No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Dhrizzle]

Goddammit - when you have done your loremaster, there is no fortification anymore! In your character's storyline, you already have razed that damned thing to the ground!

No-flying in a single-player adventure or RPG is OK because your plot and your surroundings advance with you. In a MMO you have neverending respawn because other players also need to play through that content, regardless if you have already done it or not. Flying after finishing the required content allows me to buypass things I have already done (hence, I have loremaster), except in the case that I want to farm for specific things (then I will stay on the ground, anyway).

What is wrong with you, that you cannot understand this simple thing?

Taking Skyrim for example, no you don't raze fortifications to the ground, you kill/weaken the occupants but later new people will move in. Very few open-world games have you actually destroying buildings or permanently clearing an area of hostiles.

For a game designed for players clearing content on a daily or weekly basis it doesn't make sense to make it super-easy after the first time. Blizz have already rejected the notion of letting you skip trash when going back to previously cleared raids, and you seem to be suggesting that even the bosses should stay dead and give you free loot because "in your character's storyline" you've already killed "the damned things."

Majority of players, like me, simply don't want to participate in such discussions. Cuz this discussion is pointless due to flying/no flying being just a matter of preference. I don't find outdoor content enjoyable without flying. I could write 100500 character post, where I would explain, why it's so. I've actually already done it several times already.

Short explanation: I will accept no flying, only if outdoor content will be designed the way, it was designed back in Vanilla - flat terrain, lesser density of mobs, clear roads and paths, bigger locations, lesser spawn rates, more ways to separate players to avoid overcrowding.

Since Cata outdoor content is being designed to be enjoyable with flying only, so I don't see a reason not to allow us to fly there. In all other cases I agree to do content without flying ONLY ONCE, cuz, as some players stated above, content stops being immersive, once you've already completed it. And flying should be enabled it this content IMMEDIATELY, so I will be able to do it with flying on my alts - otherwise I'd have to unsub and wait for other part of pathfinder, which would be nonsense.

Just because you only enjoy outdoor content with flying doesn't mean it was designed that way. Lots of people enjoyed the leveling content in MoP and WoD, Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle and the Molten Front, all of which were obviously designed to be completed without flying.

Most players, who are against flying don't want it to be removed due to it making game unplayable for them or something like that. They want flying to be removed principally, like some other players want LFR to be removed too. They think, that they know the only right way to design the game. They don't understand, that other people may have different preferences, interests and can even think differently. It's simply "design game personally for me" and "if I enjoy content this way - everybody should do it too" special snowflake mentality. There is no way to deal with them.

There's a couple of major differences between raid difficulties and lack of flight in world content. For starters LFR is for people who can't dedicate themselves to a set schedule for organised raiding, or who don't have the skill (or time to develop the skill) needed for the harder difficulties. Outdoor content is extremely casual-friendly and very easy, if you're unable to find the time or don't have the ability to progress in the open world content then it's doubtful you'd be able to make it to the level cap anyway.

The other difference is raids being instanced, allowing Blizz to offer different rewards for the easier modes. Putting flight in the world is like making all raids LFR difficulty and expecting Mythic raiders to remove some of their gear and ignore the more powerful abilities to find the appropriate challenge.

P.S. Sometimes I start thinking, that the whole problem with flying is caused solely by the simple fact, that Blizzard currently don't have a tech, that would allow them to disable flying partially (not on whole continent) and they're way too lazy to implement it.

Blizz do have the tech to dismount flyers in cerain areas and used it during WotLK for Wintergrasp and Dalaran, they just don't think it's a very enjoyable mechanic.

Skyrim offers fast travel the moment a destination is discovered.

Yes but the fast travel only places you in the vicinity of a landmark, it doesn't allow you to drop on top of a particular target whilst ignoring all the terrain and other enemies.

The key there is leveling content. First of all no one is asking for flight while leveling. What we want is once we experience the leveling content (reach max level do achievement), is to not be forced to engage in leveling content again anytime we wish to do something out in the open world that is relevant to your character.

Bun-bun was claiming that the whole point of RPGs and MMORPGs is for the player to decide how they want to play, and not being able to fly goes against this ideal. I was pointing out that the vast majority of WoW's content goes against Bun-bun's ideal of what an RPG should be. Are you absolutely sure Bun-bun doesn't want flying whilst leveling, given their statement I was replying to?

Sure Quel'danas, Molten Front, Isle of Thunder, Timeless Isle all didn't have flight . However the whole of the xpac did.

Again, read the comment I was replying to about how no-flight goes against what Bun-bun considers to be an important aspect of open-world games.

WoD was designed w/no flight in mind although true, I can tell you this I sure as hell didn't do any unnecessary open world content till it was.

Honest question. How much of your game time do you spend in the open world? Me the majority of my game is open world content as I will only do instanced content w/a select group of friends. I can tell you this a month into WoD the open world was desolate of players .. now even w/the low sub numbers players are actually out in the world in greater numbers then a month into WoD.

