Are you proud of your country?

[Shadowferal]

Historically America has never been involved in any of the numerous conflicts that have beset the UK since WWI. It only joined in WWII after the Battle of Britain was over. You have dragged my nation into multiple wars, which you have lost despite enormous numerical, technological and financial resources and put everyone in danger in the process.

What, specifically, am I supposed to be grateful for? Do you actually even know? Are you capable of constructing an argument even or do you just murmur these sub-intellectual generalities in the absence of any detail?

Sounds like you more a problem with your own leadership. After all, the special relationship between the US and the UK is a two-way street. And that's never going away because not many on your side of the pond wants it to go away.

[Tennis]

What do you guys think ?

[Deleted]

Nationality is artificial. A tool for and created by propaganda. In social science it works the same like househoulds/family but on a scale no human could grasp. In "Small is beautiful" the number we can indeed process as community is ~75-150.

[Shadowferal]

I like patriotism.
I don't like nationalism.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

You have never protected any one.

The only nation that is threatening my country is the one created in the power vacuum that followed the US invasion of Iraq.

Historically America has never been involved in any of the numerous conflicts that have beset the UK since WWI. It only joined in WWII after the Battle of Britain was over. You have dragged my nation into multiple wars, which you have lost despite enormous numerical, technological and financial resources and put everyone in danger in the process.

What, specifically, am I supposed to be grateful for? Do you actually even know? Are you capable of constructing an argument even or do you just murmur these sub-intellectual generalities in the absence of any detail?

Seeing as you've done nothing but spew hyperbole and re-assert your initial claim, I'm going to go ahead and not consider you an authority on constructing a logical argument.

As for Western Europe, in the aftermath of WWII it was rebuilt by American investment and secured by American power. I'm a big fan of the UK and have a great deal of respect for her fighting men, but let's be honest here. It wasn't fear of the UK that kept the Russians at bay and it wasn't the UK that kept the shipping lanes secure to establish worldwide trade. The British Empire held that position in the 19th Century to be sure, but that role was ceded to the United States in the last half of the 20th Century and the 21st.

All of this is irrelevant however. It does not matter who it was that created the security and prosperity enjoyed by Western Europe. It could have been the French for crying out loud. All that matters is you acknowledge the basic fact that whomever it would have been, would have had to have been powerful to make it so. Power comes from the ability to control people and resources. That control comes from the threat and application of violence. It does not come from self-righteous weenies whining on the internet about their moral superiority.

[Berengil]

Seeing as you've done nothing but spew hyperbole and re-assert your initial claim, I'm going to go ahead and not consider you an authority on constructing a logical argument.

As for Western Europe, in the aftermath of WWII it was rebuilt by American investment and secured by American power. I'm a big fan of the UK and have a great deal of respect for her fighting men, but let's be honest here. It wasn't fear of the UK that kept the Russians at bay and it wasn't the UK that kept the shipping lanes secure to establish worldwide trade. The British Empire held that position in the 19th Century to be sure, but that role was ceded to the United States in the last half of the 20th Century and the 21st.

All of this is irrelevant however. It does not matter who it was that created the security and prosperity enjoyed by Western Europe. It could have been the French for crying out loud. All that matters is you acknowledge the basic fact that whomever it would have been, would have had to have been powerful to make it so. Power comes from the ability to control people and resources. That control comes from the threat and application of violence. It does not come from self-righteous weenies whining on the internet about their moral superiority.

As you know, 10th, you and I are pretty far apart on social/cultural issues, if you recall our back-and-forth in that other thread about families/kids/etc.

I'm pretty liberal on gay rights, the social safety net, immigration, and lots of other things. But when it comes to the military and national defense issues, I'm as hawkish as f.

As I've tried to tell lots of people many times in my life: the 71 years since the end of WW2 have been the most peaceful in human history. Not to mention also being the time of the greatest economic and technological expansion ever. Basically:

The Bretton Woods agreement is the Federation constitution, and the US Navy is the Starfleet that enforces it.

[Shadowferal]

When the UK went to war over the Falkland Islands, UK harriers were landing on US aircraft carriers...

