Mafia #72: Heads of State. Game Thread

[dupti]

Kryllian, who do you think Crackle checked n1?

[Danner]

@Danner, ok I'm feeling unedumacated here. Can you remind me what a Miller and JOAT are/do? Or more specifically why you don't think a Miller matters very much.

Certainly!

Millers are Vanilla Townies that, when investigated, appears as guilty to cops despite not actually being scum. The opposite of a godfather, so to speak. Sometimes they are aware of this, other times they believe themselves to be a simple VT. If they are aware, it's usually a not a terrible idea to claim immediately on day 1. Typically this means you will be lynched though, so if you can ensure you are killed before the endgame that's better. The absolute disaster scenario is if you end up being investigated late-game by a cop, and you're at LyLo (lynch the right person, or lose).

The first time I was a cop (game 29-33 or so?) I avoided claiming almost the entire game, because my investigation targets kept dying on me. When I eventually claimed on D7 or so, I investigated Xanjori and got a guilty. He turned out to be a miller, causing us to lose the game. He wasn't aware, so it was not really his fault; but imagine the pain if he had known O.o
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller

JOAT, aka Jack of All Trades, is a role that can do a little bit of everything. He usually get an investigate ability, a track ability, a doctor ability, and a night kill. But at the same time, there is usually something holding those abilities back, preventing them to be as good as a pure cop, tracker, doctor or vigilante. I've seen versions of the role where the JOAT only get a single use of each ability. I've seen versions where the JOAT has to use all four abilities before he can re-use any. I've seen versions where the JOAT cannot use the same ability twice in a row.

Generally the JOAT acts as a backup, filling in the job of whatever TPR the town accidentally loses early. In our case, a JOAT should for example typically have performed the protection of our claimed cop last night, seeing as the Jailkeeper (who normally would have done that on even nights after a cop claim) died on N1.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?...-of-all-trades

I believe we have a miller because of how the rolecard was worded, explicitly stating that a not guilty result is *generally* town. That's somewhat unnecessary unless there exists a role that can give a false guilty.

I am not so sure we have a JOAT. But leaving the option open.

[listo95]

Okay dupti. Try to say how I am town? Would you accept wifom reasons?

First, why would I try to metagame the way the leaders are placed as mafia if that could hurt some claiming? I would gain nothing and would possibily hurt my team because I believe/d the mafia are full of leaders who are seen as good.
Second, Do you not know how I play mafia? Me not having a vote against Allowyn and being late on Catta can be considered bussing or trying to divert the lynch except you know... I love bussing. Also I physically couldn't divert a train that was non-existant with my Shiro vote.

Yes I understand I'm not the most townie player but I hardly ever am as town. I honestly have no other idea how I could defend myself considring I really despise my character with a passion.

[Virothe]

Virothe - The lists could be fluff and a mask. Neutral/Scum lean
In fact after perusing the posts of virothe and xanjori....

Vote Virothe.

Why? Because after reading them all I felt like the only contribution they are trying to provide is the lists... That don't really do much of anything. Moving him to Probable Scum.

Well you know, sept the fact I was vocal against following cru, And tried to help push on Kryll. That is contribution, and I've used my list to help get Allowynn lynched, Which again is contribution.

I'm not going to sit here and debate about the reality of a role I don't think is legitimate for 40+ posts just because people don't want to believe there could possibly be a jester role. All that is and all that does is artificially increases your post count. I think my actions speak enough for me that adding to the mess.

But I mean then there's you, you said yesterday you wondered if you would reach -250+ for negative contribution and as we've seen with both allow and blood scum this game seem to enjoy not adding anything to the game so give me a reason why you shouldn't be a prime target for today.

[Danner]

You say town don't like? BS. VT's lie all the time pretending to be TPR to try and bait a night kill. So why is the fact that I tried to hide my true role from scum that shocking?

The motive, the ONLY motive, for hiding your role as a doctor is to AVOID being killed.
You first claimed something that, short of the real cop, would be a pretty good target.

What was the goal with that claim. Avoid being killed?
Your motive for doing that claim doesn't make sense as a doctor.

[dupti]

Okay dupti. Try to say how I am town? Would you accept wifom reasons?

