Crafting useless if you raid normal or hc?

[Nethlord]

Sometimes you need better gear to kill the stuff AFTER him. I remember farming a few of the other wings of Nax for quite some time till everyone was geared enough to finally kill patchwerk.

But that being said. I am curious, in what way would you implement crafted gear that is raid level quality but in a way that doesn't make raiding pointless? Not saying it's not possible. I bet it's entirely possible. But rather than argue that it shouldn't be done, I would rather know how it could be done. Ya know have an constructive conversation lol.

I think you misunderstood me a bit, I am all for crafted gear to be par with raid gear or mythic gear in level and in stats. There should be zero disconnect, if you invest the time, the money and the effort that crafted (insert piece) should be just as good as a piece that came out of a raid. The costs and efforts to make these pieces should be worth the time and effort no less than the person that is going week-in/week-out into raiding, the issue made before was the "Why" do you need really powerful gear if all you are going to do is anything (everything) that isn't raiding. This is a flawed line of reasoning, you didn't really need the most powerful stuff to kill bosses in the first place...so why do you need it at all?

Also in regards to Naxx...if you are speaking of naxx 40...that was a different time and not the same game. If you were talking about WoTLK Naxx...still it was still the same tier along the same route, you didn't need anything but comp gear to do the fight alone, much more powerful gear would make things easier of course, which is the point of all of this...more powerful gear makes "ALL" content easier and faster, not just some things ALL the things. It benefits all the content to have players able to have powerful gear available from multiple outlets. The base of people wanting to do raiding, but didn't have gear for it (since there is one road) will now have gear ready to take on a raid. I hope crafting becomes just one more option people can do to get quality gear to join that raid or the M dungeon or whatever challenge.

[Hexxidecimal]

I think you misunderstood me a bit, I am all for crafted gear to be par with raid gear or mythic gear in level and in stats. There should be zero disconnect, if you invest the time, the money and the effort that crafted (insert piece) should be just as good as a piece that came out of a raid. The costs and efforts to make these pieces should be worth the time and effort no less than the person that is going week-in/week-out into raiding, the issue made before was the "Why" do you need really powerful gear if all you are going to do is anything (everything) that isn't raiding. This is a flawed line of reasoning, you didn't really need the most powerful stuff to kill bosses in the first place...so why do you need it at all?

Also in regards to Naxx...if you are speaking of naxx 40...that was a different time and not the same game. If you were talking about WoTLK Naxx...still it was still the same tier along the same route, you didn't need anything but comp gear to do the fight alone, much more powerful gear would make things easier of course, which is the point of all of this...more powerful gear makes "ALL" content easier and faster, not just some things ALL the things. It benefits all the content to have players able to have powerful gear available from multiple outlets. The base of people wanting to do raiding, but didn't have gear for it (since there is one road) will now have gear ready to take on a raid. I hope crafting becomes just one more option people can do to get quality gear to join that raid or the M dungeon or whatever challenge.

Well a few things. Firstly I don't disagree entirely with the idea that Craft gear can be on the same level. However it has to be done in a way that focuses on crafting as a medium of end game. Something the average player won't be getting. The average player won't be raiding mythic dungeons. The Idea of crafted gear being as good as mythic raiding gear is fine with me, but it has to have the same sort of barrier level of entry. My question is, what will that system be like? I am more interested in how something like that would be accomplished rather than debating whether it should be or not.

Secondly I was referring to Naxx 25 in Wrath. I also disagree with you. Patchwerk (and a few other bosses) are just gear checks. Your raid needed to be geared well enough from previous fights to have a hope of getting past the patchwerk fight. To be honest I haven't raided seriously since wrath and maybe that it is all different now. You didn't need the gear from a boss to beat THAT boss but you may need it for the next boss, and most certainly for the next tier of difficulty. The point of getting gear is so that you can overcome the NEXT challenge which will often time require that gear. You're idea that you don't need gear to beat a raid boss is fine when you are looking at the lowest level of that boss and not taking into consideration what the next level raid tier or even potentially just the next boss will require.

