[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Interesting, all it needed was another measly 10% to put it over the others?

Which would mean that it was likely at least competitive before that little buff.

[Vanyali]

Interesting, all it needed was another measly 10% to put it over the others?

Which would mean that it was likely at least competitive before that little buff.

i mean, it was, just I don't think people had done math much in here to prove it.

Prio that I've gotten from the discord:

Annihilation -> TG (w/ bloodlet) -> Eye Beam (w/ Anguish) -> Chaos Strike

All might change with new builds, etc etc

[Deleted]

Yes, bloodlet is better than both of those.

Now I'm confused (yet again), I thought felblade was better even with the 10% buff to bloodlet. So what's the priority then, throw the glaive on cooldown or what?

Also, there's a discord thing?

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

i mean, it was, just I don't think people had done math much in here to prove it.

Prio that I've gotten from the discord:

Annihilation -> TG (w/ bloodlet) -> Eye Beam (w/ Anguish) -> Chaos Strike

All might change with new builds, etc etc

Wait, so Anguish makes Eye Beam worth it for single target?

[ujx]

I'm not sure, but could someone tell if I'm on the right track with my guesses regarding the builds?

Nemesis
Unleashed power / Demon reborn
Fel barrage
Would be good on fights with adds like assault, iskar and mannoroth

Momentum
Demon reborn
Demonic
I see this being more of a "general" playstyle so it would work well on many other encounters but I see it shining on bursting down priority targets like in fights like mythic kilrogg or mythic soc.


Nemesis / Fel Eruption
Demon Reborn
Chaos Blades
I see this build being the other "general" playstyle. It's pretty straight forward, especially for the typical "burst everything you got at start" kind of fights. Where Bl is used at start, you pop Nemesis > fel rush in > cap fury > chaos blades > on-command use trinket if you have it > meta > dump fury on chaos strikes and pool it up and dump it again.
I see this being good on fights like Iron raver, kormrok, council, manno and archimonde.

Could anyone tell me if i'm on the right track?

Because I KNOW some builds will shine much better on certain fights. For example as a rogue I'd never go sub for assault as that's for single target. I'd always go combat for fights with more than 1 - 2 targets.

From all the raid testing I have done, the main build for almost every fight is Prepared/Momentum/Felblade/Demon Reborn/Chaos Blades. The only tier that typically gets changed a lot is the first. Chaos Cleave for cleave fights, Fel Mastery for everything else.

People above are saying Bloodlet > Felblade but even if it is, it's gotta be minor. I prefer having a gap closer when Fel Rush is on CD from keeping up Momentum, plus it gives a lot of fury and resets a lot.

[Vanyali]

Wait, so Anguish makes Eye Beam worth it for single target?

From what I'm seeing, yes indeed.

But again, I'm not the smart person that figures these out / runs the sims, so anything in-depth would be best served to ask them directly.

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From all the raid testing I have done, the main build for almost every fight is Prepared/Momentum/Felblade/Demon Reborn/Chaos Blades. The only tier that typically gets changed a lot is the first. Chaos Cleave for cleave fights, Fel Mastery for everything else.

People above are saying Bloodlet > Felblade but even if it is, it's gotta be minor. I prefer having a gap closer when Fel Rush is on CD from keeping up Momentum, plus it gives a lot of fury and resets a lot.

You don't need a gap closer on raid bosses, that's not why felblade was the best. And tbh, you don't even need that big of a boss to be able to use VR / FR without a cancel or FBlade; you can do it by 180 turning and smart positioning. You can see it on the testing dummy in Fel Hammer.

Chaos Blades is good ST, Demonic is good MT.

[aggixx]

A padding build where you take bloodletting/master of the glaive. It's only good for constant 3+ cleave which is only one fight right now, High Botanist mythic and even then it's wasted damage as the other two bosses heal upon the other's death.

Master of the Glaive isn't just for padding, its the best all around option for Demonic Momentum. Demon Reborn does very little, the only thing it really gives you of value is Fury of the Illidari reset. You do get VR and Fel Rush reset too but its not as significant as it is for Chaos Blades since your burst during meta isn't as big of a part of your DPS.

Interesting, all it needed was another measly 10% to put it over the others?

Which would mean that it was likely at least competitive before that little buff.

It was already better before, it is even better now.

From all the raid testing I have done, the main build for almost every fight is Prepared/Momentum/Felblade/Demon Reborn/Chaos Blades. The only tier that typically gets changed a lot is the first. Chaos Cleave for cleave fights, Fel Mastery for everything else.

People above are saying Bloodlet > Felblade but even if it is, it's gotta be minor. I prefer having a gap closer when Fel Rush is on CD from keeping up Momentum, plus it gives a lot of fury and resets a lot.