Apart from doing each Heroic a few times and the raids in LFR enough to get the legendary ring all of my play-time is in the open world. Earlier in the expansion I usually saw quite a few people doing the daily Apexis zone or activities like the Stable daily quests but this number dropped off quite sharply. I assume that was mostly to do with the lack of meaningful rewards I can't see how being able to fly would get people into the world if there was little point in being there. The busiest I have seen the world during WoD was Tanaan before flight was unlocked, presumably because there was a decent amount of content that gave powerful loot. After flight was released it seems a lot less busy, either because people already have the loot they want or because the content is much easier to get done in a shorter time.

Where has anyone asked about flight in dungeons?

Dungeons are challenging (or should be) group content. We are not talking about instanced content we are talking about open world content.

Again, read the comment I was replying to about Bun-bun's belief that RPGs and MMORPGs should give players whatever options they desire to play out their fantasy, that argument (as well as people complaining about "wasting time" on "pointless mobs") is as much for flying in dungeons as it is for the open world.

Again, you confuse difficult and annoying.

Some people say you can run past mobs in the open world with no problems.
Other people say that trying to run past mobs in the open world almost always leads to you being dazed and dismounted.

The second group find it difficult to do what the first group manages consistently.

[WowIsDead64]

Your rare spawn in the tower analogy is wrong for one simple reason: unless you're are killing it over and over again for some item it may have at a 1% drop rate, then there is no reason to kill it again. If you are killing it over and over for no reason other than killing a rare mob for no reason, you are wasting your own time. If you are leveling an alt, then you are killing it for one of these reasons: greater XP or item it drops, which is not wasting your time. If you kill it for no reason, then again, you are wasting your own time.

I have been killing rares for Corrupted Apexis Fragments. I wouldn't do it, if I wouldn't need to complete that stupid daily quest.

But it doesn't matter. My analogy is right. Let's assume, you have flight master at point A. You have mobs, you actually need, right next to it. Why would you want to go to some point B on the top of that hill via that labyrinth-like path, if all you need - is right in front of you? That's because Blizzard put secondary objectives and rare spawns there. And Blizzard admitted it in one of their first no-flying post - they said, that they wanted us to kill all pointless mobs on our way to "bad guy" and back. That's why flying gives you advantage in a first place. Because Blizzard want you to have disadvantage and waste your time. If Blizzard won't use this stupid design - flying won't grant you any advantage.

[Eapoe]

I have been killing rares for Corrupted Apexis Fragments. I wouldn't do it, if I wouldn't need to complete that stupid daily quest.

But it doesn't matter. My analogy is right. Let's assume, you have flight master at point A. You have mobs, you actually need, right next to it. Why would you want to go to some point B on the top of that hill via that labyrinth-like path, if all you need - is right in front of you? That's because Blizzard put secondary objectives and rare spawns there. And Blizzard admitted it in one of their first no-flying post - they said, that they wanted us to kill all pointless mobs on our way to "bad guy" and back. That's why flying gives you advantage in a first place. Because Blizzard want you to have disadvantage and waste your time. If Blizzard won't use this stupid design - flying won't grant you any advantage.

If they put secondary objectives and rare spawns there, then it is not wasting your time to do those things. The analogy is still wrong. If there is incentive and something to do, then that is direct opposition to you saying you are wasting time. Maybe you are explaining this wrong, but if there's reason to kill something and you are supposed to kill it to complete an objective or achievement, then it does not waste time.
I don't remember that exact quote as one of their first posts discussed flying taking the danger and immense feeling out of the world. That doesn't mean the spin you put on the quote. It's much different over the last few xpacs and flying over the area, finding your target, landing next to it and killing 1mob and maybe pulling 1-2 more; as opposed to making your way thru an encampment, not over pulling or potentially dieing, finding alternate routes to stay safe. Before people say "gear/whatever trivializes content!" please keep in mind that with world drops now having a chance to be upgraded and legendary items having a chance to drop, along with things like mobs scaling level with you per zone and having wider aggro ranges, this all becomes more meaningful (and more vanilla-esque) than it has been in the past.

[Deleted]

Guess u can say people who miss flying are soar losers.

Ehehh

[Eapoe]

Guess u can say people who miss flying are soar losers.

Ehehh

Chuckled and cringed...worth

[WowIsDead64]

If they put secondary objectives and rare spawns there, then it is not wasting your time to do those things. The analogy is still wrong. If there is incentive and something to do, then that is direct opposition to you saying you are wasting time. Maybe you are explaining this wrong, but if there's reason to kill something and you are supposed to kill it to complete an objective or achievement, then it does not waste time.
I don't remember that exact quote as one of their first posts discussed flying taking the danger and immense feeling out of the world. That doesn't mean the spin you put on the quote. It's much different over the last few xpacs and flying over the area, finding your target, landing next to it and killing 1mob and maybe pulling 1-2 more; as opposed to making your way thru an encampment, not over pulling or potentially dieing, finding alternate routes to stay safe. Before people say "gear/whatever trivializes content!" please keep in mind that with world drops now having a chance to be upgraded and legendary items having a chance to drop, along with things like mobs scaling level with you per zone and having wider aggro ranges, this all becomes more meaningful (and more vanilla-esque) than it has been in the past.