Currently Crafted gear will = normal raid level gear (when fully upgraded via Obliterum). You want a system that allows you to push that further. I am for it. Though I want it to be interesting and a feather that dedicated crafter can stick in their hat. Further more the system should include the idea that the gear you created should be used in order to further upgrading it (like raiding). Here is a quick for instance. Like if you incorporated the bronze/silver/gold trials (or something similar) in order to get mats needed to craft a sweet upgrade for your sword. An upgrade that will be required to finish the next tier of "solo raid gathering"! Something like that. Hell you don't even need to make it solo. You could make something like the old events AQ event in WoW where everyone was gathering mats for a war effort. Where gatherers were getting mats for cutting edge research instead etc etc. There is a lot that can be done with it. I find that the "How" discussion a much more engaging one than whether the "should or shouldn't be" one.

[Stardrift]

Crafting has always been useless if you raid. I've never crafted myself a piece of gear unless I absolutely needed it due to something never dropping for me.

[Echocho]

Who is better, the hero who vanquished Archemonde (Mythic, the real one). Or the guy who picked some herbs in his fort.

I'm sure I can spare 20 minutes to queue up for a Archimonde kill. I can probably mill my herbs while I'm there

[Nethlord]

Well a few things. Firstly I don't disagree entirely with the idea that Craft gear can be on the same level. However it has to be done in a way that focuses on crafting as a medium of end game. Something the average player won't be getting. The average player won't be raiding mythic dungeons. The Idea of crafted gear being as good as mythic raiding gear is fine with me, but it has to have the same sort of barrier level of entry. My question is, what will that system be like? I am more interested in how something like that would be accomplished rather than debating whether it should be or not.

Secondly I was referring to Naxx 25 in Wrath. I also disagree with you. Patchwerk (and a few other bosses) are just gear checks. Your raid needed to be geared well enough from previous fights to have a hope of getting past the patchwerk fight. To be honest I haven't raided seriously since wrath and maybe that it is all different now. You didn't need the gear from a boss to beat THAT boss but you may need it for the next boss, and most certainly for the next tier of difficulty. The point of getting gear is so that you can overcome the NEXT challenge which will often time require that gear. You're idea that you don't need gear to beat a raid boss is fine when you are looking at the lowest level of that boss and not taking into consideration what the next level raid tier or even potentially just the next boss will require.

Currently Crafted gear will = normal raid level gear (when fully upgraded via Obliterum). You want a system that allows you to push that further. I am for it. Though I want it to be interesting and a feather that dedicated crafter can stick in their hat. Further more the system should include the idea that the gear you created should be used in order to further upgrading it (like raiding). Here is a quick for instance. Like if you incorporated the bronze/silver/gold trials (or something similar) in order to get mats needed to craft a sweet upgrade for your sword. An upgrade that will be required to finish the next tier of "solo raid gathering"! Something like that. Hell you don't even need to make it solo. You could make something like the old events AQ event in WoW where everyone was gathering mats for a war effort. Where gatherers were getting mats for cutting edge research instead etc etc. There is a lot that can be done with it. I find that the "How" discussion a much more engaging one than whether the "should or shouldn't be" one.

I think we are in the same page here more or less; but again the gear check is for something such as patchwerk is a gear that comes from "behind" that boss not "from" that boss. Case in point Archimonde. He was taken down by people that progressed through the raid gathering all the gear that dropped up to Archimonde right? The tier or class trinket or any other piece that would have dropped off him is superfluous right? You defeated him at least once without the need for the items he has? You beat him with gear that meets the challenge. In the past that has always, ALWAYS come from the raid itself.

My point, which you share is that gear can and should be obtainable in ways such as crafting, or dungeons etc... Those options shouldn't just dry up because Blizzard puts up an artificial ceiling, capping crafted gear for 1st tier content (like 1st patch gear content, but by the end of the expansion it's garbage) That stuff should be upgrade-able with effort and time and money to the mythic levels end of story. And I mean every single slot we have could be filled with craft-able upgradable loot that should cost an ungodly amount of resources and time to do. Would everyone go that nuts and do it? Probably not...but some just might and why not give them that option? I wouldn't, but i'd work on some on some pieces to round out my gear, other than have to sit on the sidelines because I had/ve no road to decent gear.

