BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Deleted]

In an attempt to stem the flow of MPs and votes to ukip, Cameron gave the euro-sceptic the referendum.

I think rather than really caring about UKIP as an entity, it is likely that it was to prune back euroscepticism as being a valid topic to start baiting with internally for a decade.

There's hardly a flow of MP's to UKIP. Admittedly the single, only, alone, wonky mouthed, scary dude they have was once a conservative. And even he thinks Farage is a prick who needs to go.

[Deleted]

You do realise that 3% GDP is more then total EU GDP growth rate? You realise how stock market will look like with EU GDP growth in negative?.

For the UK its 13%.
In any EU/UK showdown, the EU position is better in every fucking way.

But UK is already following rules and regulations; so exactly nothing will change for long time until more rules are added or UK lawmakers reject some of them (for their benefit, if there will be any)

Norway cant reject any rules or regulations - Its all there specified in their EEA treaty - 'Do as we say, or you get kicked out'
its going to be amusing when the UK rejects the EU for the EEA, because the EU stole UK sovereignty!
and then find out that this new relationship is wholly tyrannical.

[Triks]

It was more to stabilise his party and maintain the Tory voter base than purely appeasing the fringe/populists that are ukip.

Not too sure about prolonging his career though. Cameron stated at the start of this parliament that he would not be running for a third. I never got the impression that Cameron would spend his life in politics, more a stop gap before he follows in his fathers footsteps to where the real money is to be made.

What are the political leanings of your parties? From what I have seen the Tories are center-right/right while Labor is center-right.

[Deleted]

So much this. The one time in memory when Europe got mean, when it pretty much told Tsipras to do what they wanted or fuck himself, they got everything they wanted. He went, over night, from becoming the continent's most prominent anti-EU voice to pretty much the EU Viceroy for Greece.

When I was like 20 and didn't know shit about the world, when Germany and France did their whole "axis of weasels" thing over the Iraq War, the notion that we got stabbed in the back by two ungrateful countries struck a chord with me, as it did many Americans. But as I got older, traveled a lot more, and came to understand international politics more clearly, it became very evident that for the one time Europeans do something very obnoxious to American interests, they're basically Batman and Superman the other 99 times. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement that's hilariously worth it.

The US and EU need to both learn how to be externally meaner and play their damn hands in the same game, as you said. In the US a big concern is China's trade practices, basically how we let them into the WTO without having to do fulfill any the prerequisites, with the promise of doing that one day, and here we are in 2016 and they haven't done it. We should nail them to the wall over that. The EU needs to start pretty much dictating terms to Erdogan or sanctioning the ever-living hell out of him and his country. What's the point of having the power of punch above a smaller constituent's part's weight, if you refuse to throw punches.

Here's hoping on the other end of this, we get an EU unleashed, even if the US gets a periodic black eye out of it. We'll live. Western Civilization will be better for it.

We get it, the US needs the EU against China and Russia. What you fail to state though is that it is never about US&Eu interest, but always US interest at the cost of the EU.

Let's look at Syria for instance. How do you explain that russian intervention showed tremendous results in short time while american did not over the course of many months? US incompetence or malice?

That yesterdays vile terrorists are todays willful puppets or, how do you say, moderate rebels? https://levantreport.com/2016/03/01/...even-chovanec/

-That a significant portion of the "refugees welcome" tweets came from anglo-sphere bots.
-That those refugees were then guided by your ngos with written guides in their native language (with info like which country has the best welfare benefits, is "friendliest" towards refugees, which poor countries to avoid, the best routes to take, what your "rights" are [which explains the rudeness of many] etc. )
- That you urge Europe into sanctions with Russia, yet the trade with Russia and the US flourishes.


Do not even remotely try to play pretend in saying that the US wants a partnership on equal terms with the EU. You are willing to throw the EU under a bus if necessary if it advances your interests. Always were, always will be, or in american: "&%$! the EU"

[BatteredSausage]

With all due respect, I don't think your problem should be with the EU but with your own politicians. If they are willing to mess around with the fate of the country to further their careers they need to be impeached and questioned about where their motivations lie.

EDIT:

And again, where is your parliament in this?

pretty sure you just explained How ALL politicians in the world work, not just UK.

