Arms Legion Discussion

**Kirbydude65** · 2016-07-15, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Selly

That's not really an unreasonable opinion when the cooldown is as long as it is though. If it were still the 20 seconds it is on live, then I agree it would be a pretty silly notion, but 45 seconds without being able to do anything meaningful is honestly pretty shitty (especially with the rage starvation that comes with not getting any procs).

To a degree I agree with you, which is why I'm ok with a minor reduction in the cooldown or the two mitigation ideas listed earlier.

That being said no matter what the cooldown, at times you're going to have a point where you're waiting a significant period of time were CS doesn't proc.

Does it suck? Yeah. That's the point. It can't always be up. It has to have parts were the spec doesn't he access to CS. Otherwise numbers have to be rebalanced, and the moments where you are chaining CS together, done feel as fun. Variance exists so things don't become static and boring.

And don't tell me that a large amount of RNG doesn't exist for other specs (Arcane Mages on Live), or in other games (Mana Flood/Screw in Magic the Gathering for example). It can be good for the game to have some level of RNG. It isn't to the point where people are being so melodramatic about.

That makes sense though, doesn't it? Why mitigate something that's fun and feels good? It's not even a desire to be overpowered (well, I'm sure it is for some people), just to have fun while playing; it's only a problem if it leads to unacceptably high overall performance, and that's just a tuning issue. One that might end up making the spec a little less bursty, but I don't think that would be a huge problem, honestly.

It could play a huge issue with the identity of the spec moving forward. If the resets are occurring at a rate that never makes it feel like there's a cooldown to CS it reduces the importance of the CS Windows. Suddenly it's up all the time and it never feels special.

Or its been balanced so that your time with CS and without, aren't as important.

It also has a lot more implications than that. What happens to the Legendary Pants that apply CS with Heroic Leap? What happens to the tier bonus that gives us extra CS resets?

While I'm not a fan of the design to prop up specs with other items, it seems to be a trend that Blizzard isn't backing down from, and shold be considered when giving feedback.

All of these are reasons why it isn't ok, for it to just be reduced to older levels that we're used to with Arms.

Deleted · 2016-07-15, 03:21 PM

Even if the cooldown got reduced to 25 seconds you would still have up to 17-second gaps of no CS. That is more than enough downtime to make it feel rewarding when you get chain procs.

To be clear, I think the proc rate and average uptime is fine on the beta, at least as Fervor spec. I only have a problem with the extreme gaps that can occur. 37 seconds is way too fucking long to not be benefiting from your mastery and central spec mechanic at all.

**Qoma** · 2016-07-15, 03:29 PM

The "feast or famine" idea is potentially ok, if that means that after tuning, when an Arms warrior is "feasting" that his damage is higher than the norm across all classes, just as when the Arms warrior is "famining" that his damage is lower than the norm. The question is whether that's actually the case. And that taken at face value doesn't even take into consideration the issues it could raise in PvP situations.

**Aqueous** · 2016-07-15, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kirbydude65

RNG isn't inherently bad. In fact the game has benefitted from RNG being implemented into class design on a mechanical level.

As long as tools are given to help combat bad RNG (IE Warbreaker, the RPPM System, ect ) in the hands of a skilled player there should be no issues with swingy damage.

I completely disagree that any adjustments are just bandaid fixes for a larger problem. There has to be a downtime in any spec. That's how this game has functioned for the last 8 years. Streaks of bad RNG are part of any spec, and can screw over players.

The only thing that needs to happen for Arms (in terms of Tactician and CS) is a slight change to the cooldown of Colossus Smash so you're not as penalized for not reseting the ability. 10 seconds at most is what's needed for the adjustment.

I never said RNG is inherently bad, I said RNG factored into core mechanics is inherently bad. Core mechanics are the absolute basis of playing a character. Playing is the key word in that sentence. RNG in core mechanics takes control away from the player and makes it feel like watching a slot machine. If I wanted to play Roulette, I'd go and play Roulette.

You can have peripheral mechanics or additional abilities affected by RNG and it's fine, like Overpower for example. Having something that buffs your damage output by 50%+ revolve around RNG is ludicrous, however.

Additionally, you say streaks of bad RNG are a part of any spec - correct, but it's about the scale of that effect that has on class performance. A bad streak of RNG should not feel like a class' momentum grinds to a halt. This isn't about downtime, it's about control over that downtime and the extent of that downtime (feast & famine vs. a bit slower)

For example, let's say CS uptime is 50%, just as a hypothetical figure. There's two ways to approach reaching roughly 50% - either:

a) You have CS last 8 sec with a CD of 45 sec and have a CD refresh with 4PPM.
b) You have CS last 8 sec with a CD of 16 sec.

One of those approaches maintains player control yet still achieves the desired uptime. Not that I'm saying you need to completely eliminate RNG but a moderate approach is required.

I'm not saying screw RNG completely and I understand the flavour it can bring. However, the entire issue here is about how far you go with RNG. Going too far with it is not only unsatisfying from a playing perspective but also difficult to balance effectively. It also compromises quality design which is what I meant in an earlier post by Blizzard seemingly allowing their love for RNG to undermine the quality of their mechanics design.

I'm also not interested in hearing arguments comparing Arms to other specs with the same issue (like Arcane Mages). Saying another class/spec has it just as bad does not validate it, it simply means other players are experiencing the same issues.

**Selly** · 2016-07-15, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Kirbydude65

Does it suck? Yeah. That's the point. It can't always be up. It has to have parts were the spec doesn't he access to CS. Otherwise numbers have to be rebalanced, and the moments where you are chaining CS together, done feel as fun. Variance exists so things don't become static and boring.

Given what the current design seems to be going for, no, it can't always be up, and that's definitely not what I'm advocating. But as Erica says, even with a 25-second cooldown, you could still have a 17-second gap, which is plenty sucky.

And don't tell me that a large amount of RNG doesn't exist for other specs (Arcane Mages on Live), or in other games (Mana Flood/Screw in Magic the Gathering for example). It can be good for the game to have some level of RNG. It isn't to the point where people are being so melodramatic about.

Absolutely, but I never said it doesn't exist for other specs; I just said it doesn't exist for all other specs, and personally I enjoy the ones without it a lot more. Arms has historically always been one of them, to boot. IMO, RNG should be an added spice, not the core of a spec. Overpower (if specced) is an example of good RNG, which feels fun when it procs, as opposed to pissing you off when it doesn't (awful shoulder slam animation notwithstanding … honestly, does anyone actually like that?).

Whether it's worth getting annoyed over in the current build, well, that's subjective. Some, like yourself, are going to be fine with it, while for me (and others), regularly going 40+ seconds without procs simply makes me want to not play Arms. That's not really being melodramatic, that's just difference in how much tolerance one has for this stuff.

For what it's worth, it ends up feeling a lot better in PvP, due to the Shadow of the Colossus talent. But that's a bit of a band-aid solution, and it becomes a required talent a lot of the time.

What happens to the Legendary Pants that apply CS with Heroic Leap? What happens to the tier bonus that gives us extra CS resets?

While I'm not a fan of the design to prop up specs with other items, it seems to be a trend that Blizzard isn't backing down from, and shold be considered when giving feedback.

I'm not a fan of it either, and wish they'd do away with it. The copy-pasted Diablo III legendaries feel extremely frickin' gimmicky. I'd much rather have »boring« set bonuses and actually functioning baseline specs. As you say though, we seem to be stuck with this.

**Kirbydude65** · 2016-07-15, 04:57 PM