Yeah, you don't understand. Doing this things themselves - isn't waste of time. Going there through terrible terrain and crowd of pointless mobs - is. What all anti-flyers say here - is that flying allows you to get, where you want, while skipping all pointless stuff on your way to there. That's why flying is "OP" and "completely trivialize" things. Simple example from initial anti-flying bluepost: you have to kill that bad guy inside fortress. But in order to do it, you have to kill all pointless mobs on your way to there. Also you have to get out from there too and mobs respawn every 10 seconds - so you have to do it twice, if not even more. My argument is simple: if you want me to kill X mobs on my way to bad guy - give me a quest to kill X mobs and give me proper reward. And we won't need to remove flying, cuz quests are done on a ground anyway.

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Just because you only enjoy outdoor content with flying doesn't mean it was designed that way. Lots of people enjoyed the leveling content in MoP and WoD, Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle and the Molten Front, all of which were obviously designed to be completed without flying.

There's a couple of major differences between raid difficulties and lack of flight in world content. For starters LFR is for people who can't dedicate themselves to a set schedule for organised raiding, or who don't have the skill (or time to develop the skill) needed for the harder difficulties. Outdoor content is extremely casual-friendly and very easy, if you're unable to find the time or don't have the ability to progress in the open world content then it's doubtful you'd be able to make it to the level cap anyway.

TI-like content - is exact kind of content, I really hate and therefore completely skip. And as Blizzard don't provide any alternatives, I also completely skip patches (in case of Molten Front) and even whole xpacks (in case of MOP). And as I didn't see any rise in sub numbers during MOP and WOD, I tend to assume, that many players agree with me.

And there is no difference between "easier" outdoor and "easier" raids. I also can't dedicate enough time and effort to do outdoor content without flying, as I can't dedicate enough time and effort to do Normal+ raids. It takes about 40-60 minutes (depending on how overcrowded it is) to complete Tanaan with flying. Without flying it would take 1.5-2 hours. Isn't worth doing for me, as I also want to have some free time to do some fun things - not only "mandatory" content. Mandatory dailies, that were taking all my time - is the reason, why I quitted in MOP. And this is exact reason, why I stopped doing LFR - wiping for 3 hours isn't worth it.

So no. For me no flying for outdoor - is the same brick wall, as no LFR for raiding. No fly - no buy.

[Eapoe]

Yeah, you don't understand. Doing this things themselves - isn't waste of time. Going there through terrible terrain and crowd of pointless mobs - is. What all anti-flyers say here - is that flying allows you to get, where you want, while skipping all pointless stuff on your way to there. That's why flying is "OP" and "completely trivialize" things. Simple example from initial anti-flying bluepost: you have to kill that bad guy inside fortress. But in order to do it, you have to kill all pointless mobs on your way to there. Also you have to get out from there too and mobs respawn every 10 seconds - so you have to do it twice, if not even more. My argument is simple: if you want me to kill X mobs on my way to bad guy - give me a quest to kill X mobs and give me proper reward. And we won't need to remove flying, cuz quests are done on a ground anyway.

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TI-like content - is exact kind of content, I really hate and therefore completely skip. And as Blizzard don't provide any alternatives, I also completely skip patches (in case of Molten Front) and even whole xpacks (in case of MOP). And as I didn't see any rise in sub numbers during MOP and WOD, I tend to assume, that many players agree with me.

And there is no difference between "easier" outdoor and "easier" raids. I also can't dedicate enough time and effort to do outdoor content without flying, as I can't dedicate enough time and effort to do Normal+ raids. It takes about 40-60 minutes (depending on how overcrowded it is) to complete Tanaan with flying. Without flying it would take 1.5-2 hours. Isn't worth doing for me, as I also want to have some free time to do some fun things - not only "mandatory" content. Mandatory dailies, that were taking all my time - is the reason, why I quitted in MOP. And this is exact reason, why I stopped doing LFR - wiping for 3 hours isn't worth it.

So no. For me no flying for outdoor - is the same brick wall, as no LFR for raiding. No fly - no buy.

The more you respond the more it seems like you just don't like the game at all. When flying is your sole reason for playing, there are different games out there that more closely fit what you're looking for, especially when you say you avoid all content that flying is not a part of.
As stated, the chance at legendaries and gear upgraded from world drops and the obvious rep grinds, there's even more reason to not worry much about all these "useless mob" kills. Honestly, you're making Blizzards arguement for them by literally stating all the reasons for flight is for bypassing things.

[Bun-Bun]

Yes but the fast travel only places you in the vicinity of a landmark, it doesn't allow you to drop on top of a particular target whilst ignoring all the terrain and other enemies.

Instantaneously without cooldown. Much more powerful than flight in WoW. But then again, why are we comparing games from different genre's again?

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Bun-bun was claiming that the whole point of RPGs and MMORPGs is for the player to decide how they want to play,

To create their own fantasy, which was in reply to you (using your own words) and you just twisted your own argument... so...

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and not being able to fly goes against this ideal.

Actually in that comment I didn't mention flight, but rather that Blizzard is straying from that ideal lately and focusing on "this is how you play our game, because this is what fun is".