It's not minor at all. It's ~4.4% total DPS more on single target, and even more on multi target.
http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...lents/102.html

Bloodlet does have a fair bit of wasted damage potential of course, I assume that's why they buffed it. In practice though it just makes it that much better for boss damage where the wasted damage is almost zero. And the gap is so large on multiple targets that I'm sure you can waste a good chunk of the ignite and it still be pretty competitive with the other options.

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Wait, so Anguish makes Eye Beam worth it for single target?

Yes, but only barely. If you're not sure whether you'll need it for 2+ targets in the next 45s then its better to hold it.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, there's a discord thing?

https://discord.gg/wAgNJ

[ujx]

You don't need a gap closer on raid bosses, that's not why felblade was the best. And tbh, you don't even need that big of a boss to be able to use VR / FR without a cancel or FBlade; you can do it by 180 turning and smart positioning. You can see it on the testing dummy in Fel Hammer.

Felblade has many uses other than just closing the gap on a boss. Many fights have adds that spawn in Egypt and even with double Fel Rush, closing the gap isn't possible. More time on target > some minimal Bloodlet damage. Until sims come out and show a large disparity between Felblade and Bloodlet, I'm sticking to Felblade. Especially at low gear levels, our crit is pretty bad, so we're constantly Fury starved.

And as for Demonic for multi-target, I don't see it. A lousy 5 seconds of Meta after Eye Beam allows for one Death Sweep. I think if you're going to choose an AoE talent, Fel Barrage is far superior. Demonic is such a garbage talent except for maybe leveling.

:Edit: Just saw the Bloodlet numbers from Pawkets. Seems decent. Will have to try it.

[aggixx]

I thought eruption was a higher dps increas in that row...

Eruption is terrible, doesn't deal nearly enough damage for how long the cooldown is. The other talents are better by a huge margin.
http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...lents/106.html

[Vanyali]

Felblade has many uses other than just closing the gap on a boss. Many fights have adds that spawn in Egypt and even with double Fel Rush, closing the gap isn't possible. More time on target > some minimal Bloodlet damage. Until sims come out and show a large disparity between Felblade and Bloodlet, I'm sticking to Felblade. Especially at low gear levels, our crit is pretty bad, so we're constantly Fury starved.

And as for Demonic for multi-target, I don't see it. A lousy 5 seconds of Meta after Eye Beam allows for one Death Sweep. I think if you're going to choose an AoE talent, Fel Barrage is far superior. Demonic is such a garbage talent except for maybe leveling.

Pawkets is here with the math and sims (and better yet, the ability to understand and explain it easily!), but for me.. yeah, you're wrong about demonic in all the ways you can be. You can get two (three sometimes?) death sweeps, and Fel Barrage is weirdly inconsistent.

And most adds spawning in africa melee generally dont' go after, as it's pointless.

[aggixx]

And most adds spawning in africa melee generally dont' go after, as it's pointless.

Generally this, if you cant get there in 1 Fel Rush or VR then in most cases melee aren't going to be assigned to kill it in the first place.

Bloodlet doesn't do quite as well on priority targets if they are short-lived though, so if you really really care about your damage to priority targets and don't care at all about the boss then you could probably justify using Felblade.

[neck deep]

anyone that tested legendary items during alpha know if the throw glaive bracers work on the first target or how their scaling works? is it 100/150/225? 100/150/200?

[ujx]

Pawkets is here with the math and sims (and better yet, the ability to understand and explain it easily!), but for me.. yeah, you're wrong about demonic in all the ways you can be. You can get two (three sometimes?) death sweeps, and Fel Barrage is weirdly inconsistent.

And most adds spawning in africa melee generally dont' go after, as it's pointless.

Demonic: 5 seconds of meta after Eye Beam. Death Sweep has a 8 sec cd, ~5.8'ish with haste from meta and gear. Idk how you are getting 2-3 in the course of one Demonic.

As for Felblade uses:

Nythendra - double rush to drop debuff off. Unless you blur for the extra charges, you're going to be slow on getting back in.

Il'gynoth - tons of target swapping. Hit or miss on whether you will have charges up.

Elerethe Renferal - a lot of movement, especially swapping platforms.

Ursoc - running out your debuff will likely waste both your charges, unless you blur, slow to get in.

Dragons of Nightmare - Very long distances to travel, especially mythic.

Cenarius - add swapping across the platform multiple times. Also have to run and clear your debuff.

Xavius - adds need to be killed that spawn at the edge of the room. They are also spread out so once one dies, you have to close the gap to the other, then back to the boss.

Chronomatic Anomaly - add spawns in Egypt and yes, melee included have to swap.

Trilliax - have to go eat cakes which often spawn on the opposite side of the room. Will need more than Fel Rush to do this optimally and retain high time on target.

Grand Magistrix Elisande - multiple adds that require melee to hit them spawn anywhere in the room, often far far away.

So yeah, Felblade isn't just for gap closing a Patchwerk boss. It is priceless on target swapping fights. Also what interval is being ran in the sim on Felblade since it can reset it's cooldown fairly often?