First, why would I try to metagame the way the leaders are placed as mafia if that could hurt some claiming? I would gain nothing and would possibily hurt my team because I believe/d the mafia are full of leaders who are seen as good.
Second, Do you not know how I play mafia? Me not having a vote against Allowyn and being late on Catta can be considered bussing or trying to divert the lynch except you know... I love bussing. Also I physically couldn't divert a train that was non-existant with my Shiro vote.

Yes I understand I'm not the most townie player but I hardly ever am as town. I honestly have no other idea how I could defend myself considring I really despise my character with a passion.

While I'm sure you understand that this doesn't really mean much, I actually kind of like your answer.

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To be fair the whole "VT's lie all the time pretending to be TPR" is bullshit. Unless they straight up claim "hey im a tpr" as a vt, they're not actually lying.

[Kryllian]

I was on the verge of being lynched or being proposed as the person Cruelle took with him when he was lynched back when so many people believed his pumpkin laser claim.

If I had claimed VT you would have proceeded with the lynch since we have some room for a mislynch after two scum lynches. I felt my fake claim would get the lynch train to back off and keep me off a night kill another night or two since it's not as important for scum as a cop/doc/etc. If I was upfront with my doc role I would have pretty much said "Hey Scum come Kill Me!"

[dupti]

Kryllian, who do you think Crackle checked n1?

Please answer this.

[Kryllian]

Based of Crackles comment "it should be obvious" probably Danner. But right now he's pissing me off so I'm not feeling bad about voting him at the moment.

[Danner]

@Kryllian:

I believe you are indeed annoyed. I'm not convinced it is due to you thinking you are framed.

If I was upfront with my doc role I would have pretty much said "Hey Scum come Kill Me!"

Your first fake claim did that already.

Here's what actual-town-doctor Kryllian should have been thinking

- I cannot save Crackleslap again tonight, because I saved him on N2.
- The only person I really have a reason to protect on N3 is myself.

- The mafia killing me tonight over Crackleslap would be AWESOME, we'll both live, and I can protect Crackleslap again tomorrow night!
- That's two more investigations from an outed cop, in an environment where the Jailkeeper is already dead.
- But I really really cannot afford to be lynched for that to happen.

- If the cop dies, there is no reason to keep particularly hidden. My mission is over.
- If I do claim doctor, people will not lynch me.
- Thus there is no real reason to not claim to be the doctor in my position.

The moment you lied, your credibility is shot to pieces. I will offer you no faith until I get the motive of fakeclaiming in your position to fit.
It does not fit. What went through your head?

In particular, what isn't mentioned in #767 is the eventuality "had I claimed doctor" - then what?

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Also, sorry, it's late. I must head to bed. Back in 8-ish hours.

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Basically I'm saying - as the doctor, you should have known it shouldn't be a problem if you were the target of a kill that night.
For you, that would be awesome if it happened. Because you are a doctor.

Or at least claim to be one.

Really heading to bed now

[shirokitsune]

Well you know, sept the fact I was vocal against following cru, And tried to help push on Kryll. That is contribution, and I've used my list to help get Allowynn lynched, Which again is contribution.

I'm not going to sit here and debate about the reality of a role I don't think is legitimate for 40+ posts just because people don't want to believe there could possibly be a jester role. All that is and all that does is artificially increases your post count. I think my actions speak enough for me that adding to the mess.

But I mean then there's you, you said yesterday you wondered if you would reach -250+ for negative contribution and as we've seen with both allow and blood scum this game seem to enjoy not adding anything to the game so give me a reason why you shouldn't be a prime target for today.

*shrug* If you want to vote me, go for it. I stand by that all you'll get is a town mislynch with no added value. And if I keep scoring negative on your list, I think that's going to tell me something too. At least I feel like I am trying to provide contribution and reasoning behind my actions. I don't think just sitting back and pointing at a lurker and saying "I provided contribution" is not really that helpful...

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Correction "I don't think just sitting back and pointing at a lurker and saying "I provided contribution" is not really that helpful..."
Should read "I don't think just sitting back and pointing at a lurker and saying "I provided contribution" is really that helpful..."

Didn't catch that typo until after the 10 min window.

[Anakso]

Vote: Kryll

Think it's all been said already but not buying his claim, doesn't make sense to me and this:

Welcome Satsu.
I'm pretty sure everyone has checked in at this point and no one has counterclaimed.

