[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Hexxidecimal]

If demonic and points in chaos vision and anguish we do not cancel iirc

Ah this is related to my question. Personally I don't like the idea of Chaos Blades much. Mostly because I don't like pushing DPS cooldowns that are 2 min or more. Not that that is a terribly long time or because they are bad, I just don't like feeling like a boss for 12-30 seconds then feeling ineffectual for 1 plus minutes. So I was thinking about taking Demonic with points in Chaos Vision over Chaos blades. My questions was simply is that worth doing on single target fights over Fel Barrage or Chaos Blades. Or more succintly, is Demonic + Chaos Vision a substantial DPS loss on single target fight compared to the other two 110 talents.

[Zeeket]

Momentum isn't a traditional passive, its an augment to already existing abilities, one which fundamentally changes your gameplay, theres a fair few of these coming in legion, where they change or augment abilities you already have, we don't really have just the "passive and active" distinction for talents now, its more "Passives, Actives and Augments to existing abilities"

[ufta]

Could someone with beta access clarify the interaction between Eye Beam, Demonic, and Demon Reborn?
I'm assuming that the 5-sec meta from Demonic does not reset cooldowns, correct?

[Sarkol]

I didn't ignore anything. Active versus Passive is part of balancing, no doubt, but that doesn't mean they want Demon Blades to be statistically inferior.

Take Holy Shield and Seraphim in the last row of Protection Paladin during WoD. The first is Passive, the latter Active, so Seraphim should just be better according to you. But it's not. They're pretty much even - each excels in different ways - and if you ask which you should take you're likely to get supporters for both. You might even get the odd Empowered Seals advocate.

That's balance. That allows players to choose based on preference and not spreadsheets, and that makes for a far better game than having people demand you take one talent or the other because it is "better." It'll still happen because for some reason a lot of WoW players love nothing more than telling other people what to do and feeling superior because THEY took Talent A and that stupid noob took Talent B, but that doesn't make the game better and Blizzard should not encourage such with blatantly unbalanced options.

Except that's factually, unequivocally, what they want, and how they're balancing it. Demon Blades is being balanced to be the inferior Stationary talent on that row. What part of that do you not understand?

[Shirofune]

Could someone with beta access clarify the interaction between Eye Beam, Demonic, and Demon Reborn?
I'm assuming that the 5-sec meta from Demonic does not reset cooldowns, correct?

It doesn't.

[Gateway Ewok]

If demonic and points in chaos vision and anguish we do not cancel iirc

Odd. The AMR simulator is using Chaos Blades and Eye Beam on single target.

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and Blizzard should not encourage such with blatantly unbalanced options.

But they do.

Take Holy Shield and Seraphim in the last row of Protection Paladin during WoD. The first is Passive, the latter Active, so Seraphim should just be better according to you. But it's not.

Legion's talent system is vastly different from WoD's.

Why are you ignoring a Blizzard employee saying something that directly contradicts what you're saying? Either way, not really gonna push any further if you're set on being stubborn.

[Deleted]

Except that's factually, unequivocally, what they want, and how they're balancing it. Demon Blades is being balanced to be the inferior Stationary talent on that row. What part of that do you not understand?

To defend the guy a little - they didn't say directly that they would make DB "the worst". They just said, that it wouldn't be the highest. It could still be on par with the other talent, with the 3rd overtaking.
And i think we all know, that they want Prepared to be the highest, according to their assumption.



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[jayinjersey]

It doesn't.

Does it still "not" now that Demon Reborn doesn't really reset anything major?


Could see them revert that so there is some synergy...
its not like unlimited Nova is really going to be a thing and if you keep trying to go back into Meta with EB, you aren't going to have much rage to do stuff in the Demonic Meta (at least I don't think you will)
the repeated use of Blur might be a bit OP though.

[Sangomah]

Odd. The AMR simulator is using Chaos Blades and Eye Beam on single target.

Might be that after the last build, its worth it as long as you have the traits.

[Deleted]

maybe off-topic, but i play wow quite a lot, but i do not enjoy proffessions. if i do not take skinning and lw on my havoc DH, will i be at a distinct disadvantage in getting geared?

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has anyone tried this spec.

Fel Mastery > Prepared > Bloodlet > Soul Rending > Fel Eruption > Master of the Glaive > Demonic

Traits needed - Sharpened glaive, chaos vision both 3/3 and anguish ( they are all in one direction when filling up traits)

Rotation(prob could be better just a quick draw up) :

1) fel rush in if possible for fury gen
2) use both throw glaives (applies bloodlet) on CD (only use both charges together to get the 400% bloodlet DoT so this is a 20 sec CD)
3) Fel Eruption on CD
4) Eye Beam on CD ( you can work it out so that you Vengeful Retreat out, Eye beam, and fel rush back in so you have capped Fury for Chaos/Annihaltion
5) Chaos strike/Annihalation (in meta/demonic proc)
6) Demonic Bite to build fury for above abilities.

That to me seems fairly fun and easy, with the movement from VR and fel rush still included. and with the numbers of everything, probably would not be too far behind, if behind at all with logs.