[Hexxidecimal]

I think we are in the same page here more or less; but again the gear check is for something such as patchwerk is a gear that comes from "behind" that boss not "from" that boss. Case in point Archimonde. He was taken down by people that progressed through the raid gathering all the gear that dropped up to Archimonde right? The tier or class trinket or any other piece that would have dropped off him is superfluous right? You defeated him at least once without the need for the items he has? You beat him with gear that meets the challenge. In the past that has always, ALWAYS come from the raid itself.

I understand the point you are making here. I get it. This is specifically what you said and the point that I am contesting

you don't even need the really great pieces you get from the raid...FOR THE RAID

. I am not denying the claim that you don't need loot from the boss you are killing to get the loot they have. That much is obvious. What I am saying is that you will need the loot from the boss you are killing to kill the next boss. You will need that loot to complete the raid. In the quote you said you don't need great pieces from the raid for the raid, but you do. You won't be able to finish the raid without those upgrades. If you walk in only dungeon level sets you can down the first few bosses maybe. But if those first few bosses don't drop any loot you won't get past later bosses. You DO need loot from bosses to finish the raid.

My point, which you share is that gear can and should be obtainable in ways such as crafting, or dungeons etc... Those options shouldn't just dry up because Blizzard puts up an artificial ceiling, capping crafted gear for 1st tier content (like 1st patch gear content, but by the end of the expansion it's garbage) That stuff should be upgrade-able with effort and time and money to the mythic levels end of story. And I mean every single slot we have could be filled with craft-able upgradable loot that should cost an ungodly amount of resources and time to do. Would everyone go that nuts and do it? Probably not...but some just might and why not give them that option? I wouldn't, but i'd work on some on some pieces to round out my gear, other than have to sit on the sidelines because I had/ve no road to decent gear.

We do agree. I guess the idea of just collecting 40 metric tons of <insert current xpac ore here> to either create or upgrade a weapon is terribly boring design that doesn't require the use of prior upgrades. If I am going to upgrade an item I want to have a purpose for it. I want to upgrade this item so I can tackle the next part of this epic crafting quest that will require those upgrades I am creating. That is why I want to know what system you suggest could be created to make crafting raid level gear not only possible but relevant.

[Mytheros]

With Suramar and all the rares, the ability to kill stuff before it kills you can be essential. So if you want to talk about need, the need is just as much there for non-raiders.

LOL...you make me laugh...I just can't go on man...."yeah ok sure...you are right there's just as valid a need for non raiders to have the best gear in game as raiders"...


Btw....I'm a non raider.

[Deleted]

so imagine you were working on progressing heroics for weeks, then a guy shows up in full heroic BIS gear, and how did he get it? crafting, every single peice of his, even his artifact relics, crafted, making him 10 times better then you, and has not touched a raid ever

I am on mmo-champion. You think they would not cover it? I am that guy you point out. And it's normal and standard. The rest are useless dumb casuals.

[TheDestinatus]

Crafting has never been worth anything vs game content, its not going to change now. Why you would think they would allow you to make better gear than end game content is beyond me.

[Deleted]

Crafting has never been worth anything vs game content, its not going to change now. Why you would think they would allow you to make better gear than end game content is beyond me.

That's not true, DMF trinkets have been BiS in many tiers, we've had armor patterns as good as raid gear (inc in Wod) and even BiS crafted weapons.

What they usually do with craftable armor and weapons is put the decent stuff in with the 2nd raid. They don't want raiders to feel forced to do other bits of the game, but by tier two they already have a full set of gear and so aren't forced to craft.

[TheDestinatus]

That's not true, DMF trinkets have been BiS in many tiers, we've had armor patterns as good as raid gear (inc in Wod) and even BiS crafted weapons.

What they usually do with craftable armor and weapons is put the decent stuff in with the 2nd raid. They don't want raiders to feel forced to do other bits of the game, but by tier two they already have a full set of gear and so aren't forced to craft.

And they are always worse with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions per expansion. They will always be worse than end game gear.

