Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Deleted]

Wow so many idiots in one day. Did Celestalon raise the wages or hes now making accounts himself?

Edit: for everyone defending this, since you probably arent even playing rogue, you now cant Vanish while dancing on beta. Assuming this is not a bug, Blizzard is trying to prevent us from wasting another CD while already using one, because guess what, those 2 abilities do the same thing (funnily enough they dont, but Im not gonna overheat your brain) rotation-wise. But at the same time, they are also saying Vanish and Dance are not the same, by removing ShD bar.

Infracted. No need to call people idiots.

[elfporn]

a: you still dont get the problem
b: no it's not that shadow dance isnt a big dps cooldown, it's the uncomfortableness and senslessness to having to use 2 different binds for the exact same thing
c: if you cant backstab on velhari you're doing something wrong, i never had a problem with it.

i actually like most of the new sub, i like the frequent shadow dances, i like shadowstrike, i like SoD way more than i liked slice and dice, but it just doesnt feel good to play with no stealth bar on dance, it doesnt sound like a big deal, but it is, it just doesnt flow well, it's uncomfortable and awkward, ive been a sub main since vanilla and now im seriously contemplating rolling assa because it's just way more fun now.

I'd also like to add that most of the feeling of "powerfulness" from ambush and shadow dance on live is because of soulcap, the ring, the 4p bonus, and the class trinket.

All of those things come together to make ambush hit harder than our other abilities. Before that "perfect storm" of damage bonuses, ambush was just the button you pushed to maintain FW, sure it hit hard and gave an extra combo point, but it wasn't OHEMGEE I AM GODLIKE. We will never see anything like HFC sub again.

[Wow]

I'd also like to add that most of the feeling of "powerfulness" from ambush and shadow dance on live is because of soulcap, the ring, the 4p bonus, and the class trinket.

All of those things come together to make ambush hit harder than our other abilities. Before that "perfect storm" of damage bonuses, ambush was just the button you pushed to maintain FW, sure it hit hard and gave an extra combo point, but it wasn't OHEMGEE I AM GODLIKE. We will never see anything like HFC sub again.

And 7.0 will gut all of those but the ring the 4p is indirectly nerfed by the base vanish cd going up.

[Deleted]

Wow so many idiots in one day. Did Celestalon raise the wages or hes now making accounts himself?

Edit: for everyone defending this, since you probably arent even playing rogue, you now cant Vanish while dancing on beta. Assuming this is not a bug, Blizzard is trying to prevent us from wasting another CD while already using one, because guess what, those 2 abilities do the same thing (funnily enough they dont, but Im not gonna overheat your brain) rotation-wise. But at the same time, they are also saying Vanish and Dance are not the same, by removing ShD bar.

It's one retarded thing after another!!!! This just made subterfuge and phantom assassin a possible death sentence in PvP.

Pretty much made the decision that i am going to play Assassination now and avoid this clunky buggy fuck fest of a spec.

[Tellof]

And here folks is the casual pvper, where a 1sec or less response time isn't the deciding faCTOR.

Point taken, but you're being far from constructive. If your bars are full of extra macros that aren't represented in the admittedly small spell book, then fine, but say that up front instead of just shooting down my suggestion to use an add-on with static bars and key-bindings. Having such a setup, when you've adjusted to it, shouldn't result in any additional reactionary time at all... it's exactly the same as what you do on your bars only instead of having something like "G" bound to two skills, I have "G" bound to one skill and something like "Shift+G" bound to the other. In both situations your brain needs to recall which keystroke to press, and knowing 2:1 vs 1:1 x2 isn't any different in practice.

Also, there's more to WoW than just "serious" PVP, or PVP at all, and nothing about "serious" PVP disqualifies my suggested solution. People can complain about how unfair Blizzard is being, but it doesn't change reality so you can either find a workaround or drop it. My workaround works perfectly fine for me, nothing anyone has said invalidates it. What it ultimately boils down to, is people don't want to adjust and instead dig their heels in with logic that they then claim Blizzard never listens to anyways. How is it really working out so far?

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It's one retarded thing after another!!!! This just made subterfuge and phantom assassin a possible death sentence in PvP.

Pretty much made the decision that i am going to play Assassination now and avoid this clunky buggy fuck fest of a spec.

Honest question: What's stopping people from using a cancel aura line in their vanish macro?

[ymirsson]

Why not try and get it changed before Legion gets shipped and get adjusted when and if it goes live that way?
Just as there is no use in useless complaining, it's equally unhelpful to simply say "Blizzard knows best" and resign.

