Did Poland and Romania destroy the EU?

[Deleted]

So basically, you have no idea how economics works and don't understand that cheap workers are more desirable than good workers. Let's do a little experiment shall we?

You have a building site, you need a bricklayer; you have two choices.

Steve Smith
2 years working as a bricklayer
Will work for £9.00 an hour 30 hours a week.

Ivan Cheekibreekov
1 years working "On a building site"
Will work for £7.00 under the books for 40 hours a week.


Guess who gets the job here? Ivan every time exactly because of reasons you said.

Oh, and no, you can't outsource building to a different country you clod.

Under the books? Isnt't that a little bit criminal? While we already started to go a little bit felonious, why dont change the building trade to something more profitable? Gunrunning? Drugs?

Criminal activities cannot be the norms.

[Lord Berserker]

This is false.

Job value is based on how many people can do it.

The larger the pool of labour, the less a job is worth.

Private sector jobs devalue the more labour there is to fill the job.

Free movement of labour adds to the pool of labour, hence private sector role worth devalues, hence the majority electorate voted against this.

I'm gonna be honest here, very few people on MMO-Champion have probably worked in construction. It is a VERY traditional profession. Especially in the UK. Building sites used to be the Layman's college. You'd start off as general labour, carting around objects for the other workers, fixing up brews, Mixing Cement, Easy stuff. If you were interested in more and you were reliable, you'd be set onto different tasks and learn new skills. Welding, Carpentry, bricklaying, Plastering.

Eastern European workers have effectively killed this transition of skills.

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Under the books? Isnt't that a little bit criminal? While we already started to go a little bit felonious, why dont change the building trade to something more profitable? Gunrunning? Drugs?

Criminal activities cannot be the norms.

Working under the books is Construction is not unheard of. It's not exactly evil when it meant things like only working half a weeks work and whatnot.

[Acidbaron]

Plenty of countries keep ramping up their controls on work sites to remove those and fine companies that employ illegal workers. Polish and other eastern european people working here for more than 6 months already have to pay the same in taxes, it is made up for it compared to how much less they would earn back in their country.

However those that do come work here to afford more comfort over there often go back to completely broken families, since they barely see their kids and wife. So it ain't all perfect for their end either, but as stated if it is ruining a sector that's merely your government failing to uphold its laws and enforce them. So by that we can conclude those who struggle the most under it have the most incompetent politicians and leaders, especially those that simply point to immigrants since removing them from the equation wouldn't solve the problem for obvious reasons.


Also one cannot have destroyed something when it is still intact and functioning.

[Cyberowl]

This is false.

Job value is based on how many people can do it.

The larger the pool of labour, the less a job is worth.

Private sector jobs devalue the more labour there is to fill the job.

Free movement of labour adds to the pool of labour, hence private sector role worth devalues, hence the majority electorate voted against this.

Job value is based on the qualifications surrounding it; if everyone and their mother could do factory job x, you will get payed shit. You have a stable amount of people who can do the job and a stable amount of how many people want the job done. Only if the labor is more cost efficient than additional capital (machines), the demand for that labor will increase. Individual eople will undercut each other, but they will only do so until they reach their own bottom limit; aggregate that behavior and you end up with the value of this specific job.

I recommend you go down to a British building site and see the exact situation.

Cheap labour trumps intelligent labour every time.

Companies don't care it takes forever to build a house, they just care how cheaply they can do it.

No, they care about all the involving factors. How many hours, how much the hour, how good the work, how good the worker, the buyer being fine with the work, everything. No company will survive hiring rude people that are bad at their jobs, no matter how cheap they will do it. There just isn't a market for that kind of labor where people will have to fix something monthly.

[Lord Berserker]

Plenty of countries keep ramping up their controls on work sites to remove those and fine companies that employ illegal workers. Polish and other eastern european people working here for more than 6 months already have to pay the same in taxes, it is made up for it compared to how much less they would earn back in their country.