[Wingspan]

Well you don't want a practical reasoning, so I'll just pull the easy out card What you say doesn't matter because Blizzard (you know the people that make the game) actually agree with my logic more than yours...they also don't feel if you don't raid you don't need the best gear in the game....since they make the game (and thus the rules)...that's all that really matters.

In another way of saying it -- if you don't raid (or compete at the highend in arena) you flat out SHOULD NOT have the best gear come your way for no other simple reason than just the prinicple of "you should only get the best rewards in a game for doing the most challenging content".

*Note: I'll add a disclaimer because I have a feeling if I don't some smartass will pull the "Well in Legion anyone can get a Legendary and they are the best gear in the game!".....my counter to that is -- a) use some common sense please...b) you aren't going to fully slot out your entire character in legendries, in fact based on what I have heard from Blizz so far I'm not sure that scenario is even going to be allowed to be possible....so we are talking about "normal gearing" versus a couple pieces of legendary gear (mind you that will take the course of the expansion to even acquire based on current plans blizzard has).

Nothing here changes or discredits (or even addresses) anything I said.

I was not debating, in any way, who deserves gear.

I was saying that using the want/need argument to determine who is worthy is a poor choice because it works both ways. Believe what you will, but you have no counter to the argument (because if you had, you would have said so, rather than tossing in a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with what I said).

[endersblade]

Honest question. If you aren't raiding or doing Mythic+ dungeons then why do you need such powerful gear?

What does that have to do with anything at all? Character progression for the sake of character progression. Fuck raids. I want my character to be as powerful as I'm able to get him. I don't need an excuse. As a non-raider, if I have the ability to get raid-level gear outside of raids, then by golly I'll take it. It makes farming older instances easier, too. And the higher your ilevel, the higher old instances you can farm, the more money/transmog gear/pets/mounts you can farm.

And even if you don't do that sort of thing, again, nobody needs a reason to want better gear.

[Gambit5555]

LOL...you make me laugh...I just can't go on man...."yeah ok sure...you are right there's just as valid a need for non raiders to have the best gear in game as raiders"...


Btw....I'm a non raider.

Okay, there's no need for anyone to have better gear, kill a raid boss, or even play the fucking game. There is a want. And Nonraiders have the exact same want for improvement as raiders do. If that hurts the snowflake mentality then so be it

[Kikazz]

As you dont have 3 profs at your main no you wont have obliterium fast.

unless your like me and are able to afford buying each of the bracers and are an lw and can craft 2/4 by yourself.

my mate is a dual BS/Tailor so i can trade. but yes unless your loaded or you are dual craft you wont be able to get oblit easy.

[Krazzorx]

Have you seen those Darkmoon trinkets? They are amazing even at "just" 850 ilvl.

[Floopa]

DMF healer trinket looks op

but that happens every expansion so nothing new there

[8bithamster]

And here we see a casual raider. Approach carefully because they are unknown of the idea that RNG exists, and that sometimes crafted gear can be a great piece to fill out your slots where your luck fails you.

Sadly these raiders will never see the next winter, assimilated by the stronger content, burned out and they will turn quickly into a new creature called the "forum whiners". Their mating call mostly sounds like "Blizzard why can't I raid, why does the expansion suck". Sadly, no mate will ever respond.

[Alvito]

Yes, to tackle bigger challenges, not to show off your power.

- - - Updated - - -



Sounds like the perfect system for the economy and the trade scene to grow.

It is an odd direction for them to go since they have repeatedly said they didn't want people to feel like they needed to play multiple characters or need different professions on every toon. While I am okay with them doing this it is understandable that it pisses ppl off. It is a classic over correction that Blizzard does all the time. They dumped all over professions and made things far too easy to get in WoD with the garrison. Now they are just going to another extreme, all the while saying they don't want the very thing they are putting in place.

[CrossNgen]

It is an odd direction for them to go since they have repeatedly said they didn't want people to feel like they needed to play multiple characters or need different professions on every toon. While I am okay with them doing this it is understandable that it pisses ppl off. It is a classic over correction that Blizzard does all the time. They dumped all over professions and made things far too easy to get in WoD with the garrison. Now they are just going to another extreme, all the while saying they don't want the very thing they are putting in place.

They went from an absolutely dumb extreme to a probably okay one.