[Dhrizzle]

Worse how exactly? I see this "worse" all the time, what kind of "worse" do you actually expect?

Well Norway doesn't just have to subscribe to the free-movement of people that a lot of Leave-voters thought they would avoid, they're also part of the passport-free Schengen zone. They still have to pay into the EU (so the £350m-a-week lie shrinks even more) and they have to meet a lot of the EU regulations, but they don't get a say in what those regulations actually are.

[Triks]

pretty sure you just explained How ALL politicians in the world work, not just UK.

Depends how you handle it, really. From what I am seeing on both sides it's just a bunch of careerists trying to make a fast profit.

[Noradin]

Ok, can you explain the FPTP thing to me? Is this the bit where everyone says "two-party system" meaning only the two biggest parties get to play in parliament?

Only one really gets to play and everyone else is just opposition, that is why every additional one beyond the the second just dimishes the power of those that have similar goals.
In truth, in such a system people who use their brain aren't voting for the party they identify with the most but for whoever has the highest chance to prevent a win of the party they dislike the most.

[Dhrizzle]

They all have plants in the UK, Astra-Zeneca is actually a British company lol.

Around half of the cars manufactured in Britain are bound for the EU. The Leave campaign may have dismissed the industry figures saying that Britons should vote Remain, but that doesn't mean multinational corporations are going to be happy leaving their operations in a less profitable region.

[Dhrizzle]

And there goes the idea of a good deal with the US, since the UK needs the US more than the US need the UK. Damn it.

Obama has already said that the UK will be at the back of the queue for a US trade deal if it leaves the EU.

[Noradin]

Chris Bryant just said that Corbyn refused to tell him which way he voted. I think we know what that means

That he knows how democracy works?
Votes are cast in secret for a reason.

[Deleted]

For the UK its 13%.
In any EU/UK showdown, the EU position is better in every fucking way.

Norway cant reject any rules or regulations - Its all there specified in their EEA treaty - 'Do as we say, or you get kicked out'
its going to be amusing when the UK rejects the EU for the EEA, because the EU stole UK sovereignty!
and then find out that this new relationship is wholly tyrannical.

Thats what some people dont understand. Norway cant reject anything. They have to follow the rules without any influence.

[DarkAmbient]

That he knows how democracy works?
Votes are cast in secret for a reason.

He doesn't want to pretend that he voted Remain.

Anyway, it's curtains for him soon.

[Triks]

Yeh that pretty much fits the Tory positioning.

Labour these days are more Maoist left.

Lol

You guys need more parties to counter-balance each-other. In any case, what are you guys planning on doing now or have the "Leave" leaders still not decided on anything?

EDIT:

In any case, were you guys given a solid platform and information on what leaving the EU means and the alternatives to it or was it just populism (which I suspect was what you were told)?

[Noradin]

That quote says "Until Britain actually sends article 50 call, we aren't going to do any talks".

...and Britain cannot send this call until they vote on it by parliament, so they have all time in the world...

Sure, if they do not care for the damages to their economy and political image.

[Dhrizzle]

What's your Parliament doing btw? All I see are news about Corbyn and Labour. I thought that if they were opposition they would be all over Cameron's neck by now.

Corbyn is a divisive leader because he has less of the flashiness career-politicians expect and won his position by appealing to the no-parliamentary Labour party members (i.e. ordinary people.) This means the career-politicians decided it would be better to use the referendum as an opportunity to tear down their leader rather than advance the Labour part cause or (gods-forbid) try to actually help the British people.

With the Lib Dems being a national joke and Plaid Cymru reeling from the Welsh voting against their interests to Leave the EU, the only UK parties that seem to have their shit together are Sinn Fein and the SNP, both of which are sending a clear message that the UK can fuck off, they want the EU.

[Deleted]

With all due respect, I don't think your problem should be with the EU but with your own politicians. If they are willing to mess around with the fate of the country to further their careers they need to be impeached and questioned about where their motivations lie.

EDIT:

And again, where is your parliament in this?

To be fair the problem has always been with some voters. They never liked the EU, especially older voters who remember the dying days of Empire, most of them really hate seeing foreigners in the streets as well.

If you look at who voted for brexit it was the working class and the older generations. Younger and smarter people wanted to remain within the EU.

