[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

Echo could be made quite interesting, but as it is, an extra 42% / 22.5% weapon damage... meh.

Divine Tempest isn't bad as far as "interesting" goes IMHO though. Only problem is this also includes "pull extra mobs" (obvious), "minimal usefulness" (can't hit things twice) and "puny damage" (obvious).

Meh.

The range isn't excessive - it's about body pull range anyway. The bigger issue is tagging neutral mobs accidentally; I've snagged more than my fair share of tortoises in Eye of Azshara.

[Snegovik]

Speaking of traits and how Ashbringer will solve our problems(solve it?), why ret have 6 defensive filler traits,more than anyone else(enhs have only 2)?

Because Ret has very very very poor survival kit compared to other melee. I mean just look at the NA Blizzcon Qualifier cup, i just started watching it, but so far there are no Rets, and the main reason is not that our dmg is low, or our cc is crap or we can't really peel for our healer, the REAL reason is because we are very soft. My guess this is Blizzard's weak attempt to fix their biggest mess called "retribution"

[ruiizu]

for example....extra crit to crusader strike; is there some sort of synergy thats supposed to happen when we crit with crusader strike? or is it some wonky measure to justify baseline crusader strike hitting like a wet noodle "oh but it can crit more often".

When you crit Crusader Strike, it does additional damage. I'm not sure what the issue is with traits that increase damage in a way other than +10% damage. Adding crit instead is perfectly acceptable.

The traits on artifacts are all a mix between +% increase of some kind (haste, crit, damage) and special effects (bonus healing, reduced CD, extra duration) with the occasional flavor perk (Unbreakable Will, Divine Storm healing).

As I said before, the traits aren't something you "need" to be excited about. There have always been filler talents from the beginning; only a single expansion didn't have something of that nature (WoD). Before that we usually had a few simple talents or leveling perks that you always took. The idea of getting them while leveling up is more of the power gain as something you "gain" as you become stronger rather than just "okay now you have 5% more crit."

If you look at the different weapons, they're all pretty similar in that regard. Very few classes get traits that are "incredibly interesting" beyond the 3 gold and if they're lucky 1 other. Maybe that's a bad thing, I'm not sure; how many more abilities or traits do you think we need specifically from Artifacts?

[Snegovik]

-snip-

I scanned through melee artifact only, but i found Enhance shammies most interesting, i love how it adds extra aoe and empowers ghost wolves, personally i find Enhance artifact trains more engaging than Ret's.

Edit: a bit off topic, does any1 follow NA Blizzcon qualifier cup? So far there are no Ret teams...which made me very sad, i know Ret teams wont even enter Blizzcon but still at least last Blizzcon we had Vanguards as Ret/UA/Rdrood and Avengerline as Cupid with Rshammy participating in Qualifiers but this time nada ... =( my Ret heart is in sorrow.

[Reghame]

@Storm, DS with divine tempest ATM does only slightly lower damage than TV at 2 targets IF you are speccd into final verdict (favoring TV more than DS). Mind you this is all bound to change but im not sure were you got the 1/3rd number from. And having your core AOE ability heal everyone near you including yourself and anyone in the path for 3%+ of your HP is not a bad perk at all to have. 10/10 will pick it up before finishing on my way to get echo since it will be a nice little boost in raid healing for a single perk.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Ruiizu's post

In other specs every now and then there's a unique effect a regular trait does. Yes there are regular passive damage increases, that's fine but having a unique effect thats not a dmg increase would of been nice to see. It just seems like Ashbringer didn't have too much thought into the mechanics.

[Ryuji]

I posted this in another thread, but my opinion:

It's not necessarily the way you do damage that bugs me(though Crusader without the artifact traits is awful but that's fine if it works at 110), and some talents still need revising badly, like Holy Wrath which is Kalgan's lovechild for some reason even though it's not viable at all and encourages you to get to super low health in PvE and tickles in PvP, thus making it a non-option in any scenario.

The things that bug me the most are self-sustainability and mobility. I get that they want us to be beefy people to try and take down in PvP and even in PvE scenarios with limited mobility, but before we always had Pursuit of Justice ever since Burning Crusade. Then in Cataclysm they introduced Ret having both PoJ and Long Arm of the Law. Then changed it in MoP to pick either of those or Speed of Light which was basically Holy Rogue Sprint.

Now? Mounted speed in combat on a 45 sec CD which is few and far between. When it's on CD your only mobility is just...walking everywhere. Seal of Light is now just a derpy version of Pursuit of Justice(20% movement speed for up to a minute but at the cost of 5 holy power vs. 15% speed at all times + 5% more per holy power, up to 3) but it costs holy power to use which would otherwise be used for damage abilities *AND* you lose out on mount speed in combat for those 3 seconds. Prot Paladins have Divine Steed baseline and can talent to make it have a 22.5 second cooldown.

What needs to happen is that Pursuit of Justice should be baseline for Ret if Divine Steed can't be. Or just even bring Long Arm back.