[Deleted]

All of this is irrelevant however. It does not matter who it was that created the security and prosperity enjoyed by Western Europe. It could have been the French for crying out loud. All that matters is you acknowledge the basic fact that whomever it would have been, would have had to have been powerful to make it so. Power comes from the ability to control people and resources. That control comes from the threat and application of violence. It does not come from self-righteous weenies whining on the internet about their moral superiority.

You keep blathering on about how great violence is. If that were actually true the US would be a fourth-rate power after having its ass handed to it in two wars.

As for self-righteous please. You people never shut up about how fucking great you are. It gets really tiresome to listen to.

- - - Updated - - -

Sounds like you more a problem with your own leadership. After all, the special relationship between the US and the UK is a two-way street. And that's never going away because not many on your side of the pond wants it to go away.

There was a clear majority against war in Syria and you don't command much support here, much less anywhere else. The conservative political establishment supports the US but with much less force than it used to (it was ambivalent about Irq). It is really just Israel that is friendly to the US and they throw periodic hissy fits.

You like to think of yourself as the good guys. The US is very unpopular in the world and has been for a long time. The media keeps a lot of this stuff from you: you might want to have a look at some of the gallup polling on the subject, it is pretty disturbing.

- - - Updated - - -

When the UK went to war over the Falkland Islands, UK harriers were landing on US aircraft carriers...

So you sold us some military equipment. Gee thanks.

[Shadowferal]

There was a clear majority against war in Syria and you don't command much support here, much less anywhere else.

Good luck in your attempt to sell that.

You like to think of yourself as the good guys. The US is very unpopular in the world and has been for a long time.

It's not the world we speak of now is it.

The media keeps a lot of this stuff from you: you might want to have a look at some of the gallup polling on the subject, it is pretty disturbing.

The US/UK love jones is still strong; The two countries combined make up a huge percentage of world trade, a significant impact of the cultures of many other countries and territories, and are the largest economies and the most populous nodes of the Anglosphere, with a combined population of around 385 million in 2015. Together, they have given the English language a dominant role in many sectors of the modern world. In addition to the Special Relationship between the two countries, most British people perceive the U.S. positively, with the U.S. coming in the top three of polls consistently; according to a 2015 Gallup poll, 90% of Americans view Great Britain favorably.

You love us...you REALLY do!...*sniffs* And we love you right back! (Can I get a hug? )

So you sold us some military equipment. Gee thanks.

uh...no..(Were you too young to know about this?)

Anytime the UK has been involved in any conflict the US has always watched its back.
And the reverse has been the same.

[zeula]

I want to be proud of our country, but the longer I live in it....I am proud of many of the people that live here! But people are so hateful!

[Deleted]

Good luck in your attempt to sell that.

It's not the world we speak of now is it.

The US/UK love jones is still strong; [I]The two countries combined make up a huge percentage of world trade, a significant impact of the cultures of many other countries and territories, and are the largest economies and the most populous nodes of the Anglosphere, with a combined population of around 385 million in 2015. Together, they have given the English language a dominant role in many sectors of the modern world. In addition to the Special Relationship between the two countries, most British people perceive the U.S. positively, with the U.S. coming in the top three of polls consistently; according to a 2015 Gallup poll, 90% of Americans view Great Britain favorably.

Thats what the US media do when they want to portray the US in a good light.

People are not generally unfavourably disposed towards other people, anywhere, even in hostile countries. Foreign governments and military-industrial complexes are another matter. Of course British people are not racist towards the American people: that would be fucking stupid.

On 9/11 there were huge vigils in support of the American people all across Iran. This doesn't mean they approve of US imperialism.

[Deleted]

No, I'm not overtly 'proud' of my country of origin.

It's extremely nice to live in, the people are generally very intelligent and amenable to deal with, shit is safe and secure.. but I've never held any real pride in it. My grandparents harbor some nationalistic pride, but I'm pretty internationally minded altogether. I kinda feel like national pride is something for nations that actually put themselves out there proactively and taking risks.

