BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Noradin]

No. The interest rate is above what Germany borrows it for. They are making, it just they aren't making as much as they could. These are not free money, these are loans, get over with this.

Yes, because people pay Germany money if only they will take lend some money from them.
You want better interest rates than Germany gets? You want to get paid money for taking on loans?
Gifts are not enough for you, you want to get monthly rewards for accepting free money?

[Shalcker]

Germans are some of the best-paid workers in the EU. Please stop.

Their wages haven't risen at the same rate as the rest of EU however...

Check this
Following the adoption of the euro, Germany instituted a set of “labor- market flexibility” policies intended to further improve its international competitiveness. Known as the “Agenda 2010 Reforms,” the new policies reduced pensions, cut medical benefits, and slashed the duration of unemployment benefits from nearly three years to just one. They made it easier to fire workers, while encouraging the creation of part-time and short-term jobs. The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) reports that, from the mid-1990s to 2008, the incomes of the poorest 30% of Germans actually declined in real (inflation-adjusted) terms.

Germany’s repressive labor policies kept a lid on wage growth. In every year from 2000 through the onset of the financial crisis in 2009, German compensation per employee increased more slowly than the eurozone average, and less even than in the United States. During the 1990s, German workers’ real wages rose along with productivity gains, meaning that employers could pay the higher wages without facing higher labor costs per unit of output. After 1999, wage gains no longer kept pace with productivity, and the gap between the two widened. As wages stagnated, inequality worsened, and poverty rates rose. Total labor compensation (wages and benefits) fell from 61% of GDP in 2001 to just 55% of GDP in 2007, its lowest level in five decades.

German wage repression went even further than necessary to meet the 2% inflation target mandated by the eurozone agreement, and insisted upon by German policymakers. Unit labor cost (workers’ compensation per unit of output) is perhaps the most important determinant of prices and competitiveness. Unit labor cost rises with wage increases but falls with gains in productivity. From 1999 to 2013, German unit labor cost increased by just 0.4% a year. The reason was not German productivity growth, which was no greater than the eurozone average over the period; rather, it was that German labor-market policies kept wage growth in check. This combination of a built-in system of currency manipulation afforded by the euro and labor-market policies holding labor costs in check turned Germany into the world’s preeminent trade-surplus country. As its competitive advantage grew, its exports soared. Germany’s current account surplus became the largest in the world relative to the size of its economy, reaching 7.6% of the country’s GDP, more than twice the size of China’s surplus compared to its GDP.

[nextormento]

When was the last time Germany actually ran the EU?

Sometimes I wished she did.

[Ulmita]

Yes, because people pay Germany money if only they will take lend some money from them.
You want better interest rates than Germany gets? You want to get paid money for taking on loans?
Gifts are not enough for you, you want to get monthly rewards for accepting free money?

Did i say that? I just counter argued Slant, who was around saying " we give them money", as they give them for free.

[Slant]

No. The interest rate is above what Germany borrows it for. They are making, it just they aren't making as much as they could. These are not free money, these are loans, get over with this.

Lastly, Germany has made over 100bln since Greek crisis started just because of the interest rates. It was in Germany's and in whole EU interest to keep Greece in EU and its in Germany's interest to not improve situation as it is considered and will be considered the place in Europe to invest money.

They might be fascists but they are not stupid.

Ok, I feel I need to clear this up here...

Germany has made profits of about 100 billion, that is correct. And the current money that Germany contributed to Greece is about 90 billion, you're welcome by the way, Greece.

However... it's not interest rates of Greece that's responsible for the profit. It's that investors keep buying German Government Bonds whenever such a crisis occurs. This is mostly due to us having a triple A rating across the board with basically all rating agencies. So whenever Greece fucks up, whenever the UK is being obnoxious, whenver some ME country decides to freak out... investors keep buying German Government Bonds. We're lowering interest rates as much as we can to actually stop that. Heck, there's even been talk about negative interest rates. Yes, that means you actually pay money just so you can lend Germany money. That's how bad investors rate every other investment in Europe.

This leads to massive savings in public spending for Germany. It's an automatism, however, that we have no influence on. Could we just cut the entire debt and call it a day? If this continues, yeah sure, as it stands we could. But Germany isn't known for being a gambling country. We don't know if the situation in Greece remains as stable as it is now. We'll hold on to that money for a little while longer and perhaps in the future some other deal can be made. But please, stop telling everyone that we're profiting off of Greece's back. It's a very indirect effect and we're far from actually taking money out of Greece's pockets.

[Triks]

Absolutely tonnes of that shit that many people turned their noses up at for decades. I'm half way through my working life and from the demographic that includes many that complain about the educated not being in touch and being privileged. People of my age could have all had a totally free ride through University if you were from the "working class". And at a time when soft degrees were less of a "thing".