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Are you absolutely sure Bun-bun doesn't want flying whilst leveling, given their statement I was replying to?

I really don't care if there is flying during leveling or not. I choose what makes the most sense and what is most enjoyable for me. I had no problems using ground mounts where it made sense when leveling in Cata.

The previous design of no flight while leveling worked fine.

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Again, read the comment I was replying to about how no-flight goes against what Bun-bun considers to be an important aspect of open-world games.

There ya go again, putting words in my mouth.

Do you even read my posts?

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Again, read the comment I was replying to about Bun-bun's belief that RPGs and MMORPGs should give players whatever options they desire to play out their fantasy, that argument (as well as people complaining about "wasting time" on "pointless mobs") is as much for flying in dungeons as it is for the open world.

More lies.

I have more than once separated dungeons/raids from the world and also stated there needs to be limitations on progression within reason.

There is nothing wrong with content designed for no flight (or for flight for that matter). The issue is the world in general.

How about you read the posts and make arguments based on whats there instead of creating gross exaggerations.

[Dhrizzle]

TI-like content - is exact kind of content, I really hate and therefore completely skip. And as Blizzard don't provide any alternatives, I also completely skip patches (in case of Molten Front) and even whole xpacks (in case of MOP). And as I didn't see any rise in sub numbers during MOP and WOD, I tend to assume, that many players agree with me.

MoP offered the kind of content you like and still lost subs. Cata offered the kind of content you like even whilst leveling and still lost subs. Basically I don't think sub numbers can be used in this argument.

And there is no difference between "easier" outdoor and "easier" raids. I also can't dedicate enough time and effort to do outdoor content without flying, as I can't dedicate enough time and effort to do Normal+ raids. It takes about 40-60 minutes (depending on how overcrowded it is) to complete Tanaan with flying. Without flying it would take 1.5-2 hours. Isn't worth doing for me, as I also want to have some free time to do some fun things - not only "mandatory" content. Mandatory dailies, that were taking all my time - is the reason, why I quitted in MOP. And this is exact reason, why I stopped doing LFR - wiping for 3 hours isn't worth it.

So no. For me no flying for outdoor - is the same brick wall, as no LFR for raiding. No fly - no buy.

I think you have your wires crossed somewhere. My Prot Warrior can manage Tanaan in just under an hour without flying and her gear is still pretty low. My Destro 'lock has full epic baleful with 3 or 4 pieces upgraded with Valour and she can do Tanaan in less than 40 minutes without flying.

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Instantaneously without cooldown. Much more powerful than flight in WoW. But then again, why are we comparing games from different genre's again?

It still doesn't allow you to snipe one particular enemy whilst ignoring other hostile NPCs and the surrounding environemnt. We're comparing them because they're both open-world fantasy RPGs with developers that decided the game can be better developed if they don't allow players free movement in the z-axis despite previous versions of the game having that ability.

To create their own fantasy, which was in reply to you (using your own words) and you just twisted your own argument... so...

Actually in that comment I didn't mention flight, but rather that Blizzard is straying from that ideal lately and focusing on "this is how you play our game, because this is what fun is".

I really don't care if there is flying during leveling or not. I choose what makes the most sense and what is most enjoyable for me. I had no problems using ground mounts where it made sense when leveling in Cata.

The previous design of no flight while leveling worked fine.

There ya go again, putting words in my mouth.

Do you even read my posts?

More lies.

I have more than once separated dungeons/raids from the world and also stated there needs to be limitations on progression within reason.

There is nothing wrong with content designed for no flight (or for flight for that matter). The issue is the world in general.

How about you read the posts and make arguments based on whats there instead of creating gross exaggerations.

I think you need to be a bit more clear. In a thread about flight (or the lack thereof) you were complaining how Blizz should allow you to create your own fantasy by giving lots of different abilities. That made it seem like you were advocating for flight to be freely available to players to skip or engage in content as they see fit. If that isn't what you meant, what are you actually talking about?

[Deleted]

Except there are plenty of non-flyers that have boasted how they never did get flying in Dreanor because they liked it.

There are kiddies that stay up late playing WoW when mommy and daddy told them to go to bed. Can't babysit the weak minded. Does mom and dad have to go to bed at 9pm too? Or do they stay up and fuck like mink? :P

Its not baby sitting the weak minded its basic game design.

There are plenty of pro flyers moaning that flight paths break their immersion and offer zero gameplay - and yet they use flight paths. Are they weak minded?

Unless you understand that people in multiplayer games will go for convenience over gameplay you will continue to make stupid arguments.

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Your opinion is no greater than his.

Yes, but my opinion makes sense.

[WowIsDead64]

The more you respond the more it seems like you just don't like the game at all. When flying is your sole reason for playing, there are different games out there that more closely fit what you're looking for, especially when you say you avoid all content that flying is not a part of.
As stated, the chance at legendaries and gear upgraded from world drops and the obvious rep grinds, there's even more reason to not worry much about all these "useless mob" kills. Honestly, you're making Blizzards arguement for them by literally stating all the reasons for flight is for bypassing things.