Seems more like a cry to be counter claimed than anything because with your current situation I don't really see a reason a doc would counter claim you, they'd just be outing them selves for no reason.

[Virothe]

And if I keep scoring negative on your list, I think that's going to tell me something too.

"Your lists don't add contribution, But if you keep scoring me low It says something about you!"

So.... Ya.... You're just an idiot, I gotcha. You're pushing me because you've run out of anything else to push on and you don't get what the deffinition of either "contribution" Or "Irony" is.

Because you declaring that my lists are not contribution while using them to extrapolate an opinion thus pointing out that my lists are in fact ,contribution, is ironic.

[Marack]

@Kryllian Claim seems a little forced. Not to mention the lie to keep yourself out of the light, didnt really do much but draw the unwanted attention youve garnered today. I can kinda see your point as to cast some doubt on the scum to keep you alive, but you knew it would cause you issues in the long run.
@SatsuBL Have you gone through the thread? Whats your take on everyone? Do you have any ideas to push today?

[SatsuBL]

Yes I followed the thread. I didn't keep any notes, but I have a an image in my head about what happened so far and some reads.

I think there are probably two scum in between Shirokitsune/Dethmourne/Kryllian and Anakso. I would say Dupti/Graeham/Reticence and Xanjori are town. Danner is likely town too.
I am not a big fan of Kryllian lynch today, even if he was scummy I would keep a doc claim for now. I am not that good to lead trains but if one forms on my other scum candidates I will gladly join.

Can I get some of your reads Marack? Two top town and two top scum will do.

[Anakso]

You think there is a 50/50 chance Kryll is scum but don't like the lynch? I get the idea of keeping the doc claim alive, but in this case I just don't see the point given his absurd first claim and lack of reasoning for it.

[SatsuBL]

I would say 60/40 that he is scum even, but so are the others I mentioned. His play was scummy and his previous claims were awful, but his doc claim is possible. I don't want his lynch "today". There is time, town seens to be far ahead. His role and aligment will clarify itself in a day or two or maybe even tonight.

[Danner]

@SatsuBL:
I will unvote Kryllian for being the only doc claim about, IF he satisfies my questions. Which are by nature very very hard at his position. I'm positively awaiting that clarification of thought process. Because right now, a genuine doc thought process seems contradictory to his statements to me.

Problem is, I still don't actually trust him one bit. Confirmed liar etc. If Kryllian really is the doc, any scum could counterclaim him in the future, and I'd probably lynch Kryllian over said scum.

--

As for Marack, I lean scum. Weakly, but scum nonetheless.

I really have no major qualms with Marack in the first half of this game (counting at current point in time). His post #213 was pretty good even. I buy the excuse for not voting Catta ("Jynx hammered before I could get to it"), but that's not a scum nor townsign at such a late point in the train. His hesitation to vote Catta in the first place is against him. He's consistently going after Jynx, which shows purpose rather than votes of opportunity. This is good. He's also been calling out people absconding. His callout to Anakso I particularly liked.

The biggest problem I see is the trust list in #474. Not only did it put Allowyn in the biggest trust position, for what was flimsy reasons ("gut feel"), it just looks genuinely bad. Furthermore, it reads Reticence as Neutral. Ret has consistently been my strongest town read - so I'm not really sure what to feel about that difference. My best read of the situation is that Marack is scum trying to distance himself from his teammate Reticence. However; that read is inconsistent with my own read on Reticence.Also, compare that reticence distancing to the not-at-all distancing from Allowyn, and I have no real idea what is going on. It's possible this is just a mistake in consistency? Something feels off, and since I cannot quite explain what it's making me uneasy.

Now, the biggest problem is really that the list added Jynx as the biggest distrust - this is consistent with Marack's previous play. But It added Blood Fox, who had already by then claimed Jynx was town, in the trust position. Theories of Masons were blooming. But this is a pretty major inconsistency. No matter how I twist it, this doesn't add up. A trust list with any thought behind it should have considered that difference. That's my main reason for reading Marack as scum at this point.