We still have to import nurses, physios and OTs hand over fist despite having provided free tuition and bursaries for training in those professions for years (its changing now though in that the bursary is sadly being slashed).

Why did people turn down such an offer? This sounds like a golden opportunity.

[Slant]

Their wages haven't risen at the same rate as the rest of EU however...

Check this
Following the adoption of the euro, Germany instituted a set of “labor- market flexibility” policies intended to further improve its international competitiveness. Known as the “Agenda 2010 Reforms,” the new policies reduced pensions, cut medical benefits, and slashed the duration of unemployment benefits from nearly three years to just one. They made it easier to fire workers, while encouraging the creation of part-time and short-term jobs. The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) reports that, from the mid-1990s to 2008, the incomes of the poorest 30% of Germans actually declined in real (inflation-adjusted) terms.

Germany’s repressive labor policies kept a lid on wage growth. In every year from 2000 through the onset of the financial crisis in 2009, German compensation per employee increased more slowly than the eurozone average, and less even than in the United States. During the 1990s, German workers’ real wages rose along with productivity gains, meaning that employers could pay the higher wages without facing higher labor costs per unit of output. After 1999, wage gains no longer kept pace with productivity, and the gap between the two widened. As wages stagnated, inequality worsened, and poverty rates rose. Total labor compensation (wages and benefits) fell from 61% of GDP in 2001 to just 55% of GDP in 2007, its lowest level in five decades.

German wage repression went even further than necessary to meet the 2% inflation target mandated by the eurozone agreement, and insisted upon by German policymakers. Unit labor cost (workers’ compensation per unit of output) is perhaps the most important determinant of prices and competitiveness. Unit labor cost rises with wage increases but falls with gains in productivity. From 1999 to 2013, German unit labor cost increased by just 0.4% a year. The reason was not German productivity growth, which was no greater than the eurozone average over the period; rather, it was that German labor-market policies kept wage growth in check. This combination of a built-in system of currency manipulation afforded by the euro and labor-market policies holding labor costs in check turned Germany into the world’s preeminent trade-surplus country. As its competitive advantage grew, its exports soared. Germany’s current account surplus became the largest in the world relative to the size of its economy, reaching 7.6% of the country’s GDP, more than twice the size of China’s surplus compared to its GDP.

So... now you're saying... that German employees save their companies money is a bad thing? You do realise it's one of the reasons why we're having such a strong economy now, don't you? At the beginning fo the 2000s, Germany was skidding into quite a precarious situation, we did have a huge economical problem. Instead of, you know, declaring bankrupcty and asking Greece to bail us out, we were told by the Government to tighten the belt a notch and start working our asses off so Germany can fix the problem through austerity.

That's what we did. We're still reaping the results from that. This is how you run a country, mate. You buckle up and you get things done. If everyone did that, the EU would be even stronger than it is now.

[Deleted]

Get a tablet - I can read "news" while I commute

I read my books on the road home

[Slant]

Did i say that? I just counter argued Slant, who was around saying " we give them money", as they give them for free.

No, people said "The EU should just give (not lend) the money to Greece". And I asked "who's doing the giving?" Because people tend to make these silly statements without considering that the money that is given has to come from somewhere. Please, come to Germany and tell them they should just give 90 billion Euros to Greece without any conditions attached. See how the reaction goes.

[Triks]

So... now you're saying... that German employees save their companies money is a bad thing? You do realise it's one of the reasons why we're having such a strong economy now, don't you? At the beginning fo the 2000s, Germany was skidding into quite a precarious situation, we did have a huge economical problem. Instead of, you know, declaring bankrupcty and asking Greece to bail us out, we were told by the Government to tighten the belt a notch and start working our asses off so Germany can fix the problem through austerity.

That's what we did. We're still reaping the results from that. This is how you run a country, mate. You buckle up and you get things done. If everyone did that, the EU would be even stronger than it is now.

I don't think he will understand, don't bother.

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I read my books on the road home

What are you reading now, if I can ask?

[alexw]

Hahh let me ask something... How is it possible those foreigners (including myself) were able to find job and live? Even if most of them have/had issues with the language? The truth is your "working class" lazy and bad workforce. And not I say that, english companies said that
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/bosse...h-7190927.html

This is plain old nonsense. You have some fraction of the top 50% of Eastern european nationals competing with the bottom 25% of UK nationals. Its obvious what will happen in such a situation. The bottom 25% of UK nationals get displaced. You then have to factor in that the Eastern Europeans are mainly in the UK for the short term which allows them to arbitrage any earnings. So £8ph to a UK national has the spending power of £15 to a Eastern European. It ends up being deadly to the UK working class.