Generalization - is one of the fallacies, you know. That "if you don't like ground content - then you don't like entire game" argument is nonsense. I just said. Some people prefer challenge and competition - and they do Mythic raids. Some don't - and they do LFR. If there wouldn't be LFR - they won't all of a sudden start to do Normals or Heroics. They won't raid at all. And you can't say, that they are wrong - it's their PREFERENCE. It's their CHOICE. You can't dictate them, how they should enjoy the game. But there are players, who tend to dictate others, how they should play the game. I.e. "I do Mythic raids and you have to do them too - otherwise you don't deserve raiding at all". There is nothing bad in this. They are "Achievers", who want to have competition with other players and exclusive rewards, that will show their high status among other players. But Blizzard shouldn't listen to them. They are so called "special snowflakes". They have their rewards - they have Mythic gear, they have mounts, achievements, etc. It's enough for them to show their status. Demanding removal of content from other players - is way too much honour for them.

Same here. Some players prefer to do content on a ground. I understand them. They want challenge. They want explore world. They want WPVP. But there are players, who don't. And situation is simple: I either do outdoor content with flying or don't do it at all. And as Blizzard have already taken 5ppls, LFR and will take away Garrisons - I won't have any things to do in game. And even if 5ppls and LFR would be good enough - they are not enough, cuz I still will need some solo content to do. I play different classes and specs. Yeah, my favourite specs are - Healer and Tank. But sometimes I want to play as DPS too. And after fail of Cata, Blizzard realized, that they have to provide solo content too, so players won't depend on healers, tanks, queues, elitists, trolls and other toxic players in PUG groups. Sometimes I want to play alone - by myself. So, taking flying from me and not providing any alternatives = taking half of content from me. This is last straw for me, sorry.

So, we need better compromise, than pathfinder. We need locations without flying (Wintergrasp, Tol'Barad, IoT, TI, etc) - I will simply ignore this locations, as I done it in the past. We need servers without flying - pristine servers - I will simply play on "Normal" server. We need per-location pathfinder achievement. Is it really so hard? The fact, that Blizzard don't use any of this great solutions, just shows, that their intention - is to FORCE all players to do content on a ground. It shows, that they want to cater to anti-flyers, cuz anti-flyer not only want to stay on a ground - they also don't want to see other players, flying over them. Principally. It's Blizzards' choice to cater to such a players. It's their choice, that they want to lose me as paying customer. WOD has already shown, that it was terrible idea. They want to try again? Lol.

[Bun-Bun]

you were complaining how Blizz should allow you to create your own fantasy by giving lots of different abilities.

Again, never said that. Read my posts or don't reply.

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Yes, but my opinion makes sense.

Not anymore than his or mine. Maybe to you it does, but that's because it is your opinion.

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MoP offered the kind of content you like and still lost subs. Cata offered the kind of content you like even whilst leveling and still lost subs. Basically I don't think sub numbers can be used in this argument.

No other xpac lost subs at the rate of which WoD did. WoD lost more than double the amount of subs in the first 4 months of release than MoP (and people HATED the MoP lore, apparently).

But you're right, we can't use sub numbers anymore because Blizzard... erm sorry, Activision stopped releasing those numbers; because it makes them look bad.

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It still doesn't allow you to snipe one particular enemy whilst ignoring other hostile NPCs and the surrounding environemnt. We're comparing them because they're both open-world fantasy RPGs with developers that decided the game can be better developed if they don't allow players free movement in the z-axis despite previous versions of the game having that ability.

the MMO in front drastically changes the game environment.

Different lore, different combat mechanics. There is zero point in comparing these two games.

At least when people were comparing Diablo III to WoW they had Blizzard in common...

As to your previous version having flight argument... what version of Skryim had flight?

[Dhrizzle]

Again, never said that. Read my posts or don't reply.

I'm reading your posts but the words you use don't make it clear what you are trying to say. I assumed that when you complained about Blizz not letting you choose your own fantasy it had something to do with flight as that is the topic of this thread. If that isn't what you are saying, can you please clarify what your stance is on flight and why you feel it should be an option?

No other xpac lost subs at the rate of which WoD did. WoD lost more than double the amount of subs in the first 4 months of release than MoP (and people HATED the MoP lore, apparently).

If you ignore the new-expansion spikes Cata, MoP and WoD all lost subs at about the same rate.

But you're right, we can't use sub numbers anymore because Blizzard... erm sorry, Activision stopped releasing those numbers; because it makes them look bad.

Having the most popular subscription MMO a decade after its release does not make Activision-Blizzard look bad.

the MMO in front drastically changes the game environment.

What does that mean?

Different lore, different combat mechanics. There is zero point in comparing these two games.

At least when people were comparing Diablo III to WoW they had Blizzard in common...

As to your previous version having flight argument... what version of Skryim had flight?

Are you seriously arguing that Diablo and WoW are comparable because they have the same logo, whilst Skyrim and WoW are totally incomparable despite both being quest-based, open-world, full-3D fantasy RPGs?

Morrowind is a previous games in the Elder Scrolls series that allowed players to Levitate. The ability was absent from later games for reasons very similar to why Blizzard decided to delay/remove/delay flight.

