[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Deleted]

Not exactly, the person who tested it out was already using momentum / nemesis. So this is with that in mind.
HOWEVER, if the first throw glaive crits and you have legendary wrist, bloodlet, MotG and nemesis or momentum up you'd be doing a LOT more dmg, look up, I edited the other post. You'd be doing 1,6m on the 3rd target with the bleed I think?

ah yes i see. i dont think a crit is definitely for double damage? but even if it isnt that is still going to be at the lowest the 1.2mish mark with low gear.

[Meshog1]

so, i cant find anywhere where it mentions demon hunter specific legendarys in legion. would someone mind linking them or telling what they are? im quite curious to know how good they are

[Deleted]

Well I don't know exactly how much crit increases the original dmg. checked on wowwiki and it says it's 2x the damage.
Either way, it'll still be doing a lot of dmg in AoE situation. It'd also be a lot of damage in ST situations compared to FE.

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ye the ST and AoE capabilities of this are so good. ah ok so 2x damage lol that is gonna be insane AoE. for such a small fury cost and short cooldown will probably be really viable for using on adds during a fight and recharging it to use for the next add spawn.

i wonder if there will be a way to control what ricochet hits a mob so you can focus important mobs first

[Deleted]

well It said that's how much it at least did in MoP, in WoD for pvp crit was reduced to x1,5 the base damage.

As for how to control the ricochet. If there are many mobs like, 10 or something then I don't think it'll be possible, hell, you could use 2 charges of TG and the 2 other ricochets might not even hit the same target. But if you only have 3 then it's going to be much easier to control.
Instead of using TG with all of your buffs and everything up on the target you want to do the most dmg on, you'd want to use it on the add, this way you're at least sure that the boss will be the 2nd or 3rd hit.

If it ricochets to the closest mobs first, then maybe you could have your off-tank tank the adds a liiil bit further from the boss, throw it on the add and that way it'd ricochet to the other add and then lastly to the boss.

ye good point will have to get testing and see if theres any patterns

lets assume crit is x2 for pure enjoyment

you crit both TG and hit 200k on each one. with bloodlet and motg/momentum.

1st target 400k / 800k DoT
2nd Target 600k / 1.2m DoT
3rd Target 900k / 1.8m DoT

haha . with a 20 sec recharge and crit being our main stat. this is not outside the realm of possibility

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also ofcourse who knows what TG will be hitting by 850 ilvl and beyond

[AvCloudy]

That 5% does NOT force me to play it. its 5%. if me doing 5% more dps is the difference between my raid group killing a boss or not then my raid has got bigger fucking problems than me not running a build i dont like the look of (however unfair it is of me to dislike the look of something without playing it - but then shit, i dislike the look of people i dont know, only to find out later i acutally quite like em).

The end result of a raid that doesn't think a 5% damage increase is worth it is a raid group that doesn't pot, flask, food or play optimal specs. Your individual 5% is almost certainly not going to affect a boss kill, but 5% from every player in the group very well might. Nobody can, or should, be able to force you to play something you don't like, but equally don't be surprised if someone doesn't bring you to a fight because of it.

[Deleted]

damn I completely forgot about momentum / Nemesis buff too.
The numbers we'll be seeing now should be more realistic then I guess.

BADLY GEARED iLVL 802 DH WITH MOMENTUM OR NEMESIS ACTIVE USING THROW GLAIVE:

Legendary wrist (without bloodlet & MotG) - non crit:
100k dps on 1st target
150k dps on 2nd target
200k dps on 3rd target


Legendary wrist with bloodlet (without MotG) - non crit:
100k dps on 1st target / bleeds for 200k over 10 sec
150k dps on 2nd target / bleeds for 300k over 10 sec
200k dps on 3rd target / bleeds for 400k over 10 sec


Legendary wrist with bloodlet & MotG - non crit:
100k dps on 1st target / bleeds for 400k over 10 sec
150k dps on 2nd target / bleeds for 600k over 10 sec
200k dps on 3rd target / bleeds for 800k over 10 sec


EDIT:
Now imagine if the first hit CRIT, which means double the damage on the initial hit, which could really escalate things ( if it works the way I think it does).