[Independent voter]

Thats what the US media do when they want to portray the US in a good light.

People are not generally unfavourably disposed towards other people, anywhere, even in hostile countries. Foreign governments and military-industrial complexes are another matter. Of course British people are not racist towards the American people: that would be fucking stupid.

On 9/11 there were huge vigils in support of the American people all across Iran. This doesn't mean they approve of US imperialism.

Advanta has a real strong hatred of the US, don't know why. Maybe he's a Serb expat?

[Shadowferal]

Thats what the US media do when they want to portray the US in a good light.

Oh...you said check out "Gallup polling" and when I did...now your saying what? Wrong poll? Was there another Gallup you meant?

[Lord Berserker]

Why wouldn't I be?

English History provides role models we should aspire to and try to supercede.

The only people who don't feel pride for such things are fallow ingrates with a lack of pride in anything.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

You keep blathering on about how great violence is. If that were actually true the US would be a fourth-rate power after having its ass handed to it in two wars.

As for self-righteous please. You people never shut up about how fucking great you are. It gets really tiresome to listen to.

The reason we lost those wars is because we decided the moral cost killing every man woman and child in those countries, well within our capabilities, was not worth the gain we'd hoped to achieve. Deciding that a particular conflict was not worth the effort we were putting into it does not all of the sudden make the other side more powerful than we are. Was the US all of the sudden more powerful than the British Empire after the Revolution? Oh by the way, every nation that participated in those wars with us is equally culpable in the results, including yours.

Like I said before, intelligent discussions can be had about when and how to apply military power towards our geopolitical objectives, but that is not the conversation we are having. You made the claim that I, a soldier, and by extension a strong military in general are an unnecessary drain on a nation's resources. I replied that is idiotic in the most basic sense imaginable, which is true. Pacifists only exist where non-pacifists protect them. Otherwise they'd by wiped out by the neighboring tribe for their women and resources just as they have been for eons. Quit trying to migrate the subject away from your original claim to an argument you feel you have firmer footing on. We can discuss those things later, once we've finished up with this.

Lastly, when did I say I was great? I just said I was necessary. Try to understand the difference. To be fair I did imply that I am better than you, but believe me when I say there is a long distance between what I perceive as greatness, and you.

[Lord Berserker]

The reason we lost those wars is because we decided the moral cost killing every man woman and child in those countries, well within our capabilities, was not worth the gain we'd hoped to achieve. Deciding that a particular conflict was not worth the effort we were putting into it does not all of the sudden make the other side more powerful than we are. Was the US all of the sudden more powerful than the British Empire after the Revolution? Oh by the way, every nation that participated in those wars with us is equally culpable in the results, including yours.

Like I said before, intelligent discussions can be had about when and how to apply military power towards our geopolitical objectives, but that is not the conversation we are having. You made the claim that I, a soldier, and by extension a strong military in general are an unnecessary drain on a nation's resources. I replied that is idiotic in the most basic sense imaginable, which is true. Pacifists only exist where non-pacifists protect them. Otherwise they'd by wiped out by the neighboring tribe for their women and resources just as they have been for eons. Quit trying to migrate the subject away from your original claim to an argument you feel you have firmer footing on. We can discuss those things later, once we've finished up with this.

Lastly, when did I say I was great? I just said I was necessary. Try to understand the difference. To be fair I did imply that I am better than you, but believe me when I say there is a long distance between what I perceive as greatness, and you.

The last person I would talk to about the cost of war is a soldier. You can't seen the forest for all the trees.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Nope, I'm not.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

Advanta has a real strong hatred of the US, don't know why. Maybe he's a Serb expat?

It's called envy. One of its chief manifestations is for the person to try to present the qualities of the people or entities they envy as vice, and conversely their own inadequacies as virtue. It's a sad but rather common coping mechanism.

[Lord Berserker]

It's called envy. One of its chief manifestations is for the person to try to present the qualities of the people or entities they envy as vice, and conversely their own inadequacies as virtue. It's a sad but rather common coping mechanism.

I don't envy a single American.

A rich country with poor people is the most pathetic thing.