We were really limited in Morrowind because the player could recall or levitate out of many situations and break them. There was a lot of good gameplay and level design work that we just couldn’t do and now we can.

Back then it seemed like many good ideas we had were shot down when another designer would say ‘oh yeah, I just levitate or recall away.’ So we got rid of them.

[Bun-Bun]

I'm reading your posts but the words you use don't make it clear what you are trying to say. I assumed that when you complained about Blizz not letting you choose your own fantasy it had something to do with flight as that is the topic of this thread. If that isn't what you are saying, can you please clarify what your stance is on flight and why you feel it should be an option?

Exactly, I was talking about fantasy in World of Warcraft, which flight does affect. Everything else you are making assumptions and exaggerating. Stop putting words in my mouth.

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If you ignore the new-expansion spikes Cata, MoP and WoD all lost subs at about the same rate.

Can't ignore those spikes. There are valid reasons they are they and are applicable to any argument about the successes and failures of Blizzard and WoW.

Draenor had a mass exodus never seen before in WoWs history.

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Having the most popular subscription MMO a decade after its release does not make Activision-Blizzard look bad.

If that were applicable to the current sub number then they would still be shown.

Regardless if the numbers are still good in the industry, they are bad compared to the company history, which is bad for the company and its investors.

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Are you seriously arguing that Diablo and WoW are comparable because they have the same logo, whilst Skyrim and WoW are totally incomparable despite both being quest-based, open-world, full-3D fantasy RPGs?

Yes. Arguments can be made between Diablo and WoW based on Blizzard and the way they handle themselves as a company. No direct comparisons between the games should be made.

WoW and Skryim are different genre's, again, not to be directly compared. Next you will tell me Final Fantasy XII is comparable to WoW.

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Morrowind is a previous games in the Elder Scrolls series that allowed players to Levitate. The ability was absent from later games for reasons very similar to why Blizzard decided to delay/remove/delay flight.

Skyrim is a completely new game compared to Morrowind: Skyrim is not an expansions pack. Your argument is moot.

Bethasda's reasons do not apply as again, different games/genre's and different lore.

If blizzard wants to make a new game and have complete design freedom then by all means, do so. But as a paying customer for almost a decade, I have every right to be pissed about how they handled this.

[Eapoe]

Generalization - is one of the fallacies, you know. That "if you don't like ground content - then you don't like entire game" argument is nonsense. I just said. Some people prefer challenge and competition - and they do Mythic raids. Some don't - and they do LFR. If there wouldn't be LFR - they won't all of a sudden start to do Normals or Heroics. They won't raid at all. And you can't say, that they are wrong - it's their PREFERENCE. It's their CHOICE. You can't dictate them, how they should enjoy the game. But there are players, who tend to dictate others, how they should play the game. I.e. "I do Mythic raids and you have to do them too - otherwise you don't deserve raiding at all". There is nothing bad in this. They are "Achievers", who want to have competition with other players and exclusive rewards, that will show their high status among other players. But Blizzard shouldn't listen to them. They are so called "special snowflakes". They have their rewards - they have Mythic gear, they have mounts, achievements, etc. It's enough for them to show their status. Demanding removal of content from other players - is way too much honour for them.

Same here. Some players prefer to do content on a ground. I understand them. They want challenge. They want explore world. They want WPVP. But there are players, who don't. And situation is simple: I either do outdoor content with flying or don't do it at all. And as Blizzard have already taken 5ppls, LFR and will take away Garrisons - I won't have any things to do in game. And even if 5ppls and LFR would be good enough - they are not enough, cuz I still will need some solo content to do. I play different classes and specs. Yeah, my favourite specs are - Healer and Tank. But sometimes I want to play as DPS too. And after fail of Cata, Blizzard realized, that they have to provide solo content too, so players won't depend on healers, tanks, queues, elitists, trolls and other toxic players in PUG groups. Sometimes I want to play alone - by myself. So, taking flying from me and not providing any alternatives = taking half of content from me. This is last straw for me, sorry.

So, we need better compromise, than pathfinder. We need locations without flying (Wintergrasp, Tol'Barad, IoT, TI, etc) - I will simply ignore this locations, as I done it in the past. We need servers without flying - pristine servers - I will simply play on "Normal" server. We need per-location pathfinder achievement. Is it really so hard? The fact, that Blizzard don't use any of this great solutions, just shows, that their intention - is to FORCE all players to do content on a ground. It shows, that they want to cater to anti-flyers, cuz anti-flyer not only want to stay on a ground - they also don't want to see other players, flying over them. Principally. It's Blizzards' choice to cater to such a players. It's their choice, that they want to lose me as paying customer. WOD has already shown, that it was terrible idea. They want to try again? Lol.

