't know what the hell I was doing in the pit or what was going on there. Found a group, flew there, ran around, maybe killed some stuff, bar filled and that end of this objective sound went off, flew or hearthed back to garrison.

...

[Eapoe]

Just because I know the level of mentality in this thread and some people will still want to argue, so, just to make it more official: From http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/game/guide/
Essentially, the core gameplay of World of Warcraft revolves around fighting monsters and completing quests. You will encounter thousands of non-player characters (NPCs), computer-controlled characters who may need your help with tasks ranging from the mundane (such as delivering a letter) to the truly heroic (rescuing a dwarven princess from the evil Dark Iron Clan, for example). More often than not, these quests will put you right in harm’s way, and you’ll find yourself squaring off against deadly monsters. You will be able to deal with most monsters you encounter by yourself, but the true challenges and the big payoffs await in the world’s many dungeons and raids, which can only be conquered by groups of heroes working together as a team.
In the very paragraph talking about core gameplay, dungeons and raids are part of it. There is no paraphrasing or interpretation as some people are trying to do when they cut/paste something to suit their needs; or, even better, stating they quote something but it is something they made up entirely.

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How is that different to other dailies? All the lore is contained in the story quests, previous to WoD they just made some of the story quests so you could repeat them every day. Apexis zones added an extra layer on top of that and as far as I'm concerned having a range of objectives that give different amounts of credit was a far more interesting idea than just giving you a shopping list of things that you have to do, encouraging experimentation in the way you tackle each zone.

I'd say that the 16 Apexis zones available at the start offered more interesting end-game open-world content than any other expansion has had at launch, it's just a shame that it was so restricted (only one per day) and offered hardly any decent rewards. In other words it wasn't stretched out enough to make it "meaningful" beyond the enjoyment you get from just doing the content.

Been thinking about this...even though they would be what they had now, I wonder how many people would complain about lack of content if Blizzard had, say, released them a few at a time. With 2 per zone (solo/group areas), they could have released 4 at the release of the xpac, 2 more on a patch, so on and so on. If the rewards were different (from apexis shards to apexis crystals, etc), as well as a slightly higher reward offered for them, or maybe just cosmetics, do you think people would have felt the content gaps were so high, or would they have been "tricked" into thinking there was more released faster?
Back on topic, I agree, the lore is contained in the dailies. There was only less variety in the sense that instead of offering 3-5 daily quests in a given area where you had to do all these things, that it became do all these things for the progress of one quest. Nothing changed. All dailies so far have been: kill these mobs, loot these things, with maybe a release prisoners portion for a total of 3 quests in the area. Now it's kill these mobs or loot these things or release these prisoners for a total of 1 quest where they all count the progress. Unfortunately, the change in format makes people think there is something greatly different from what they've always done and can't get past that to see that it's always been the same.
Well, I shouldn't say all dailies, but the majority are just that, with the exception of maybe 2-3 that were unique like BC's Simon Says daily.

[Bun-Bun]

Just because I know the level of mentality in this thread and some people will still want to argue, so, just to make it more official: From http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/game/guide/
Essentially, the core gameplay of World of Warcraft revolves around fighting monsters and completing quests. You will encounter thousands of non-player characters (NPCs), computer-controlled characters who may need your help with tasks ranging from the mundane (such as delivering a letter) to the truly heroic (rescuing a dwarven princess from the evil Dark Iron Clan, for example). More often than not, these quests will put you right in harm’s way, and you’ll find yourself squaring off against deadly monsters. You will be able to deal with most monsters you encounter by yourself, but the true challenges and the big payoffs await in the world’s many dungeons and raids, which can only be conquered by groups of heroes working together as a team.
In the very paragraph talking about core gameplay, dungeons and raids are part of it. There is no paraphrasing or interpretation as some people are trying to do when they cut/paste something to suit their needs; or, even better, stating they quote something but it is something they made up entirely.

Highlighted the important part there for you. You seem to fail at this, as I already quoted it for you earlier.

But here it is again, just for safe measure. "Essentially, the core gameplay of World of Warcraft revolves around fighting monsters and completing quests." The core gameplay revolves around fighting monsters and completeing quests. Not the core gameplay is those things. See the distinction? It's written quite clearly in your own quote.

Fighting monsters and doing quests. Those quests can take you into dungeons/raids/whatever but they are not required, they are not a necessity. Are they apart of the game? Yes. But that wasn't the basis of the argument. The rest of the paragraph depicts this quite clearly. Quests can take you into dungeons and raids. "You will be able to deal with most monsters you encounter by yourself, but the true challenges and the big payoffs await in the world’s many dungeons and raids, which can only be conquered by groups of heroes working together as a team." So you can do the quests your self OR if you want a greater challenge you can team up with other players and take on dungeons and raids.

Dungeons and raids are no more necessary than flight. They are a desirable feature in support of the main components of the game.

I will take it even a step further for you. What is an RPG?

"A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development. Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines"

Dungeons and raids are not needed to meet that criteria either. They are a part of the game yes, they are one the many methods Blizzards employs to immerse a player in the world: dungeons and raids are certainly not a necessity but a greatly enjoyed and desirable feature of WoW.