[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[durrtygoodz]

Was Elisa still alive or murdered already? I'm fuzzy on my timeline with some of those events. NM she wasn't killed til after Rhaegar.

Still alive and being held hostage at Kings Landing to keep Dorne loyal.

[Ethenil]

That's amazing. He's still a bastard according to him so R and L weren't married.

Not necessarily. Rhaegar and Elia were married by the Seven. He could have married Lyanna by the Old Gods... in front of a weirwood, in sight of Bran

[TirielWoW]

Rhaegar was married to Elisa Martell. I don't think the Targaryens were into polygamy any more at that point.

They were still into polygamy when they felt like it. They kind of ignored laws they didn't like.

[Ethenil]

There's a possibility Lyanna asked Ned to quickly and if possible painlessly kill the child, since he does think about broken promises a lot.

[TirielWoW]

There's a possibility Lyanna asked Ned to quickly and if possible painlessly kill the child, since he does think about broken promises a lot.

Why would she ask that when you can clearly hear her talking about how Robert will kill him if he finds out, and then "promise me, Ned"?

If she wanted him dead, she could have broken his neck herself.

[Ragedaug]

Howland Reed, but I don't think anyone knows where he is on the show. He was the only one, besides Ned, that also survived the Tower of Joy scene.

There's also a fan theory that Ned had Jon Snow's grave made in the crypt (it's common to make them early), and on it will have his name and his actual parents names. Ned was a man of honor, so I don't think many people would question it.

The handmaids (whoever they were) also knew and they survived.

[eschatological]

So, why not tell her after they fell in love and trusted each other? Well, there's a danger of being spied on. You never know who's listening and Varys likely had spies in Winterfell. And even if they did manage to keep it a secret, Cat likely would have treated Jon much nicer and began to love him like she did her own children. People could have questioned this and become suspicious of what was really going on. If those people questioned her, would she be able to lie convincingly? What if she accidentally blurted something out in anger or when she was drinking, etc? What if someone thought she was hiding something and threatened the lives of her own children? Would she still keep the secret?

Cat knowing wouldn't have made Jon safer. It just puts him in unnecessary risk. Ned is a man of his word and he vowed to protect Jon the best way he could.

I think that's a pretty hard stretch. Cat didn't seem like the type of person to blurt things out while drunk, or weak under questioning. And it seems unlikely any questioning would be a serious interrogation of any sort. Her one weakness is protecting her children, yet it makes no sense that there would ever be a situation where her children would be in danger and revealing Jon's secret would keep them safe. The only person the secret really needed to be kept from was Robert, and Robert loved the Stark children, and Ned. The idea that Cat is less capable of keeping the secret than Ned seems a bit comical after a point, because after a point (I'd say when RObb is born, and she truly starts to love Ned) she's utterly devoted to Ned. There's some pretty extensive insight in the books about how she feels she almost feels like she left her Tully name behind, and became a Northern woman.

Again, it's just a thought experiment, but it's a question I had after reading the very first book 20 years ago and piecing together that Jon probably wasn't Ned's son and was probably Lyanna's son from Rhaegar.

[Tempguy]

The handmaids (whoever they were) also knew and they survived.

Yeah, what the fuck happened to them? Did they go chill with Tyrions first wife or something?

[draynay]

They were still into polygamy when they felt like it. They kind of ignored laws they didn't like.

I question whether it would be recognized, but then it's all academic since, on the show, they just give the iron throne to whoever blows up the most buildings.

[Tempguy]

I question whether it would be recognized, but then it's all academic since, on the show, they just give the iron throne to whoever blows up the most buildings.

What's up with those tight ass crowns now? Is it a Lannister thing?

[RobertoCarlos]

I want to see more of the mad king. I like the look/style they went with.

[Deleted]

Yeah, what the fuck happened to them? Did they go chill with Tyrions first wife or something?

In the books, I figure those are the "whores" that Ned fathered his baby on. In the books there is another Ned, Lord Edric Dayne, who is Beric Dondarrions squire, who mentions that he and Jon are "milk brothers" and that the nurse who fed him as a baby also fed Jon, because she was his mother.

So presumably Eddard took them to House Dayne, or, they were already a part of House Dayne and they came because Ser Arthur Dayne asked for them to.