As I've stated with you, if you don't enjoy the game without flight, then it's your right to choose not to play it. No one is saying keep playing the game or else, just pointinig out the issues your topic brings up. I didn't say if you don't like ground content you don't like the game. I did state that it sounds like you don't enjoy it, though, as everything you talk about not playing is without flight, and that it sounds like you are more interested in skipping things than actually playing the game. The people that stick to LFR and avoid normal, and higher difficulties, also have the right to choose not to play if LFR was suddenly removed, or had never been introduced. It would be a design decision, and whether or not people agreed with it, it would still happen if Blizz suddenly felt a need to remove it.
While you consider them great solutions, Blizzard does not want to do that. Yes, Blizzard is forcing you on the ground (not sure why that's bolded) to play the game they want it to be played. If this is game destroying in any way for you, you have every right to stop playing. Blizzard is not catering to anyone but themselves and the game they want to make.

[WowIsDead64]

I did state that it sounds like you don't enjoy it, though, as everything you talk about not playing is without flight, and that it sounds like you are more interested in skipping things than actually playing the game.

You and Blizzard seem to not understand, that there are different ways to "actually play the game" and enjoy content and that this ways can change with time. I highly recommend you to read "Designing Virtual Worlds" book - "bible of MMO developers". Big improvement of MMOs in comparison to earlier game genres - is that they cater to widest auditory of players, not some narrow niche. The way, player enjoys content, changes with time. First you enjoy gaming process itself - first games, arcades, were catering to such kind of players. When gaming process stops being interesting for you - you stop playing such a game. Then you start to explore game - first you want to beat this game to see, how it ends, then you start to find some secrets and hidden paths. So games, that had some story and lore were implemented. Then you start to achieve some goals in this game in order to beat other players - something like max score, fastest run, beating game on hardmode, etc. So next improvement in game industry was - implementation of games, that had competition. And the last thing, that can be fun, after all other things have been already done - is playing with friends. Socialization - was last improvement, implemented in game genres. That's how MMOs have been born. And in case of xpack and content patches players can temporary change their interests - cuz there may be new gameplay, new things to explore, new goals to achieve.

Biggest Blizzards' mistake - is that they assume, that when they release new content, players start enjoying gaming process itself, like game is brand new and fresh, for at least a year since it's release. They are wrong. There is no way back. When new content is being released - players usually look for content, they were doing in the past xpack. For example. Yeah, I was doing some random stuff just for fun and was enjoying gaming process itself at release of WotLK - first xpack since Vanilla, I was playing seriously. I was even ZOMFG doing some PVP... Fuuuuuu! But then I discovered 5ppls and raids. And I have been doing them since 3.0 and till release of Cata. And when Cata was released, then guess what? I wasn't doing some random stuff just for fun - I immediately looked for 5ppls and raids to do. And biggest Blizzards' mistake was - to say "Heroics and Raids aren't for you". At the end, after trying to adopt to this situation, it leaded me to quit the game prior to 4.2.

Same here. I have been doing WotLK content with flying. I have been doing Cata content with flying. It was big mistake to assume, that I would enjoy MOP content without flying. And I have been doing Tanaan with flying for months. There is no chance, that I will enjoy no flying again, no matter, how good ground content on Broken Isles will be.

So what? Blizzard assume, that when they will release Broken Isles, players will start enjoying them the same way, they were enjoying game, when they were playing it for the first time - somewhere back in Vanilla/TBC/etc. No! It's just nostalgia! Nothing more! There is no way back! Players will enjoy content this way for a week may be - then they'll want to have flying back, cuz doing the same World quest again, again and again without flying - is pure tediousness and annoyance. And refusing to bring flying back at that moment will cause large amount of damage to game, as it happened in WOD.

I understand, that Blizzard do it, cuz some players tell them, that they miss those old times, when they enjoyed doing some random stuff just for fun. But this is just nostalgia - nothing more. And Blizzard kill their game for players, who still enjoy it. Cuz taking content away from players, who play it to achieve some goals, not just for "temporary" fun, in order to give it to "cyclical" ones = automatically losing half of playerbase. Most stable part of playerbase. And Blizzard risk to lose both stable and cyclical players, if they will continue towards this direction of development. I don't want it to happen, cuz I still enjoy Wow.

[Deleted]

There are plenty of pro flyers moaning that flight paths break their immersion and offer zero gameplay - and yet they use flight paths. Are they weak minded?

No they have no other option left besides quit the game because NOBODY would play the game if there would be neither personal flight nor flightpaths. On the other hand, if I have personal flight, I only use flight paths if I have to go AFK. In any other case, I prefer to fly by myself.

Still does not change the fact that flight paths are an abomination. They are inferior to either personal flight or a teleport network or a mix of both.

[Eapoe]

No they have no other option left besides quit the game because NOBODY would play the game if there would be neither personal flight nor flightpaths. On the other hand, if I have personal flight, I only use flight paths if I have to go AFK. In any other case, I prefer to fly by myself.

Still does not change the fact that flight paths are an abomination. They are inferior to either personal flight or a teleport network or a mix of both.

Again, that remains to be seen. I do agree that it would become a very niche game that might leave Blizzard in the area of becoming F2P, but I don't think it's fair to say nobody would play.

[Mafic]

No they have no other option left besides quit the game because NOBODY would play the game if there would be neither personal flight nor flightpaths. On the other hand, if I have personal flight, I only use flight paths if I have to go AFK. In any other case, I prefer to fly by myself.