[Deleted]

Again though I do not accept that it requires Free movement. Immigration is a good thing but just letting anyone move freely is not the right solution. If I want to go work in america I would have to apply for a visa.. I have no problem with doing that. If america needs my skill set i'll have no problem getting a visa. I just don't agree with 'Free' movement of people.

My wife left Poland back in 2004 and she would never go back. The quality of life there is horrible compared to the UK/Ireland. All free movement does is allow people who have a poor standard of living move to a wealthier country and claim benefits.

as I say, immigration is good for every country, but not 'Free movement of labor' specifically.

Well free movement for me is like to get to airplane and drink a beer with friends in any point of EU w/o to get bored with tons of paperwork for visa`s and passports
I live in poor country but i shitout my ass in work to have good standart of life which i believe will have to do in whatever "Rich country" i`m.Some of my friends there not wory at all they are experienced and have desired proffessions and they are in birthain years before my country even get to EU

[Shalcker]

So... now you're saying... that German employees save their companies money is a bad thing?

Yes, it is bad thing as long as Germany is member of EU.

And it's obviously not good for Germans themselves either.

You do realise it's one of the reasons why we're having such a strong economy now, don't you?

At the expense of weaker members of EU, as it happens.

At the beginning fo the 2000s, Germany was skidding into quite a precarious situation, we did have a huge economical problem. Instead of, you know, declaring bankrupcty and asking Greece to bail us out, we were told by the Government to tighten the belt a notch and start working our asses off so Germany can fix the problem through austerity.

That's what we did. We're still reaping the results from that. This is how you run a country, mate. You buckle up and you get things done. If everyone did that, the EU would be even stronger than it is now.

No, if "everyone would done that" EU would be toast. Not every economical problem can be solved through austerity and wage suppression - especially if you keep giving money to corrupt governments that use those same money to buy German products and pocket kickbacks (like that submarine sale that went through to Greece despite all their debt)...

[Slant]

Well free movement for me is like to get to airplane and drink a beer with friends in any point of EU w/o to get bored with tons of paperwork for visa`s and passports
I live in poor country but i shitout my ass in work to have good standart of life which i believe will have to do in whatever "Rich country" i`m.Some of my friends there not wory at all they are experienced and have desired proffessions and they are in birthain years before my country even get to EU

It's all kinds of satisfying when you see a Bulgarian school someone from a western country on the fundamental ideas of the EU. Well done.

[Deleted]

What are you reading now, if I can ask?

Cosmere shorts from Brandon Sanderson. Just finished all the big books. Waiting for Stormlight 3.

I see our ftiend got himself banned. Do we have some other troll?

[Slant]

Yes, it is bad thing as long as Germany is member of EU.

And it's obviously not good for Germans themselves either.

At the expense of weaker members of EU, as it happens.

No, if "everyone would done that" EU would be toast.

Wait, what... you're actually saying we should, what... work less? Are you ACTUALLY suggesting that us being lazy fucks would improve the situation for Europe? Is this some twisted lowest common denominator logic going on here?

You're literally saying Germany is killing the EU by doing it right. Now I've really heard everything. I'll go to my employer tomorrow and tell him I'd like to just work 5 hours a day for the same wage, please. Because that'll help the Greeks. I'm sure he'll agree. I'm absolutely certain he will not have any arguments against that.

[Triks]

Cosmere shorts from Brandon Sanderson. Just finished all the big books. Waiting for Stormlight 3.

I see our ftiend got himself banned. Do we have some other troll?

Ironically, he got banned when he started to contribute constructively. It is sad that the British working class was being destroyed in such a way by successive governments. No wonder they were so pissed off.

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It's all kinds of satisfying when you see a Bulgarian school someone from a western country on the fundamental ideas of the EU. Well done.

He isn't the only one here

[Baal1373]

English folk should google take a look at transylvaniabeyond.com ( can't share links yet )

[Slant]

He isn't the only one here

Despite what some people say, I think Eastern Europe is making leaps and bounds. Considering the shithole of the communist era that they came out of, they did well. Still a long way to go, but it's really good to see the progress. I mean, heck... even in Macedonia corruption is still running rampant. But we'll get there, just give them enough time.

[alexw]

So they took away your jobs and left you hanging. No wonder you guys are so pissed off. From what I also saw from digging around The Guardian and The Daily Mail you also don't have a left-wing party that defends your interests. I guess the fact that mostly 50+ turn up to vote you have Tory governments.

Why didn't you guys try to find work in, say, Germany or The Netherlands then?

Both major parties have been pandering to the over 50's in a major way, though the Tories are much much worse in this respect. Right now in the UK if you are retired and don't work you have a higher income and more spending power than if you are of working age. That is frankly insane.

Some have moved abroad but its difficult for a number of reasons - the Europe wide depression which means lots of competition for jobs in other european nations, language barriers, that you need to have some savings already to be able to do this, and the fact it requires a certain type of mindset which many people don't have.