[Deleted]

Point taken, but you're being far from constructive. If your bars are full of extra macros that aren't represented in the admittedly small spell book, then fine, but say that up front instead of just shooting down my suggestion to use an add-on with static bars and key-bindings. Having such a setup, when you've adjusted to it, shouldn't result in any additional reactionary time at all... it's exactly the same as what you do on your bars only instead of having something like "G" bound to two skills, I have "G" bound to one skill and something like "Shift+G" bound to the other. In both situations your brain needs to recall which keystroke to press, and knowing 2:1 vs 1:1 x2 isn't any different in practice.

Also, there's more to WoW than just "serious" PVP, or PVP at all, and nothing about "serious" PVP disqualifies my suggested solution. People can complain about how unfair Blizzard is being, but it doesn't change reality so you can either find a workaround or drop it. My workaround works perfectly fine for me, nothing anyone has said invalidates it. What it ultimately boils down to, is shit was not broken and it worked perfectly fine for years there was zero necessity for this change and all it has done is cause issues with people who have been playing the spec the longest and zero impact on others as it improves nothing.
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Fixed that for you



Honest question: What's stopping people from using a cancel aura line in their vanish macro?

Nothing, if you want to waste your shadow dance. Vanish is also used defensively to drop yourself from your enemy's targeting, i.e your cloak is down and lock is casting a buffed chaos bolt on you while your dancing, you can vanish his cast and stop the spell going off and continue to burst.

Can't do shit like that when you cancel aura as one of the many examples for the use of vanish in PvP

[shaunika123]

Point taken, but you're being far from constructive. If your bars are full of extra macros that aren't represented in the admittedly small spell book, then fine, but say that up front instead of just shooting down my suggestion to use an add-on with static bars and key-bindings. Having such a setup, when you've adjusted to it, shouldn't result in any additional reactionary time at all... it's exactly the same as what you do on your bars only instead of having something like "G" bound to two skills, I have "G" bound to one skill and something like "Shift+G" bound to the other. In both situations your brain needs to recall which keystroke to press, and knowing 2:1 vs 1:1 x2 isn't any different in practice.

Also, there's more to WoW than just "serious" PVP, or PVP at all, and nothing about "serious" PVP disqualifies my suggested solution. People can complain about how unfair Blizzard is being, but it doesn't change reality so you can either find a workaround or drop it. My workaround works perfectly fine for me, nothing anyone has said invalidates it. What it ultimately boils down to, is people don't want to adjust and instead dig their heels in with logic that they then claim Blizzard never listens to anyways. How is it really working out so far?

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Honest question: What's stopping people from using a cancel aura line in their vanish macro?

a: your solution is still not a solution, THE PROBLEM IS NOT I REPEAT IS NOT THE LACK OF SPACE FOR KEYBINDS, ITS THE FACT THAT YOU NEED 2 buttons for functionally the same spell
b: why do we need to write a macro for something that's so trivial and has been working well for like 8 years?, that's like saying "well blind is no longer in your spellbook but you can write a macro to cast blind" it's pointless, THEy're overcomplicating with zero positive benefits they're trying their hardest to make sub as clunky and uncomfortable as possible, they remove camera distance macros because it provides an unfair advantage, but apparently being able to vanish during dance is not an unfair advantage? it's like making warriors write a cancelaura avatar macro to be able to heroic leap

[Tellof]

Why not try and get it changed before Legion gets shipped and get adjusted when and if it goes live that way?
Just as there is no use in useless complaining, it's equally unhelpful to simply say "Blizzard knows best" and resign.

People are clearly trying to get it fixed, and it appears it isn't working (yet?). Personally, I like to be proactive. If I adjust now and don't rely on paging, then I have two scenarios: The problem is never fixed and I already adjusted, or they fix it and I keep doing what I already was without any re-adjustment. On the flip side, if I were to rely on paging and they don't fix the problem I'll likely feel disadvantaged at launch vs. if they do fix it I'd be happy. It's a comparison of good-good vs. bad-good outcome, and the good-good is preferable to me.

I completely understand that it makes zero sense that things like SS and BS have to be on separate buttons, and that people need to have a bar for stealth which supports paging and their non-stealth bar with the same skills for SD... I really get it. But I also know that I'm not dealing with this problem because of my setup. Again, I'd rather be proactive than let myself be a victim.

[Deleted]

What it ultimately boils down to, is people don't want to adjust

Its not (just) adjustment issue.

Honest question: What's stopping people from using a cancel aura line in their vanish macro?

Wow. You cant do that.