[Frontenac]

In the books, I figure those are the "whores" that Ned fathered his baby on. In the books there is another Ned, Lord Edric Dayne, who is Beric Dondarrions squire, who mentions that he and Jon are "milk brothers" and that the nurse who fed him as a baby also fed Jon, because she was his mother.

So presumably Eddard took them to House Dayne, or, they were already a part of House Dayne and they came because Ser Arthur Dayne asked for them to.

It is possible. Afterall, they knew Lyanna was pregnant and about to give birth. She would at least need a midwife to help her in labour. Also, noble women would often give their children to a wet-nurse (Wylla) to feed them. The women in the show look a little young, especially to be a midwife, but it is possible. After Jon's birth, he brought them back to Starfall, along with Arthur Dayne's sword. If Wylla was of the Dayne's household, Ashara may have known why Wylla and her friend were sent to her brother Arthur at the Tower of Joy. She may have understood that the baby was the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. It may have been a factor to her suicide, along with her brother's death. A brother killed by Ned Stark, who she may have feelings for, now the protector of the heir to the Iron Throne (if legitimate). Unable to avenge her brother's death, striken with grief, she cast herself out of the window...

Then again, maybe they were not of Dayne's household, that one of them is not Wylla. The safest course of action would then be to either silence them for good, or to send them out of the realm, maybe to one of the Free Cities.

[Deleted]

Cool guy

[Ethenil]

Why would she ask that when you can clearly hear her talking about how Robert will kill him if he finds out, and then "promise me, Ned"?

If she wanted him dead, she could have broken his neck herself.

Well, in the show, sure

- - - Updated - - -

Btw, have you guys heard of the theory that Melisandre is the daughter of Brynden Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar?

[Slybak]

They were still into polygamy when they felt like it. They kind of ignored laws they didn't like.

The Targaryens stopped practicing polygamy after the Faith Militant Uprising, presumably because Valyrian polygamy was one of the uprisings principle causes and the uprising nearly destroyed the Targaryen reign over Westeros in its infancy. Incest being the other cause. They kept the practice of incest, however, because it is assumed that Valyrians believed "pure bloodlines" were needed to control the dragons, and after the dragons went extinct several Targaryen kings (including the Mad King) believed that children born of incest were the key to bringing them back.

[eschatological]

You may be correct. Maybe she could keep it secret. But maybe she couldn't, and that's the unnecessary risk that Ned likely didn't want to take. Jon doesn't become safer by Cat knowing. After awhile he knew his marriage could handle it and he wasn't going to gain anything by telling her, but he could lose everything if he did.

Yeah, Jon had the shitty stepmother, but like Mel said... there are worse things.

If you're right and Ned thought telling Cat was "an unnecessary risk" then Ned is less honorable a man than most of us thought.

[tehealadin]

If you're right and Ned thought telling Cat was "an unnecessary risk" then Ned is less honorable a man than most of us thought.

I'd disagree with that point. I think that he is willing to have his honour brought down, in order to protect an innocent life, then this is a truly honourable act.

[eschatological]

You think not telling his wife, the woman he loves, the woman utterly devoted to him, a secret that would alleviate a great deal of the pain she feels in her life, and simultaneously lessen the strain on the relationship between her and Jon, is the more honorable thing to do? Serious question.

Edit: His honor would still be brought down, by everyone else....who she wouldn't tell.

I've been in a few serious relationships in my 35 years, and not once has been "keeping a secret" been the more honorable thing to do with the women in my life.

[draynay]

If the truth about Jon also meant that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and went with him willingly, then Ned may have been unwilling to dishonor her memory, that so many, his father and brother included, died by her actions as much as Rhaegar's would be a difficult admission. I doubt he could reveal one part of the secret and not another. I agree that it would make sense not to reveal the truth to Cat right away, perhaps by the time she and Ned had grown close enough he could trust her, the secret was too big for him to deal with.

Plus, I know I'm the one who complains about character motivation being overshadowed by plot conceit, but this is a pretty big one, what fun would it be if we knew who Jon Snow was early on? The story needed it to be a secret until everyone was invested enough for the revelation to have the appropriate impact. I think there are enough doubts to forgive or understand Ned keeping it from Cat, it may not be perfect but its not so flimsy as to defy belief.