European Superstate Incoming

[Elegiac]

And if it had no nationalism the north wouldn't have given a shit when the south left.

Ah so you now understand that there is such a thing as being patriotic without being obsessively nationalist to the point of advocating things that aren't in your nation's interests.

[Krille]

Apparently you do since you seem to think any nationalism is evil and akin to Hitler.

You did sound like Hitler though. "Loyalty of the people through nationalism". Nationalism have started many wars, so it's by definition pretty evil. Which brings me to your main point on a successful country being enlisting in the military which leads to more people to throw in wars. Nationalism = war.

[Nathreim]

A lot of great men have dreamed of a unified Europe.

If by great men you mean dictators then yes.

[Elegiac]

If by great men you mean dictators then yes.

Anyone who dreams of unification of multiple states must be a dictator. Right.

This is why I hate referenda.

[nonameelf]

Ah so you now understand that there is such a thing as being patriotic without being obsessively nationalist to the point of advocating things that aren't in your nation's interests.

Patriotism is nationalism...

You did sound like Hitler though. "Loyalty of the people through nationalism". Nationalism have started many wars, so it's by definition pretty evil. Which brings me to your main point on a successful country being enlisting in the military which leads to more people to throw in wars. Nationalism = war.

Loyalty is kind of what keeps nations together. In the present day that's via nationalism. In the past it was loyalty to a monarch's bloodline. What do you propose would keep people loyal to a country?

[Seezer]

Signing up for military=successful country, gotcha Mr. World Leader. Oh and many people sign up for military for the benefits, not because of national pride.

Oh, you asked everyone so you could come to the conclusion of most eh? If people only did it for the benefits, everyone would stay out of combat arms mos' and be 92S.

[Elegiac]

Patriotism is nationalism...

There's a nuance of distinction; nationalism entails a feeling of exclusivity, superiority, and ultimately aggression.

[Krille]

Oh, you asked everyone so you could come to the conclusion of most eh? If people only did it for the benefits, everyone would stay out of combat arms mos' and be 92S.

Most? What? Is many the same as most now?

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Loyalty is kind of what keeps nations together. In the present day that's via nationalism. In the past it was loyalty to a monarch's bloodline. What do you propose would keep people loyal to a country?

Laws and a common goal to further mankind.

[Seezer]

Most? What? Is many the same as most now?

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Laws and a common goal to further mankind.

Ok. Many. Have you asked them? And like I said, if people were just interested in the benefits they'd stay out of combat arms mos'

[DSRilk]

You mean Americans joined with other Americans? What a surprise!

I mean people with differing views from different territories, different cultural ancestries, and with different needs based on geography joined together into a united set of states, which then welcomed tons of immigrants from different countries and continents, and from different cultures and religions, to make the United States we know of today.

[nonameelf]

There's a nuance of distinction; nationalism entails a feeling of exclusivity, superiority, and ultimately aggression.

They're the same thing.

Laws and a common goal to further mankind.

If that were enough then rebellions wouldn't be a thing.

I mean people with differing views from different territories, different cultural ancestries, and with different needs based on geography joined together into a united set of states, which then welcomed tons of immigrants from different countries and continents, and from different cultures and religions, to make the United States we know of today.

The original 13 colonies were all British. Each state after that was colonized by Americans and then joined America.

I'm really not seeing how this is similar to Europe.

[Krille]

Ok. Many. Have you asked them? And like I said, if people were just interested in the benefits they'd stay out of combat arms mos'

No i haven't, obviously. Just like anyone making claims on this forum never asked anyone about anything and equally just assume things. What's your point?

[Elegiac]

They're the same thing.

Not really. How do I English?

[nonameelf]

Not really. How do I English?

Dude, they're literally the same thing. They both mean pride in and loyalty to your nation.

[Theodarzna]

Signing up for military=successful country, gotcha Mr. World Leader. Oh and many people sign up for military for the benefits, not because of national pride.

Well there is something to say about "investment in the group," it goes beyond "Army service," to just general.... Am I willing to work harder, be a good neighbour, work with these strangers who aren't my kin ect.

As Benedict Anderson noted in his Imagined Communities, for all its intellectual shallowness the main method by which we have gotten vast groups of people to work together has generally been nationalism, religion or fear. Nearly every, if not every, Communist revolution was at its core a nationalist struggle against a foreign population from Cuba to Vietnam, and Communism is supposed to be some internationalist brotherhood of all mankind.

The idea of "Post-Nationalism," is so new as some sort of mandated concept that we don't actually know if people will act as they did before. I mean is social trust attainable without it? Is the type of social cohesion attainable without it?

[Elegiac]

The original 13 colonies were all British. Each state after that was colonized by Americans and then joined America.

I'm really not seeing how this is similar to Europe.

Apart from all the ones inhabited by Cajuns, or Mexicans, or the hugely diverse population of immigrants the US has absorbed.

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Dude, they're literally the same thing. They both mean pride in and loyalty to your nation.

In the same way that teal and aqua are both blue.

[Cricket22]

& people wondered why we decided to leave. you may understand a little more now.
tell your friends & family what those unelected arseholes in brussels & strasbourg have for their citizens in the eu.

The only thing I've been wondering about is how long it will take other countries to follow suit.

Hey! Nigel Farage was interviewed on Fox News this morning for a good 20-30 minutes, which is actually unusually long interview for a Fox News guest. I was working, so I didn't get a chance to see it yet, but my husband recorded it for me, so I'll watch it a little later this evening. Fox News has also been enthusiastically debating and commenting about it ever since.

[Krille]

Well there is something to say about "investment in the group," it goes beyond "Army service," to just general.... Am I willing to work harder, be a good neighbour, work with these strangers who aren't my kin ect.

As Benedict Anderson noted in his Imagined Communities, for all its intellectual shallowness the main method by which we have gotten vast groups of people to work together has generally been nationalism, religion or fear. Nearly every, if not every, Communist revolution was at its core a nationalist struggle against a foreign population from Cuba to Vietnam, and Communism is supposed to be some internationalist brotherhood of all mankind.

The idea of "Post-Nationalism," is so new as some sort of mandated concept that we don't actually know if people will act as they did before. I mean is social trust attainable without it? Is the type of social cohesion attainable without it?

As i said in another thread going on about the same gibberish. I feel connection to my locale, to my friends and co-workers. I don't give a damn if it's under Swedens flag though. Certain clashes with culture might happen, but in general that's something you learn to adapt too. Nationalists today aren't about the close ones though, it's concerned about our nationalistic/cultural "race" and it's survival.

[nonameelf]

Apart from all the ones inhabited by Cajuns, or Mexicans, or the hugely diverse population of immigrants the US has absorbed.

You mean California and Texas for Mexicans? Americans moved in, settled the areas, then fought to take the land away from Mexican control, and then the Americans who had control of the areas chose to join America.

Louisiana was purchased by the US, they didn't choose to join, the French sold the land.

[Rennadrel]

The EU should start by introducing visa requirements this summer for Canada and America, who still discriminate against Romania, Poland, Croatia and Bulgaria.

You kidding? Do you have any idea how many fucking Polaks and Croatians we have in Canada? Hell, we have tons of Romanians, they just aren't a bunch of bloody Gypsies who steal from people and commit crimes. Hell, I can drive 10 minutes and find a hall packed with a couple of hundred Croatians most nights of the week. It is easy to get into Canada so long as you don't have a criminal record. I work with a crap load of people from Eastern Europe, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Czech, Germany, Romania, the god damn list goes on. This notion that Canada discriminates against certain countries is absolute horse shit.