[Tellof]

a: your solution is still not a solution, THE PROBLEM IS NOT I REPEAT IS NOT THE LACK OF SPACE FOR KEYBINDS, ITS THE FACT THAT YOU NEED 2 buttons for functionally the same spell
b: why do we need to write a macro for something that's so trivial and has been working well for like 8 years?, that's like saying "well blind is no longer in your spellbook but you can write a macro to cast blind" it's pointless, THEy're overcomplicating with zero positive benefits they're trying their hardest to make sub as clunky and uncomfortable as possible, they remove camera distance macros because it provides an unfair advantage, but apparently being able to vanish during dance is not an unfair advantage? it's like making warriors write a cancelaura avatar macro to be able to heroic leap

There's 2 parts to my solution and you're having a tantrum over only 1 of them. For some people, space IS an issue - read the other posts. For other people, having multiple copies of identical spells is another. The add-on solves problem 1 by providing space, but TURNING PAGING OFF THROUGH THE ADDON solves problem #2 in as clean of a way as the current build allows and results in not having 2 instances of all stealth skills. How is that not a solution?

Here's the thing... a lot of people here are throwing a fit over something they literally have no control over (and don't mistake influence for control) and I'm here trying to suggest workable solutions to which the response has been a litany of passive-aggressive insults and flaming of my undeterminable and completely anonymous skill and knowledge level... All I'm asking is everyone put the pitchforks away and try to be helpful about the reality of the situation rather than dwell on what should/could be, which has already thoroughly been beat to death.

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Wow. You cant do that.

I know that at least in MoP Warriors had a cancelaura macro for Bladestorm so that they could regain control if the situation got hairy. Canceling Shadow Dance to use Vanish to save yourself, even if "clunky" and you shouldn't have to do it, is still preferable to dying or just re-rolling to a new toon.

[Deleted]

undeterminable and completely anonymous knowledge level...

This one is for the books mate.

Canceling Shadow Dance to use Vanish to save yourself, even if "clunky" and you shouldn't have to do it, is still preferable to dying or just re-rolling to a new toon.

YOU CAN'T DO THAT. Its not possible. What about trying first, then being smart?

[shaunika123]

There's 2 parts to my solution and you're having a tantrum over only 1 of them. For some people, space IS an issue - read the other posts. For other people, having multiple copies of identical spells is another. The add-on solves problem 1 by providing space, but TURNING PAGING OFF THROUGH THE ADDON solves problem #2 in as clean of a way as the current build allows and results in not having 2 instances of all stealth skills. How is that not a solution?

Here's the thing... a lot of people here are throwing a fit over something they literally have no control over (and don't mistake influence for control) and I'm here trying to suggest workable solutions to which the response has been a litany of passive-aggressive insults and flaming of my undeterminable and completely anonymous skill and knowledge level... All I'm asking is everyone put the pitchforks away and try to be helpful about the reality of the situation rather than dwell on what should/could be, which has already thoroughly been beat to death.

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I know that at least in MoP Warriors had a cancelaura macro for Bladestorm so that they could regain control if the situation got hairy. Canceling Shadow Dance to use Vanish to save yourself, even if "clunky" and you shouldn't have to do it, is still preferable to dying or just re-rolling to a new toon.

but it's not a solution you're literally saying "well just use two separate keybinds to it what's the big deal" that's not a solution, that's reality.

[Tellof]

but it's not a solution you're literally saying "well just use two separate keybinds to it what's the big deal" that's not a solution, that's reality.

I don't understand what you don't get... there's not two key binds in the case of Cheap Shot, Sap, etc. There's two key-binds for only 1 set of skills and that's Backstab and Shadowstrike, and you still only need 1 of each of these on the bar, not 2 each. Is that really so awful?

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YOU CAN'T DO THAT. Its not possible. What about trying first, then being smart?

Could you please be more specific? Is Shadow Dance a special-case aura that doesn't work with /cancelaura? http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/MACRO_cancelaura

Is Shadow Dance not an aura at all but instead a stance that doesn't appear on your buff bar? I can't try it now, but I know for sure it's worked with plenty of other classes and their skills.

[shaunika123]

I don't understand what you don't get... there's not two key binds in the case of Cheap Shot, Sap, etc. There's two key-binds for only 1 set of skills and that's Backstab and Shadowstrike, and you still only need 1 of each of these on the bar, not 2 each. Is that really so awful?