Still does not change the fact that flight paths are an abomination. They are inferior to either personal flight or a teleport network or a mix of both.

Good post.

Let me add that Legion has no smoke and mirrors to hide how poor reaching world content will be.

[Eapoe]

You and Blizzard seem to not understand, that there are different ways to "actually play the game" and enjoy content and that this ways can change with time. I highly recommend you to read "Designing Virtual Worlds" book - "bible of MMO developers". Big improvement of MMOs in comparison to earlier game genres - is that they cater to widest auditory of players, not some narrow niche. The way, player enjoys content, changes with time. First you enjoy gaming process itself - first games, arcades, were catering to such kind of players. When gaming process stops being interesting for you - you stop playing such a game. Then you start to explore game - first you want to beat this game to see, how it ends, then you start to find some secrets and hidden paths. So games, that had some story and lore were implemented. Then you start to achieve some goals in this game in order to beat other players - something like max score, fastest run, beating game on hardmode, etc. So next improvement in game industry was - implementation of games, that had competition. And the last thing, that can be fun, after all other things have been already done - is playing with friends. Socialization - was last improvement, implemented in game genres. That's how MMOs have been born. And in case of xpack and content patches players can temporary change their interests - cuz there may be new gameplay, new things to explore, new goals to achieve.

Biggest Blizzards' mistake - is that they assume, that when they release new content, players start enjoying gaming process itself, like game is brand new and fresh, for at least a year since it's release. They are wrong. There is no way back. When new content is being released - players usually look for content, they were doing in the past xpack. For example. Yeah, I was doing some random stuff just for fun and was enjoying gaming process itself at release of WotLK - first xpack since Vanilla, I was playing seriously. I was even ZOMFG doing some PVP... Fuuuuuu! But then I discovered 5ppls and raids. And I have been doing them since 3.0 and till release of Cata. And when Cata was released, then guess what? I wasn't doing some random stuff just for fun - I immediately looked for 5ppls and raids to do. And biggest Blizzards' mistake was - to say "Heroics and Raids aren't for you". At the end, after trying to adopt to this situation, it leaded me to quit the game prior to 4.2.

Same here. I have been doing WotLK content with flying. I have been doing Cata content with flying. It was big mistake to assume, that I would enjoy MOP content without flying. And I have been doing Tanaan with flying for months. There is no chance, that I will enjoy no flying again, no matter, how good ground content on Broken Isles will be.

So what? Blizzard assume, that when they will release Broken Isles, players will start enjoying them the same way, they were enjoying game, when they were playing it for the first time - somewhere back in Vanilla/TBC/etc. No! It's just nostalgia! Nothing more! There is no way back! Players will enjoy content this way for a week may be - then they'll want to have flying back, cuz doing the same World quest again, again and again without flying - is pure tediousness and annoyance. And refusing to bring flying back at that moment will cause large amount of damage to game, as it happened in WOD.

I understand, that Blizzard do it, cuz some players tell them, that they miss those old times, when they enjoyed doing some random stuff just for fun. But this is just nostalgia - nothing more. And Blizzard kill their game for players, who still enjoy it. Cuz taking content away from players, who play it to achieve some goals, not just for "temporary" fun, in order to give it to "cyclical" ones = automatically losing half of playerbase. Most stable part of playerbase. And Blizzard risk to lose both stable and cyclical players, if they will continue towards this direction of development. I don't want it to happen, cuz I still enjoy Wow.

This was also covered many pages ago. The "damage" you talk about has already happened. The people who quit over the issue are gone already, the people who came back showed Blizzard they will be cyclical (leave at the beginning and back once flight hits), and the slightly over 1/2 playerbase that stayed even when Blizzard announced no flight ever again. It won't be bigger, and will actually have much less impact this 2nd time around as the people who would be hit already did and the future players that will quit will be leaving for the same reasons of old (content gap/not fun anymore/real life issues/not enough time).
You state Blizzard is listening to a minority of players, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As they (devs) stated, they like the way the game felt and played without flight. Blizzard has also never made changes based on a minority of a playerbase that I am aware of. You also make the mistake that many other people do and just assume that 1 change lost 1/2 the playerbase. At the end of last released numbers, WoD had around 8-9 million players pre announcement down to 5 million at last release. So already you are looking at OVER 1/2 the playerbase who were not affected, and roughly 2-3 million people who quit at one point. These players (while stating in previous posts that the majority left from flight) also left for other reasons around the same time.
You also make the mistake of continuing to support my summation that you just don't like the game. Your posts state you do content with flying, you don't enjoy content. You further it by stating everything in the world you can't just bypass is tedious and boring. The things you are talking about IS the game, at lease Bun posted reasons he/she enjoys flight and the feeling they get from it. You talk about the game like with or without flight it's just a chore and not something to be enjoyed.
I also pointed out the emphasis Blizzard is putting into killing these mobs and getting out into the world. If you can't enjoy the game for what it is, then you have the right to quit...just like I have the reason to quit if Blizzard makes a change that destroys the game for me.

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Good post.

Let me add that Legion has no smoke and mirrors to hide how poor reaching world content will be.

What are you talking about exactly?