[Sangomah]

MotG only helps your pull dps. After that it doesnt do anything.

Even on pure single target, you only need 1 though as after the first rush you want to start building fury.

The tooltip on motg is so horrendously written. Fel Eruption does not hit hard enough atm. It needs to be put on 1400-1600 to be a viable pick in that row. The rest seems ok though!

(MotG always triggers me <.< )

[Deleted]

MotG only helps your pull dps. After that it doesnt do anything.

Even on pure single target, you only need 1 though as after the first rush you want to start building fury.

The tooltip on motg is so horrendously written. Fel Eruption does not hit hard enough atm. It needs to be put on 1400-1600 to be a viable pick in that row. The rest seems ok though!

(MotG always triggers me <.< )

surely MotG used on a target twice in a row, that damage which ok is low, but now 200% of that for bloodlet x2 because you use both charges together not 1 at a time. so every 20 seconds(10 sec recharge time per throw glaive charge) you get throw glaive x2 plus a 10 second DoT doing 400%(200x2) of damage done. that must be pretty good additional dps seeing as over that next 10 seconds you will be doing your other stuff.

[Zeeket]

maybe off-topic, but i play wow quite a lot, but i do not enjoy proffessions. if i do not take skinning and lw on my havoc DH, will i be at a distinct disadvantage in getting geared?

Not a distinct disadvantage, but it will allow you to "tailor" your stats on your gear before normals, once normals are unlocked its going to matter far less but if you get a good titanforge roll on an offset piece for example (after normal is unlocked as you cant roll higher than 850 before then, was mistaken on that earlier).

But yeh pre-raid you can, with a bit of luck, roll perfect stats on every single piece of your armor and upgrade it with Obliterum to 850 ilvl which is going to be pretty valuable until you snap up tier and shit.

[Gaxar]

In an ideal scenario, you should play with a talent because you like the playstyle, not because it gives you better dps. Play Momentum because you like Momentum, but don't expect brownie points because you're playing the "harder" talent.

I'm sorry but this mindset is absurd. Look - the entire raiding scene is based on this presumption - that if you do something thats harder than other stuff, you get better rewards. By your logic, a mythic raider should be rewarded the exact same as an LFR raider. Thats just not the case. Now if the delta between playing spec A (easy to play) and spec B (hard to play) is huge, then i will happily agree that that is not a great design. Thats not my job though - thats Blizzards and their aim needs to be = "a dps increase that is large enough to make it worth trying to master Spec B, but low enough so as to not make Spec A so totally worthless it forces players who are not good enough or dont like the playstyle to HAVE to, or feel like they have to, play Spec B".

This game is all about carrots on sticks. Being rewarded, at whatever level you play at. Like pet battles? play them and maybe win a new pet! like crafting? craft stuff and maybe get lucky and craft better stuff! like raiding? raid stuff and get better gear! like raiding harder? raid harder stuff and get even better gear, plus mounts and titles!

One of those facets of reward is the simplest and basest endorphine rush when someone feels like they did something shit hot, that other people find hard to do. Why do world first lists exist? raid logs that show who did the highest dps/heals etc? Server rankings? Of couuuuurse there are going to be MILLIONS of players that have no interest in that level of play, but to say that it is unimportant or that it shouldnt be recognised or rewarded, or conversely rewarded the exact same as someone who doesnt play at that same level of expertise baffles me. Why the fuck do we watch overpaid footballers at Man United each week instead of Maidstone United shitters? Aside from the real world money bullshit etc, its because the reward for playing well means you rise to the top and you are recognised as being a top player and that makes you feel good. Why does Streamer A whose capabilty rests at LFR level only have 10 people watching him, while Streamer B who is a heroic raider has 1000?

Whether you wish it wasnt this way or not, you have to acknowledge that some people enjoy eeking out the maximum amount of pew their class can do, and are able to do it. You are lobbying to remove that aspect of the game because not everyone can play that class at that same level. You are telling people where they should derive their pleasure from according to how you believe it should derived.

Just imagine a game where all playstyles, while different, produced the same number at the end. What motivation is there to keep playing when i have mastered that level of play? when i can hit that number consistently because i happen to find it easy. When hitting that number means i win. what happens? i quit and find another game that can push me more. You are describing a world in which games have 1 difficulty setting. Thats bad.

- signed
Not a mythic raider

[Deleted]

I'm sorry but this mindset is absurd. Look - the entire raiding scene is based on this presumption - that if you do something thats harder than other stuff, you get better rewards. By your logic, a mythic raider should be rewarded the exact same as an LFR raider. Thats just not the case. Now if the delta between playing spec A (easy to play) and spec B (hard to play) is huge, then i will happily agree that that is not a great design. Thats not my job though - thats Blizzards and their aim needs to be = "a dps increase that is large enough to make it worth trying to master Spec B, but low enough so as to not make Spec A so totally worthless it forces players who are not good enough or dont like the playstyle to HAVE to, or feel like they have to, play Spec B".