However those that do come work here to afford more comfort over there often go back to completely broken families, since they barely see their kids and wife. So it ain't all perfect for their end either, but as stated if it is ruining a sector that's merely your government failing to uphold its laws and enforce them. So by that we can conclude those who struggle the most under it have the most incompetent politicians and leaders, especially those that simply point to immigrants since removing them from the equation wouldn't solve the problem for obvious reasons.


Also one cannot have destroyed something when it is still intact and functioning.

Alright then Mr Facist EU.

Steve wants to be paid £9.00 because he needs a decent living wage

Ivan will ask for Minimum Wage because he shares a bedsit with 5 other Polish workers and to him Minimum wage is a goldmine.

How will Steve ever get the job now.

You see I remember this thing called "British grown beef" sort of a big deal. it was effectively a tax on things not British grown beef to promote British produce.

Yet we can't do that for British workers can we due to the EU.

[Cizr]

SO I have to ask, would the EU be more unified if large, poorer countries like Poland and Romania were to be kicked out?

which countries should be kicked out? Should Greece,Spain and Portugal be kicked out too?They are also pretty poor.

[Lord Berserker]

No, they care about all the involving factors. How many hours, how much the hour, how good the work, how good the worker, the buyer being fine with the work, everything. No company will survive hiring rude people that are bad at their jobs, no matter how cheap they will do it. There just isn't a market for that kind of labor where people will have to fix something monthly.

Only a Economics STUDENT would be this Naive. Can you tell the difference between "Okay" welding and "Great" Welding.

Would you care?

[Kallisto]

You say my argument isn't remotely intelligent, but you are literally arguing "Fuck locals, let the poor jobs remain poor jobs"

No our argument is simple. There is nothing outside of petty nationalism that compels someone to hire someone local to do a job someone else can do just as well. So why should I hire someone when I can hire someone else who can do it better, faster and cheaper?

Simply put, British people are not entitled and if they think they are then maybe they should wake up and realise they are not super special. And not being born in Britain doesn't entitle you either.

[Lord Berserker]

No our argument is simple. There is nothing outside of petty nationalism that compels someone to hire someone local to do a job someone else can do just as well. So why should I hire someone when I can hire someone else who can do it better, faster and cheaper?

Simply put, British people are not entitled and if they think they are then maybe they should wake up and realise they are not super special. And not being born in Britain doesn't entitle you either.

So you didn't read my argument, and you're just Anti-british.

k.

[Malacrass]

Want me to give you a hot milk, pat you on the back and tell you everything is going to be okay?

Hah, I'm perfectly fine where I stand, but thank you regardless!

Job market is competitive and it is constantly changing, that's a fact.

So let's make it even more competitive for those who already have it tough, great idea. Those plebs can always get better if they work hard enough, right? There is no such thing as intelligence or various disabilities preventing them from climbing the ladder. Nope.

Fact is the union hurts the weakest members of the british society. And this "lol, suck it up" rhetoric is certainly one of the reasons why it came to the Brexit.

[Deleted]

Putin did. Putin was mad at the EU for the sanctions the EU placed on him for Ukraine and Crimea. He got Russia's long term buddy Assad the Shiite president of Syria to terrorize the Sunni Syrians and drive them fleeing into the EU like cattle. Over a million people, this was enough to destabilize an already shaky EU.

That sounds like a great theory, too bad almost all refugees here are from Iraq and not Syria.

Now, which assholes destabilized that country I wonder.

[Cyberowl]

Only a Economics STUDENT would be this Naive. Can you tell the difference between "Okay" welding and "Great" Welding.

Would you care?

No, if both does the intended job. The great welding has some benefit for me? Sure, then I care. If I settle with okay welding, I pay the price for okay welding. If I don't, I pay more.

You could make the same argument about a restaurant. People who just want to grab a bite go to the kebab on the corner. If they want to eat something really good and have the ambiente, they will go to an expensive restaurant.