In addition, Shield of Vengeance needs to be undispellable as well as bringing Divine Protection back. For a wearer of plate, I feel incredibly squishy when taking damage as a Ret Paladin. The healing is also extremely weak now. Supplication needs to come back because the rest of Ret's healing while taking damage feels like trying to plug in leaks in a dam when said dam is getting more leaks faster than you can plug them.

[Celebhil]

@ ruiizu

I'm not sure, i guess on principle im taken back by blizzards backpeddling into passive traits again, when the intent of talent tree revamp has been stated to deviate from that towards utility, actual spells or stylizing your rotation. But if max artifact brings shield of vengeance and the value of flash of light and our dmg to an optimal CD/ value at max level then fine.

[rubenmsalles]

So, this week Dev's will talk about PVP.
my predictions: ret is in a good place now, as intended in all aspects.
one week later... nerf their damage.

[Ulthane]

@Ryuji if they were to lower the CD of SoV to 30 seconds, have the trait increase the absorb and MAYBE make it undispellable you would not need Divine Protection at all what so ever. They literally have the means to fix the defensive issue in one swift stroke by tuning SoV and making the trait buff the absorb easily. Literally all it would take.

[Snegovik]

So, this week Dev's will talk about PVP.
my predictions: ret is in a good place now, as intended in all aspects.
one week later... nerf their damage.

I believe the quote they used in the end of MOP after they buffed ferals,enhance,frost dks, shadows, boomies and no buffs for Rets was: "Ret in the perfect spot, where we want it to be" lol which is bottom of the food chain =) in rated pvp, lovely =)

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@Ryuji if they were to lower the CD of SoV to 30 seconds, have the trait increase the absorb and MAYBE make it undispellable you would not need Divine Protection at all what so ever. They literally have the means to fix the defensive issue in one swift stroke by tuning SoV and making the trait buff the absorb easily. Literally all it would take.

Yes it would be a perfect solution, hell i would give up my BOP for that change, but this will put Rets in a good position in rated pvp, and we all know that Blizzard cant have it, Ret must remain mediocre at best times.

[Ulthane]

I believe the quote they used in the end of MOP after they buffed ferals,enhance,frost dks, shadows, boomies and no buffs for Rets was: "Ret in the perfect spot, where we want it to be" lol which is bottom of the food chain =) in rated pvp, lovely =)

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Yes it would be a perfect solution, hell i would give up my BOP for that change, but this will put Rets in a good position in rated pvp, and we all know that Blizzard cant have it, Ret must remain mediocre at best times.

Also, you can also say the timing of Divine Protection right now is needed at this moment in live to deal with heavy damage/defensives. Losing that 30 second - 1 minute defensive CD harms us horrifically in PvE. PvP i could see that being the one thing needed to make up for lack of mobility etc.

[Snegovik]

Also, you can also say the timing of Divine Protection right now is needed at this moment in live to deal with heavy damage/defensives. Losing that 30 second - 1 minute defensive CD harms us horrifically in PvE. PvP i could see that being the one thing needed to make up for lack of mobility etc.

In PvP i never use BOP on myself, with an exception of duels, whether it is rated or casual PvP, honestly BOP is one of the worst defensive cds in game, even feint that u have to constantly keep up and spend resources is a better self defensive cd than BOP ... XD

[Morally Grey Storm]

So, this week Dev's will talk about PVP.
my predictions: ret is in a good place now, as intended in all aspects.
one week later... nerf their damage.

they've already talked about Ret PvP, a page or two ago Lumineus left a link.
They want Ret to counter Mages.
It just so happens they also forget that in order to counter Mages, we need something besides Power of Wishful Thinking and incredibly potent Aura of We-Want-Ret-to-Counter-Mages

@Storm, DS with divine tempest ATM does only slightly lower damage than TV at 2 targets IF you are speccd into final verdict (favoring TV more than DS). And having your core AOE ability heal everyone near you including yourself and anyone in the path for 3%+ of your HP is not a bad perk at all to have. 10/10 will pick it up before finishing on my way to get echo since it will be a nice little boost in raid healing for a single perk.

why would I care for DS in PvP ? Ret who would try to AoE everyone down would look stupid.
Do you want to look stupid?
Because that's how you look stupid.

3% heal? Did you type it with a straight face? Grotesque galore.
Please do continue.

[ruiizu]

In PvP i never use BOP on myself, with an exception of duels, whether it is rated or casual PvP, honestly BOP is one of the worst defensive cds in game, even feint that u have to constantly keep up and spend resources is a better self defensive cd than BOP ... XD

BoP is a lot better now than it used to be since you can attack with it up.

[Morally Grey Storm]

BoP is a lot better now than it used to be since you can attack with it up.

still just as useless against most comps in serious PvP and 99% useless in rated BGs.

[Snegovik]

BoP is a lot better now than it used to be since you can attack with it up.

Meh only good in duels in arena or RBGs there are always some class who can purge, dispel or even steal or mimic (DKs) ur BOPs, which will end up hurting you more than helping. Yes it is a nice perk but its a perk and nothing more =) it is as useful as auto trinket from ashbringer every 2 min lol in rated pvp.