This game is all about carrots on sticks. Being rewarded, at whatever level you play at. Like pet battles? play them and maybe win a new pet! like crafting? craft stuff and maybe get lucky and craft better stuff! like raiding? raid stuff and get better gear! like raiding harder? raid harder stuff and get even better gear, plus mounts and titles!

One of those facets of reward is the simplest and basest endorphine rush when someone feels like they did something shit hot, that other people find hard to do. Why do world first lists exist? raid logs that show who did the highest dps/heals etc? Server rankings? Of couuuuurse there are going to be MILLIONS of players that have no interest in that level of play, but to say that it is unimportant or that it shouldnt be recognised or rewarded, or conversely rewarded the exact same as someone who doesnt play at that same level of expertise baffles me. Why the fuck do we watch overpaid footballers at Man United each week instead of Maidstone United shitters? Aside from the real world money bullshit etc, its because the reward for playing well means you rise to the top and you are recognised as being a top player and that makes you feel good. Why does Streamer A whose capabilty rests at LFR level only have 10 people watching him, while Streamer B who is a heroic raider has 1000?

Whether you wish it wasnt this way or not, you have to acknowledge that some people enjoy eeking out the maximum amount of pew their class can do, and are able to do it. You are lobbying to remove that aspect of the game because not everyone can play that class at that same level. You are telling people where they should derive their pleasure from according to how you believe it should derived.

Just imagine a game where all playstyles, while different, produced the same number at the end. What motivation is there to keep playing when i have mastered that level of play? when i can hit that number consistently because i happen to find it easy. When hitting that number means i win. what happens? i quit and find another game that can push me more. You are describing a world in which games have 1 difficulty setting. Thats bad.

- signed
Not a mythic raider

i agree there should be some kind of skill cap and reward for achieving that skill cap.

the problem comes with different classes, it would not be fun if you knew you were a good player with good gear playing as well as is possible and still see results below a friend you know is a maybe slightly above average player.

However, i do not look at competition between classes when raiding, i find it is much healthier if instead of saying ok i want to beat that lock or beat that pally. just say to yourself ok last time i did X Dps or damage on this boss. this time i want to beat that by X amount.

TBh that is also why i hate the pug mentality of for example ok everyone under 40k dps gets kicked. there are so many people i come across who just aim to beat that mark rather than do their best DPS. suppose to each their own.

[Gaxar]

i agree there should be some kind of skill cap and reward for achieving that skill cap.

the problem comes with different classes, it would not be fun if you knew you were a good player with good gear playing as well as is possible and still see results below a friend you know is a maybe slightly above average player.

However, i do not look at competition between classes when raiding, i find it is much healthier if instead of saying ok i want to beat that lock or beat that pally. just say to yourself ok last time i did X Dps or damage on this boss. this time i want to beat that by X amount.

TBh that is also why i hate the pug mentality of for example ok everyone under 40k dps gets kicked. there are so many people i come across who just aim to beat that mark rather than do their best DPS. suppose to each their own.

Well yes, then you are talking about something completely different, which you acknowledge. Class balance is down to blizzard, but lets say it is imperfect - then your competition lies within your own class, rogue against rogue, DH against DH.

pug mentality - eesh. what ya gonna do.

[Deleted]

so every 20 seconds(10 sec recharge time per throw glaive charge) you get throw glaive x2 plus a 10 second DoT doing 400%(200x2) of damage done.

And how does that do more damage than getting one cast every 10 seconds? In terms of numbers of casts MotG only gives you one more per fight. In fact, waiting until you have two charges negates the whole point of having charges in the first place, since the main advantage of multiple charges is that you can delay casting it a bit without losing any casts.

[Zeeket]

And how does that do more damage than getting one cast every 10 seconds? In terms of numbers of casts MotG only gives you one more per fight. In fact, waiting until you have two charges negates the whole point of having charges in the first place, since the main advantage of multiple charges is that you can delay casting it a bit without losing any casts.

theoretically it allows you to bank 2 charges for a little extra damage on an important burst phase

[enchiridion]

we now live in a world where 2 active abilities are called passive vs momentum which is actually a passive.

yes momentum requires more effort, but it's also extremely high risk for very little extra reward at it's current tuning levels single target. it will likely have no competition multi target, but that was expected all along.

i'll probably play FE single target, and momentum for anything with adds of any substantial duration.

The passive we are talking about isnt how blizz classifies it via tooltip, we are talking about passive playstyle, Demon Blades removes actions from your rotation, whereas momentum adds abilities you wouldnt use rotationally to your rotation.

However, Momentum actually requires you A LOT of global cds on subpar abilities (damage-wise, of course) in order to activate it, while Nemesis it's just 1 global and then it's just build/spend fury on optimal abilities.

Actually with fel mastery it doesnt use all that many on truely subpar abilities as VR is off the GCD

theoretically it allows you to bank 2 charges for a little extra damage on an important burst phase

The idea behind this as far as i understand is you keep TG from capping, but it gives you more spell options if you have bad fury returns from annihilate during a MM window.

[Qlix]

Thought the consensus on the Discord channel was that Throw Glaive was an ignite effect. Bloodlet with MotG would make it beneficial to bank 2 charges and get the larger dot rolling... would it not?