Legendary wrist with bloodlet & MotG - CRIT:
200k dps on 1st target / bleeds for 800k over 10 sec
300k dps on 2nd target / bleeds for 1.2m over 10 sec
350k dps on 3rd target / bleeds for 1.6m over 10 sec

EDIT AGAIN:
I guess that if you'd also have chaos blades popped you'd be doing a bit more damage, depending on how much mastery you'd have.

fyi, bloodlet doesnt crit, it simply does dmg based on the dmg of your throw glaive, so if TG crits then bloodlet does 2x the crit dmg over 10 sec so:

Legendary wrist with bloodlet & MotG - CRIT:
200k dps on 1st target / bleeds for 400k over 10 sec
300k dps on 2nd target / bleeds for 600k over 10 sec
450k dps on 3rd target / bleeds for 900k over 10 sec

ofc, thats assuming the legendary adds 50% extra dmg based on the latest hit, and not based on the first (200/300/400 vs 200/300/450 etc)

[enchiridion]

The end result of a raid that doesn't think a 5% damage increase is worth it is a raid group that doesn't pot, flask, food or play optimal specs. Your individual 5% is almost certainly not going to affect a boss kill, but 5% from every player in the group very well might. Nobody can, or should, be able to force you to play something you don't like, but equally don't be surprised if someone doesn't bring you to a fight because of it.

again, logically speaking-this is false. Just because he doesn't like a playstyle doesnt mean he doesnt take his dps seriously (Slippery slope is a logical fallacy). The only time i could see reasonably a regular group kicking someone because of one talent being suboptimal by a couple percent is a guild that is somewhere around the realm of top 100, and all of those raiders (i would hope) know that they arent gonna be allowed to pick whatever talents they want. So you are generating a situation that is unlikely at best and if he wants to play one way its REALISTICALLY prolly not gonna be a problem.

[Deleted]

Bloodlet tooltip reads as this : 'Throw Glaive causes targets to bleed for 200% of the damage inflicted over 10 sec. of the effect is reapplied, any remaining damage will be added to the new Bloodlet'

so one glaive will cause a bloodlet that does 200% of the throw glaive damage as a DoT over 10 seconds. ok.

with master of glaive you have 2 instant charges of throw glaive. So now..

you have one bloodlet doing 200% damage, but you use both throw glaive charges together...

As per the tooltip - any remaining damage on current bloodlet, will be added to the new bloodlet.

so you have 2 x 200% DoT for 10 seconds = 400% of throw glaive damage as a dot over the next 10 seconds.

a 400% damage 10 second DoT sounds pretty good to me

And your point is? You still haven't explained how stacking the TGs is supposed to be an overall damage increase, which is what you seemed to be suggesting the post I quoted, it may be burstier, but it does not in any way shape or form increase the total damage per TG over using them one at a time.

[Lillpapps]

It would be a dps increase when adds spawn now and then during the fight. Such as the grasping hand on kormrok, hulking berserkers on killrog, adds during air phase on Iskar or adds on archimonde or other fights where there are 20 seconds between adds spawning.

That doesn't have anything to do with stacking the bleed though but more that you get more freedom when to use tg with motg. Stacking the bleed in itself is not a dmg increase.

And to explain bloodlet. If you use 2 tg after each other you do not get 2x 200% bleeds for 10 seconds. After the second tg is thrown you have a bleed that ticks for 200% of the last tg + the damage that is left from the first tg. You can't wait 9 seconds of the bleed and then refresh it up to 10 sec 400% bleed. It would be 200% + the last tick of the previous bloodlet.

[Lillpapps]

how would it not be if the add doesn't live long enough?