People pay for the quality of the work; you do a better job than your competition and you will eventually profit.

[Noradin]

Alright then Mr Facist EU.

Steve wants to be paid £9.00 because he needs a decent living wage

Ivan will ask for Minimum Wage because he shares a bedsit with 5 other Polish workers and to him Minimum wage is a goldmine.

How will Steve ever get the job now.

You see I remember this thing called "British grown beef" sort of a big deal. it was effectively a tax on things not British grown beef to promote British produce.

Yet we can't do that for British workers can we due to the EU.

If your minimum wage is too low to live on for the citizens then why did you set it that low?

[Lord Berserker]

So let's make it even more competitive for those who already have it tough, great idea. Those plebs can always get better if they work hard enough, right? There is no such thing as intelligence or various disabilities preventing them from climbing the ladder. Nope.

Fact is the union hurts the weakest members of the british society. And this "lol, suck it up" rhetoric is certainly one of the reasons why it came to the Brexit.

Not even that, Case in point. Boilers. Eastern Europeans fuck them up SO MUCH my brother is making a killing doing strictly boiler repair. They never take on apprentices either ( thank god ) so less and less people can become Plumbers.

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No, if both does the intended job. The great welding has some benefit for me? Sure, then I care. If I settle with okay welding, I pay the price for okay welding. If I don't, I pay more.

You could make the same argument about a restaurant. People who just want to grab a bite go to the kebab on the corner. If they want to eat something really good and have the ambiente, they will go to an expensive restaurant.

People pay for the quality of the work; you do a better job than your competition and you will eventually profit.

Actually you can't make the same argument there, good to know you know literally nothing about welding.

Good welding can mean the different between falling apart in 10 years or 100 years. But you showed how well the "Economists" care about Quality on a building site.

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Mass education has increased average intelligence.

Everything is relative.

More skilled people = less bargaining power.

Honestly, im probably twice your age, and i can wholeheartedly say you know shit.

He's a Economics student trying to tell experienced Laborers how their job economy works while they're living in it.

[Cyberowl]

Hah, I'm perfectly fine where I stand, but thank you regardless!



So let's make it even more competitive for those who already have it tough, great idea. Those plebs can always get better if they work hard enough, right? There is no such thing as intelligence or various disabilities preventing them from climbing the ladder. Nope.

Fact is the union hurts the weakest members of the british society. And this "lol, suck it up" rhetoric is certainly one of the reasons why it came to the Brexit.

Not too long ago, Germany was huge in the fabric industry. Then a lot of Asian countries were competing with Germany and we did give up the industry. People adapted, found new jobs in more profitable industries. Clinging to their old industry would have hurt them more in the long term. A German worker, with all the capital that we have, could still produce more fabric than the average Chinese worker. But he could also produce more parts for cars than the Chinese worker, which is way more profitable. So he does that and at the end of the day he is better off.

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Not even that, Case in point. Boilers. Eastern Europeans fuck them up SO MUCH my brother is making a killing doing strictly boiler repair. They never take on apprentices either ( thank god ) so less and less people can become Plumbers.

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Actually you can't make the same argument there, good to know you know literally nothing about welding.

Good welding can mean the different between falling apart in 10 years or 100 years. But you showed how well the "Economists" care about Quality on a building site.

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He's a Economics student trying to tell experienced Laborers how their job economy works while they're living in it.

Jesus christ, you are dense. Welding that lasts 100 years instead of 10 years IS the extra benefit I was talking about, at which point I start caring.

[Lord Berserker]

Not too long ago, Germany was huge in the fabric industry. Then a lot of Asian countries were competing with Germany and we did give up the industry. People adapted, found new jobs in more profitable industries. Clinging to their old industry would have hurt them more in the long term. A German worker, with all the capital that we have, could still produce more fabric than the average Chinese worker. But he could also produce more parts for cars than the Chinese worker, which is way more profitable. So he does that and at the end of the day he is better off.