The major problem with the referendum was people voting for things that were nothing to do with the EU or were just plain imaginary. Making it about 'elites' or Cameron or immigration. Some people literally came out afterwards in a panic because they voted as a protest and didn't think it would make a difference to the actual result...

The funny things is, since the 'win' the brexiters have been backpeddling like crazy, they've already denied most of things the leavers voted for will actually happen, more money for the NHS (imfamous 350m figure was BS from day one), and another just came out and literally said 'don't expect immigration levels to really change after we leave'.

So basically all the things they voted for have disappeared or never existed in the first place and they really just voted for a poorer country with less influence in the world.

The poor voted to screw themselves, the old voted to screw the young, and the whole campaign showed we now live in a post-factual society where myths and facts can go head to head and myths can win. That's probably the saddest part of the whole affair tbh.

As to where parliament is? Well Cameron has said he is quitting (think lame duck pres in US). He's refused to trigger article 50, probably to screw his successor who will likely be from the leave camp. So nothing can really happen until a new leader is chosen in October.

Incidentally, MPs will choose a new Tory leader. So the people will have no say in who their Prime Minister will be, possibly for the next 3 years until another election. But we got back our sovereignty from that undemocratic EU right...

[Triks]

Corbyn is a divisive leader because he has less of the flashiness career-politicians expect and won his position by appealing to the no-parliamentary Labour party members (i.e. ordinary people.) This means the career-politicians decided it would be better to use the referendum as an opportunity to tear down their leader rather than advance the Labour part cause or (gods-forbid) try to actually help the British people.

With the Lib Dems being a national joke and Plaid Cymru reeling from the Welsh voting against their interests to Leave the EU, the only UK parties that seem to have their shit together are Sinn Fein and the SNP, both of which are sending a clear message that the UK can fuck off, they want the EU.

What a massive clusterfuck! So, inter-party squabbling turned into a political crisis (let's be honest here you are in a political crisis at the time of writing), which threatens to turn into an economic crisis while also sparking an international crisis in the process.

This sounds like a plot from the movies.

- - - Updated - - -

To be fair the problem has always been with some voters. They never liked the EU, especially older voters who remember the dying days of Empire, most of them really hate seeing foreigners in the streets as well.

If you look at who voted for brexit it was the working class and the older generations. Younger and smarter people wanted to remain within the EU.

The major problem with the referendum was people voting for things that were nothing to do with the EU or were just plain imaginary. Making it about 'elites' or Cameron or immigration.

The funny things is, since the 'win' the brexiters have been backpeddling like crazy, they've already denied most of things the leavers voted for will actually happen, more money for the NHS (imfamous 350m figure was BS from day one), and another just came out and literally said 'don't expect immigration levels to really change after we leave'.

So basically all the things they voted for have disappeared or never existed in the first place and they really just voted for a poorer country with less influence in the world.

As to where parliament is? Well Cameron has said he is quitting (think lame duck pres in US). He's refused to trigger article 50, probably to screw his successor who will likely be from the leave camp. So nothing can really happen until a new leader is chosen in October.

Incidentally, MPs will choose a new Tory leader. So the people will have no say in who their Prime Minister will be, possibly for the next 3 years until another election. But we got back our sovereignty from that undemocratic EU right...

I am speechless.

[Dhrizzle]

What are the political leanings of your parties? From what I have seen the Tories are center-right/right while Labor is center-right.

Depends where you come from. Labour are centre-left/left whilst Tories are centre-right/right; though both of them are full of career-politicians who want to get them as close to dead-center as possible.

If you're in the US Tories are centre-left whilst Labour are left/far-left.

I'm guessing you might be from Northern Europe/Scandinavia if you consider our Labour party to be centre-right.

[caervek]

Chris Bryant just said that Corbyn refused to tell him which way he voted.

Corbyn was always going to vote against the EU as he's been anti-Europe all his life, he was only making a show of backing Remain in order appease top Labour MPs.

The saddest thing about all of this is, after Corbyn gets destroyed in the 2020 election, the #1 bet to replace him was Hilary Benn, who would have had a very good shot at winning in 2025. Sadly after Corbyn's recent failure he got paranoid and fired Benn out of fear of a takeover bid, then most of his party's top cabinet members resigned in protest, at least Cameron ca take solace that Brexit has damaged Labour more than the tories lol.