If an add spawns every 20-30 seconds and dies in about 10-12 seconds, how woulds stacking the bleed not be a dps increase? If you only throw one you'd be wasting potential damage.

That scenario doesn't have anything to do with what you quoted. And it's more about hitting more targets with tg not about stacking the bleed. If adds would live 20 seconds and you wouldn't stack the bleeds you would still do the same amount of damage. The amount of dmg you do with the bleed is based on the cooldown on tg and how many targets you hit and if the bleed runs its full duration. Stacking or not does not increase damage on it's own.
Stacking the bleed is not what increases your damage in your scenario. It's the use of two tg where bloodlet would tick it's full duration on multiple targets.

[Deleted]

And your point is? You still haven't explained how stacking the TGs is supposed to be an overall damage increase, which is what you seemed to be suggesting the post I quoted, it may be burstier, but it does not in any way shape or form increase the total damage per TG over using them one at a time.

what you have said makes no sense....

one throw glaive does X initial damage .... PLUS over the next 10 seconds it will do Bloodlet damage which is 200% of initial throw glaive damage.

ok thats for ONE THROW GLAIVE.

now you use 2 charges one after eachother.

please read carefully so i do not have to repeat again.

1) 1st throw glaive will also start the 1st bloodlet
2) 2nd throw glaive does not make 2 bloodlets, it will REFRESH THE DURATION OF THE FIRST BLOODLET. THE DAMAGE THAT WAS GOING TO BE DONE BY THE FIRST BLOODLET IS NOT GONE, THE DAMAGE THE 1ST BLOODLET WOULD OF DONE IS NOW !!ADDED!! TO THE SECOND BLOODLET.

That is now 1 bloodlet on target that do 200% of each TG used damage.

it is pretty obvious that a 10 second Dot for 200% damage and a 10 second DoT for 400% are going to be different damage.

with legendary wrist which increases TG damage by 50% PER richochet, the damage possibility for 2 and 3 targets is massively increased. it is very obvious.


so please ask a proper question.

[Lillpapps]

what you have said makes no sense....

one throw glaive does X initial damage .... PLUS over the next 10 seconds it will do Bloodlet damage which is 200% of initial throw glaive damage.

ok thats for ONE THROW GLAIVE.

now you use 2 charges one after eachother.

please read carefully so i do not have to repeat again.

1) 1st throw glaive will also start the 1st bloodlet
2) 2nd throw glaive does not make 2 bloodlets, it will REFRESH THE DURATION OF THE FIRST BLOODLET. THE DAMAGE THAT WAS GOING TO BE DONE BY THE FIRST BLOODLET IS NOT GONE, THE DAMAGE THE 1ST BLOODLET WOULD OF DONE IS NOW !!ADDED!! TO THE SECOND BLOODLET.

That is now 1 bloodlet on target that do 200% of each TG used damage.

it is pretty obvious that a 10 second Dot for 200% damage and a 10 second DoT for 400% are going to be different damage.

with legendary wrist which increases TG damage by 50% PER richochet, the damage possibility for 2 and 3 targets is massively increased. it is very obvious.


so please ask a proper question.

This is not how it works.................. Only the remaining bloodlet damage from the 1st throw glaive gets added to the second. If it has already ticked for x damage then that damage won't be transfered to the second one.

[Deleted]

This is not how it works.................. Only the remaining bloodlet damage from the 1st throw glaive gets added to the second.

so you mean the remaining damage from the 1st bloodlet gets added to the second bloodlet?

so if theres 100k remaining on 1st bloodlet, it gets added so the 2nd bloodlet now does an extra 100k in the 10 seconds. yes that is what i said.

[Lillpapps]

so you mean the remaining damage from the 1st bloodlet gets added to the second bloodlet?

so if theres 100k remaining on 1st bloodlet, it gets added so the 2nd bloodlet now does an extra 100k in the 10 seconds. yes that is what i said.