So the UK should abandon it's construction industry, It's INTERNAL CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY because the EU forced tons of low skill low incentive workers on us to clog it up?

My brother is a welder. Where is he supposed to go if he can't get welding jobs?

[Acidbaron]

Alright then Mr Facist EU.

Steve wants to be paid £9.00 because he needs a decent living wage

Ivan will ask for Minimum Wage because he shares a bedsit with 5 other Polish workers and to him Minimum wage is a goldmine.

How will Steve ever get the job now.

You see I remember this thing called "British grown beef" sort of a big deal. it was effectively a tax on things not British grown beef to promote British produce.

Yet we can't do that for British workers can we due to the EU.

Nothing in my post comes near to fascism, that seems to be your attitude towards others not sharing your opinion by reducing the conversation to insults and childish taunts

Other nations seem to be dealing with the same issues present in the UK without resorting to protectionist measures, measures how you even put it would be bad for the tax payer and economy in that example.
Regarding minimum wage, in Belgium we use an indexation of our wages tied to the cost of living it gets adjusted as it goes up if that is enough is always a point of debate. In any other case, what you point out to me is that the UK lacks a basic minimum wage in general that covers the cost of living this is again not on migrants but your government.

In my current company we have several people employed from eastern europe, they don't provide a competition for me based on my wage or any other person even those that just started out since the wages minus bonuses are set in stone (and it's adjusted based on what category you are placed in and how many months you have experience more or less also this is determined by the sector and the government a joint agreement that's re-negiotated every so many years, for anything else there's the indexation to cover the increase in cost of living somewhat.


On top of that if Steve is un-employed for a long amount of time there are other programs he can rely on we hand out bonuses to taking in people fresh out of school, also give out bonuses for companies taking in people closer to retirement, if you fall without a job you can get educated in another direction by government ran programs, if you are 2 years out of work you can even apply to get your unemployment paid out while getting educated by a private organization or college.

Perhaps all these things actually exist and you are just completely unaware of it, or once more it's your government inability to address issues, the only issue we have here are foreign contractors working illegally under false premises and thus trying to avoid social taxes making them cheaper those are tracked down and them including the company they work for are fined heavily. When i used to work construction back when i started out as a simple electrician those check ups would generally mean depending on the size of the construction site around 10+ would suddenly be there checking up your paperwork, this was done randomly and so far i'm told these control have only increased over the years as immigrant workers became more present in those sectors.

That's how you deal with issues in a global economy you deal with the problems it causes, you don't try to turn back time and go back to protectionist measures. Ask any half-decent economist how bad protectionist measures are for your economy long term.

But hey, doing all that is hard, cost time and isn't easy to set up, it's far easier to merely blame immigrants

[Cyberowl]

So the UK should abandon it's construction industry, It's INTERNAL CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY because the EU forced tons of low skill low incentive workers on us to clog it up?

My brother is a welder. Where is he supposed to go if he can't get welding jobs?

Where the seamstresses went. Somewhere else. The market doesn't stop for you.

[Lord Berserker]

Jesus christ, you are dense. Welding that lasts 100 years instead of 10 years IS the extra benefit I was talking about, at which point I start caring.

You wouldn't know shit though would you? See, here is the thing.

You're not paying for an Extra Benefit. You're just assuming it is. The difference there is One is a Cheap Polish worker and the other is someone actually educated in how to fucking weld. Because you're such a hoiler than thou student you don't understand how the Construction trade works AT ALL.

You know all those "Unintelligent jobs" you oh so happily said should be abandoned by people who are "lazier than the Eastern Europeans"? They ARE jobs that require intelligence but it's dumbasses like you who don't know the difference.

[Noradin]

So the UK should abandon it's construction industry, It's INTERNAL CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY because the EU forced tons of low skill low incentive workers on us to clog it up?

My brother is a welder. Where is he supposed to go if he can't get welding jobs?

It was the UK that "forced" those workers on the EU.