Edit: What would be actually GOOD if they changed BOP from physical immunity to Magic immunity which you can not dispel like DK's MS, now this is a cd worth having

[Morally Grey Storm]

Meh only good in duels in arena or RBGs there are always some class who can purge, dispel or even steal or mimic (DKs) ur BOPs, which will end up hurting you more than helping. Yes it is a nice perk but its a perk and nothing more =) it is as useful as auto trinket from ashbringer every 2 min lol in rated pvp.

Edit: What would be actually GOOD if they changed BOP from physical immunity to Magic immunity which you can not dispel like DK's MS, now this is a cd worth having

Sounds oddly familiar to what protection paladins are getting in Legion, I think it's called Hand of Negation.
Who needs Retribution when you can be Protribution?

[Reghame]

they've already talked about Ret PvP, a page or two ago Lumineus left a link.
They want Ret to counter Mages.
It just so happens they also forget that in order to counter Mages, we need something besides Power of Wishful Thinking and incredibly potent Aura of We-Want-Ret-to-Counter-Mages

why would I care for DS in PvP ? Ret who would try to AoE everyone down would look stupid.
Do you want to look stupid?
Because that's how you look stupid.

3% heal? Did you type it with a straight face? Grotesque galore.
Please do continue.

3% of your HP every so often is a big deal actually, even more so when you consider the triple dipping effect of luminescence as well. so realistically, in 3s if you can DS all 3 of your opponents and if your allies happens to be near you or the enemy, your healing yourself for much more than that 3% while also dealing more damage as a whole.
despite what people think about PVP, its not all burst and single target focused, there are many comps out there which are quite the opposite which focus on doing that AOE damage and draining the opponent's healer of mana from intense AOE pressure (btw, this is most relevant also in RBGs where your not only dealing with single burst, but making it impossible to heal everyone at the same time. which is why boomkins and locks are so loved in the RBG scene)

And even if you dont pick luminescence, the other talent cleanses you for free for every DS you do as well which is super potent against things like DK and rogues since a decent portion of their PVP kit is now unable to even effect you.

The perk is actually quite good if you dont take it at face value and say PSHHHHH man that likes so low on my healthbar to even matter! same reason why kings is overlooked as well. (outside of the fact that kings has to fight with a spot for both wisdom and might, both which are much stronger for what they have to do) its all these little things that do add up.

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BTW another comparison as to how "lol 3% hp" can be such a big impact, remember conversion for DKs which was 2% hp for ruinic power? or second wind? if your constantly gaining these very low types of healing a lot of the time, your health pool can stay high for long periods of time despite the healing being "weak" just because your healing from it so much.
just throwing that out there. (and btw i was mostly talking about PVE anyhow but for PVP its not even bad either if you can work around with it. small stuff like that does matter in PVP which is where more of the nuance from PVP comes from)

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Sounds oddly familiar to what protection paladins are getting in Legion, I think it's called Hand of Negation.
Who needs Retribution when you can be Protribution?

and you will be ret because theres zero chance a tank spec will be able to out do a DPS spec for long in rated PVP or even in PVE. it does not even take the ret community to bitch about it either since literally NO ONE likes it when tanks are in the PVP mix and start to shut down people, so do not even worry about it.

[Morally Grey Storm]

3% of your HP every so often is a big deal actually, even more so when you consider the triple dipping effect of luminescence as well. so realistically, in 3s if you can DS all 3 of your opponents and if your allies happens to be near you or the enemy, your healing yourself for much more than that 3% while also dealing more damage as a whole.
despite what people think about PVP, its not all burst and single target focused, there are many comps out there which are quite the opposite which focus on doing that AOE damage and draining the opponent's healer of mana from intense AOE pressure (btw, this is most relevant also in RBGs where your not only dealing with single burst, but making it impossible to heal everyone at the same time. which is why boomkins and locks are so loved in the RBG scene)

And even if you dont pick luminescence, the other talent cleanses you for free for every DS you do as well which is super potent against things like DK and rogues since a decent portion of their PVP kit is now unable to even effect you.

The perk is actually quite good if you dont take it at face value and say PSHHHHH man that likes so low on my healthbar to even matter! same reason why kings is overlooked as well. (outside of the fact that kings has to fight with a spot for both wisdom and might, both which are much stronger for what they have to do) its all these little things that do add up.

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BTW another comparison as to how "lol 3% hp" can be such a big impact, remember conversion for DKs which was 2% hp for ruinic power? or second wind? if your constantly gaining these very low types of healing a lot of the time, your health pool can stay high for long periods of time despite the healing being "weak" just because your healing from it so much.
just throwing that out there. (and btw i was mostly talking about PVE anyhow but for PVP its not even bad either if you can work around with it. small stuff like that does matter in PVP which is where more of the nuance from PVP comes from)

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and you will be ret because theres zero chance a tank spec will be able to out do a DPS spec for long in rated PVP or even in PVE. it does not even take the ret community to bitch about it either since literally NO ONE likes it when tanks are in the PVP mix and start to shut down people, so do not even worry about it.

God fucking damnit reg.

Did you just compare Ret Legion AoE to current boomy/lock AoE?
Please spare me from your wisdom forevermore.

Every so often...
Bloodthirst is every so often.
DS is everything but.

You have to be fething kidding me.