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Could you please be more specific? Is Shadow Dance a special-case aura that doesn't work with /cancelaura? http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/MACRO_cancelaura

Is Shadow Dance not an aura at all but instead a stance that doesn't appear on your buff bar? I can't try it now, but I know for sure it's worked with plenty of other classes and their skills.

yes it is because they're functionally the same spell there's literally no conieveable instance where you would backstab instead of shadowstrike, never in a million years ergo it's just eating up bar space, and makes playing it more awkward and uncomfortable having to press two different buttons for doing the same thing is horrible terrible awful and backwards design.

and since shadow dance (by blizzard's own saying) is basically "stealth outside of stealth" then how come for stealth it does change bars but for dance it doesnt

what exactly is the difference?

i dont like "conspiracy theories" but it just seems like blizzard wants our bars to feel fuller after removing so many spells.


how come it works for ferals and DHs but not for rogues?

it's not like we're asking for something big here, we're asking for something we've had for 8 years and it was removed for literally no reason. tell me one single reason why it's a good change that dance doesnt change bars
JUST ONE.

[ymirsson]

Could you please be more specific?

Are you dense on purpose?
What exactly is not understandable on "It won't work"? Why would you insinuate that all the ways of canceling a buff would not be tried before posting that it won't work?

[Critical92]

Trust us, we all have tried a cancelaura macro. It just doesn't work, because Blizz doesn't want it. We would waste our glourius 1 min cd 3 sec duration damage cd.
For PvP you need more than 3-4 buttons to be effective. It is stupid to fill your normal bar with stealth related abilitys because shd has no bar like sap macro etc.
Buttons 1-5 are commonly used for the most standard rotation abilitys and when shd changes our needed attacks the bar itself should change or be stancemacroable.
And don't even count the 3 arena target macros per Blind, Sap, Kick, Kidney etc. all this takes space too.

[Tellof]

Are you dense on purpose?
What exactly is not understandable on "It won't work"? Why would you insinuate that all the ways of canceling a buff would not be tried before posting that it won't work?

I clearly understood what he was saying, but why should I just blindly believe it if he's going to be terse? People are wrong all the time. I asked this follow-up question to understand WHY. Based on what I'm seeing on Google it seemed perfectly plausible that /cancelaura should work, so you don't need to be a prick about it just because I was asking an honest question. I get yelled at for not knowing something, then I get yelled at for asking a question so I can understand... can't win, can I?

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Trust us, we all have tried a cancelaura macro. It just doesn't work, because Blizz doesn't want it. We would waste our glourius 1 min cd 3 sec duration damage cd.
For PvP you need more than 3-4 buttons to be effective. It is stupid to fill your normal bar with stealth related abilitys because shd has no bar like sap macro etc.
Buttons 1-5 are commonly used for the most standard rotation abilitys and when shd changes our needed attacks the bar itself should change or be stancemacroable.
And don't even count the 3 arena target macros per Blind, Sap, Kick, Kidney etc. all this takes space too.

Sounds like it's a special exemption case then - thank you.

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yes it is because they're functionally the same spell there's literally no conieveable instance where you would backstab instead of shadowstrike, never in a million years ergo it's just eating up bar space, and makes playing it more awkward and uncomfortable having to press two different buttons for doing the same thing is horrible terrible awful and backwards design.

and since shadow dance (by blizzard's own saying) is basically "stealth outside of stealth" then how come for stealth it does change bars but for dance it doesnt

what exactly is the difference?

i dont like "conspiracy theories" but it just seems like blizzard wants our bars to feel fuller after removing so many spells.


how come it works for ferals and DHs but not for rogues?

it's not like we're asking for something big here, we're asking for something we've had for 8 years and it was removed for literally no reason. tell me one single reason why it's a good change that dance doesnt change bars
JUST ONE.

Alright. I agree that the problem shouldn't exist in the first place, but it does now, and doesn't really bother me that much, so let's agree to disagree on the magnitude of how bad we feel it is. I also never said this was a good change, I just said I didn't understand why everyone was having such a fit over it. To me, 1 extra button isn't the end of the world.

[shaunika123]

Alright. I agree that the problem shouldn't exist in the first place, but it does now, and doesn't really bother me that much, so let's agree to disagree on the magnitude of how bad we feel it is. I also never said this was a good change, I just said I didn't understand why everyone was having such a fit over it. To me, 1 extra button isn't the end of the world.

because they changed it for literally no reason, they created a problem with no upsides, they made the class a 100% worse for no reason, and the most hilarious part is, is that they actually went out of their way to do it, shadow dance was already swapping bars for 8 years and they literally spent money, work ours and manpower on making something flat out worse. that's the problem

[kalaratic]

tellof what were you expecting coming into this thread trying to justify something isn't a problem when you don't even fully understand how shadow dance works in legion. if you don't have the problem of adjusting like 8 years of muscle memory could you not see that it's a serious shift for those who do? like of course people are going to jump on you