[aggixx]

anyone that tested legendary items during alpha know if the throw glaive bracers work on the first target or how their scaling works? is it 100/150/225? 100/150/200?

The Fel Rush legendary is 1x/1.2x/1.4x/etc so the bracers should work the same.

[Vanyali]

Demonic: 5 seconds of meta after Eye Beam. Death Sweep has a 8 sec cd, ~5.8'ish with haste from meta and gear. Idk how you are getting 2-3 in the course of one Demonic.

As for Felblade uses:

Nythendra - double rush to drop debuff off. Unless you blur for the extra charges, you're going to be slow on getting back in.

Il'gynoth - tons of target swapping. Hit or miss on whether you will have charges up.

Elerethe Renferal - a lot of movement, especially swapping platforms.

Ursoc - running out your debuff will likely waste both your charges, unless you blur, slow to get in.

Dragons of Nightmare - Very long distances to travel, especially mythic.

Cenarius - add swapping across the platform multiple times. Also have to run and clear your debuff.

Xavius - adds need to be killed that spawn at the edge of the room. They are also spread out so once one dies, you have to close the gap to the other, then back to the boss.

Chronomatic Anomaly - add spawns in Egypt and yes, melee included have to swap.

Trilliax - have to go eat cakes which often spawn on the opposite side of the room. Will need more than Fel Rush to do this optimally and retain high time on target.

Grand Magistrix Elisande - multiple adds that require melee to hit them spawn anywhere in the room, often far far away.

So yeah, Felblade isn't just for gap closing a Patchwerk boss. It is priceless on target swapping fights. Also what interval is being ran in the sim on Felblade since it can reset it's cooldown fairly often?

Going through this quickly, as I'm needing to finish a chapter:

Nythendra: building around "what if i get a debuff" in this way is weird. There's also plenty of time to walk in and out as other melee will and VR / FR back in when in range.

Ursoc: Same as above, with the added "you can fel rush back with him for momentum buff" caveat.

Dragons of Nightmare: Your tanks should be swapping, you should not be. Easier to have two move than the entire raid.

Cenarius: Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallly depends what add you're talking about, and your tank should be pulling the two adds together near (but not on or close enough for debuff) cenarius. Should also be tanked near pool so clearing is easy for tanks.

Chronomatic Anomaly: Movement is part and parcel of this fight, and Fblade'ing can actually murder the shit out of you because of orbs.

Trilliax: Cakes also spawn in melee. Ranged have priority on the ones far as fuck.

Grand Magistrix Elisande: Melee get close, ranged get far.. same as.. every other fight in existence, really.

Felblade could make it easier, I guess. It's absolutely not necessary at all, nor worth the loss of damage in most cases.

[aggixx]

Demonic: 5 seconds of meta after Eye Beam. Death Sweep has a 8 sec cd, ~5.8'ish with haste from meta and gear. Idk how you are getting 2-3 in the course of one Demonic.

Yeah three is just not possible without silly encounter specific haste buffs. Two you can get at 14.28% haste which isn't too bad, though.

Also what interval is being ran in the sim on Felblade since it can reset it's cooldown fairly often?

Don't understand the question. The reset is modeled the way it works in game.

Edit: Redid math with hasted Eye Beam.

[Vanyali]

Yeah three is just not possible without silly encounter specific haste buffs. 2 takes an almost impractically high amount of haste to have passively all the time, at least for the first tier of gear. You do get it guaranteed with lust/hero though.

ah, i remembered the haste part, just not where it was applied to right. /salute

[Antiplicity]

Looking at the simulations for BiS trinkets (subject to change with tuning) I notice the new Darkmoon card being quite good due to the Crit. I am a little puzzled as to how the trinket works; does it give static Crit which changes over the course of an encounter? It doesn't look like a proc, nor is it an on use. Quite an odd trinket, something that is very different from all the other trinkets in the game. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[ujx]

Yeah three is just not possible without silly encounter specific haste buffs. Two you can get at 14.28% haste which isn't too bad, though.



Don't understand the question. The reset is modeled the way it works in game.

Edit: Redid math with hasted Eye Beam.

I didn't know how simcraft handled Felblades variable cooldown. Didn't know if you had to give it a cooldown or if it could simulate in game procs on it's own.

[neck deep]

Looking at the simulations for BiS trinkets (subject to change with tuning) I notice the new Darkmoon card being quite good due to the Crit. I am a little puzzled as to how the trinket works; does it give static Crit which changes over the course of an encounter? It doesn't look like a proc, nor is it an on use. Quite an odd trinket, something that is very different from all the other trinkets in the game. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

so think of it this way. it's always passive agility/passive crit, but the amount of crit changes randomly every 10 seconds or whatever the interval is. it has a range of 8 different values, but i haven't paid attention to if it's completely random, or has some kind of pattern.