Which means the bleed doesn't get an increase in damage from the fact that it is stacked. MotG gives you 1 extra use of TG in a whole fight (+ freedom to use it during recharge without losing time). It will give you 1 extra Bloodlet for the whole fight. Stacking the bleed doesn't matter in any way shape or form to increase your overall damage. It is all tied to the amount of TG's you have used. Someone who uses 15 TG's in a fight but never stacking them will do the exact same damage as someone who uses 15 TG's but are stacking them.

[Deleted]

Which means the bleed doesn't get an increase in damage from the fact that it is stacked. MotG gives you 1 extra use of TG in a whole fight (+ freedom to use it during recharge without losing time). It will give you 1 extra Bloodlet for the whole fight. Stacking the bleed doesn't matter in any way shape or form to increase your overall damage. It is all tied to the amount of TG's you have used. Someone who uses 15 TG's in a fight but never stacking them will do the exact same damage as someone who uses 15 TG's but are stacking them.

I swear to god I am almost fucking done with you. I freaking mention 10 to 12 seconds exactly because I KNOW THAT IT IS NOT A DPS INCREASE IF THE ADD LIVES JESUS CHRIST.

I'm aware that if it's on a SINGLE TARGET where the target lives for, lets say 4 minutes that you could use TG on a target twice in a row and do about

100k + 100k dps on the target followed by having a bleed that ticks for 400k over 10 sec thanks to bloodlet & Motg
followed by 20 seconds of waiting for throw glaive stacks to reach two again.

Even without Motg you'd be able to keep up a constant bleed on the target. Throw glaive doesn't recharge faster with haste as far as I know or anything else. So having 2 charges only makes your dps burstier on single targets that live long, I know. You COULD perhaps time it with certain buffs or trinket procs to snapshot in a much stronger bleed with 2 charges of TG.

But if the add lives for about only 10-12 seconds and spawns every 20-30 seconds ( aka typical add-spawns-in-intervals-nuke-it-down-now situations) THEN IT IS A DPS INCREASE as you'd be able to take advantage of ALWAYS having a bursty bleed up.

God this would be so much easier if I had damn beta and could just test things out. Not being able to test anything is such a pain and of course I still don't have beta while everyone and their grandmothers do ._.

don't bother, hes just trolling.

[Lillpapps]

don't bother, hes just trolling.

no I'm not, you are just not the brightest druid on the planet.
Example one stacking bloodlet:
100+100+200+200+100+100+200+200=1200
Example two not stacking bloodlet:
100+200+100+200+100+200+100+200=1200
Example three motg:
100+100+200+200+100+200+100+200=1200

Stacking bloodlet is not the source of damage increase.

[Deleted]

no I'm not, you are just not the brightest druid on the planet.
Example one stacking bloodlet:
100+100+200+200+100+100+200+200=1200
Example two not stacking bloodlet:
100+200+100+200+100+200+100+200=1200
Example three motg:
100+100+200+200+100+200+100+200=1200

Stacking bloodlet is not the source of damage increase.

i'll bite one last time. that math is crazily wrong. /discussion

[Lillpapps]

i'll bite one last time. that math is crazily wrong. /discussion

It's not but okay.

[Deleted]

it is pretty obvious that a 10 second Dot for 200% damage and a 10 second DoT for 400% are going to be different damage.
<snip>
so please ask a proper question.

Are you claiming that stacking the dot increases the overall damage done, that is, the damage per TG cast will be increased if you cast it while the dot is already up?

[Deleted]

Hey guys,

I've not been able to find the exact definition of the momentum spec. I've been running my own iteration on beta, CC, prep, FB, SR, Momentum, DR and Demonic.
I haven't been able to find the exact build or rotation, forgive my not reading all 144 pages. Could anyone tell me how our build and rotation works?

So far, it's just VR and FB back in on CD, otherwise build fury and spend it when above 60, while popping FotI and EB on CD. (Also, am I right in thinking I should cancel EB to use more Annihilates during demon form?).

Thanks for any help guys.