In Marack's favour, he did call out Blood Fox on that read several times, and it seems to me Blood Fox dropped several spots on the list by the end of D3 ... nonetheless, this didn't sit well with me. In Marack's favour, it seems his posts have genuinely held a theme of investigations, and I can -almost- follow his trail of thought as they come; which does suggest town. If not for that inconsistency with Blood Fox and Jynx, the verdict would have been a townread actually.

It's hard to read new players though. Nothing to compare against!

[Xanjori]

Oh, jester and a traitor, not really a standard game you dirty liar

Also just to disagree a bit, these are very much roles from standard games. We've just not had a "standard" game on MMO-C in a long long time. Now the thing with the Jester is that oin certain games the Jester will kill someone and take them out, usually someone that voted on them. Now certain members of this game will know this and therefore I have reason to believe that scum will have avoided the Cruelle train yesterday, or at least some, to minimise the risk of getting hit by the haunt. (I don't actually know if this Jester did haunt and kill anyone, I'm talking about how most people would view the role based on name alone.)

Therefore I have a list of 4 people that are alive (I double checked this time) that did not vote on Cruelle.


Dupti, Kryllian, Reticence, Shiro.

Now two of these people surprise me greatly. @Kryllian you were at a risk of being lynched yesterday, but you did not vote on the other leading train, why?

@shirokitsune your vote came on Kryll and then you just kinda disappeared.

Now despite those two, I think Reticence is a pretty clear one here. Reticence knows what he is doing, he would probably be aware that a Jester lynch could come with a haunting. He also claimed

If he's a Jester, then honestly whatever. We're in a good position, and it's better to get him out of the way now than to have to deal with him later.

but then never voted on Cruelle.

For the rest, I normally expect Reticence to be a very vocal townie that generally pushes hard and raises a fair amount of suspicion around people. This is one of those games again where I feel he is happier to apply minimal pressure and try and talk to people about what reads they have, rather than trying to influence people.

FoS: Reticence

I may come back and vote him soon, but I want to read more today about people pushing Kryll.

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Virothe was the first vote on Allowyn though. Do you think he was bussing?

Yes, I think he happily would bus a team mate, especially one that is so inactive.

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You say town don't like? BS. VT's lie all the time pretending to be TPR to try and bait a night kill. So why is the fact that I tried to hide my true role from scum that shocking?]

Yeah and this is bad and one reason we keep losing games. People over-complicate shit, TPRs end up wasting investigations or shit on VTs or we get random counter-claims because someone thinks theyve caught a scum in a lie. VT should never come out early and be like "Yo Im VT." They should try create pressure and worry scum, they can be ambigious, but should never flat out lie and cause town confusion. Remember that town have no information going into this game, while scum have some at least. This is why lies are far more likely to hurt town, you can't put a puzzle together if half the bits paint themselves random colours.

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The first time I was a cop (game 29-33 or so?) I avoided claiming almost the entire game, because my investigation targets kept dying on me. When I eventually claimed on D7 or so, I investigated Xanjori and got a guilty. He turned out to be a miller, causing us to lose the game. He wasn't aware, so it was not really his fault; but imagine the pain if he had known O.o .

We do not forget, we do not forgive.

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Is anyone else playing? So hard to get my post count up like this. ;..;

[Graeham]

@Graeham, pls gib scumreads

Right, to answer this:

- Kryllian: Like I said yesterday I wasn't opposed to the idea of voting on him. Cruelle, however, was my priority as she was either a Jester or some weird role that would stand to change the perceived layout of the game. I believed it more likely to be the former and knew that Cruelle would do everything possible to get lynched/cause chaos if left alive. Or just be dead weight. He seems to have only avoided being lynched due to the unusual situation with Cruelle.

- Marack: A slight scum read due to his 'trust' of Allowyn earlier on. To his credit he addressed this but it's still a potential lead to pursue at a later date I think.

- Reticence: I'd like him to contribute more. He may be busy but he's been fairly...I don't really know how to describe it. He seemed much more engaged earlier on and more guarded/quiet the more the game has gone on.

- Anakso: Honestly the main reason for this is due to Anakso's habit of being very quiet throughout a game and being able to go by unscathed and largely unchallenged...which allowed her to win as a serial killer not long ago.

- Listo: Same reasoning as above, really. Often claims to 'not be very good at reads'.

For now, though:

Vote: Kryllian