The voice of N'Zoth confirmed (Blackfathom Deeps)

[Tripzzz]

I didn't say they aren't related, though? I said they don't "have any significant connections", not that they are not related. These are two different things. A (to quote Xal'atath) "fragment, shadow, faintest of echoes" connection to the being itself isn't really significant. Is the connection between a human, and - for example - a strand of his hair, significant?

Also, the 2nd quote of yours, the

Isn't in correct. I and the one I replied to was talking about any direct indication of the Void Lords' roles *before* Chronicle. The connection between Dimensius and the Void Lords is only revealed by Xal'atath *after* Chronicle - before that, he is just a void lords without any known allegation, no more no less.

I hope you're joking. Hair contains your DNA. I hope you don't think DNA is insignificant.

[Qualia]

I hope you're joking. Hair contains your DNA. I hope you don't think DNA is insignificant.

They aren't in anyway significant when you look at them from a fantasy fiction perspective.

Dimensius' power isn't anywhere near a Void Lord - presumably due to the "echoes" thing Xal'atath said, and if Dimensius' power is actually close enough to be significant to a Void Lord then I'd say the Void Lords' power would be even lower than we expected. Killing him doesn't weaken the Void Lord whatsoever (at least, no indication of that being the case) and it clearly isn't anywhere close to Void Lords themselves (seeing that it had no problem manifesting permanently). Saying that Dimensius has significant connection to the Void Lords is like saying a mirror image cast by a mage has significant connection to the caster (actually, the image would have more significant connection to its caster than Dimensius to the Void Lords - from a fantasy fiction perspective - as it can give us more information about the caster than "well, they are void beings").

Additionally, even if we are to use science perspective, only hair root actually contains DNA - the other parts don't. Broken hair doesn't contain any significant DNA whatsoever.

[Thrif]

...if you're really suggesting Hearthstone as a source for WoW's future lore, then I guess we have paladin Ragnaros to look forward to, right?

Bleeding hell.

What I'm suggesting is that Blizzard is a clever company that could possibly use one of their franchises to foreshadow events in another to build recognition and congruity.

B) But what Bliz says about the warcraft universe is lore. Blizz says so is as much fact as you can get. Arguing against Blizzard about Warcraft lore, is the same as arguing against J.K Rowling with Harry Potter universe lore or Tolkein in regards to lore of Middle Earth.

Their universe, their rules. Accept what they say or be wrong.

[nnelson54]

That has nothing what so ever to do with anything anyone is talking about. There's a significant difference between Blizzard putting the wrong NPC in during an early beta build and someone pointing it out and you putting your fingers in your ears and yelling, "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUUU" because you like your headcannon better than the current lore that Blizzard has stated.

[Kallisto]

What I'm suggesting is that Blizzard is a clever company that could possibly use one of their franchises to foreshadow events in another to build recognition and congruity.

They derped in beta and it was fixed. If it had hit live you might have had a point. But the statement still holds. Arguing against what Blizzard says is lore in Warcraft is arguing against J.K Rowling for Harry Potter and Tolkein for Middle Earth. You're essentially telling those that own the world's "You're wrong I'm right."

[Thrif]

That has nothing what so ever to do with anything anyone is talking about. There's a significant difference between Blizzard putting the wrong NPC in during an early beta build and someone pointing it out and you putting your fingers in your ears and yelling, "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUUU" because you like your headcannon better than the current lore that Blizzard has stated.

They derped in beta and it was fixed. If it had hit live you might have had a point. But the statement still holds. Arguing against what Blizzard says is lore in Warcraft is arguing against J.K Rowling for Harry Potter and Tolkein for Middle Earth. You're essentially telling those that own the world's "You're wrong I'm right."

Eh no, I've never once stated that they aren't dead or that I know better than Blizzard. All I did was point out that Blizzard is pretty bad at keeping track of lore and very fickle with it in general. And if you're using "Blizzard said so" as an arguement you should portray for what it is and not the unbreakable unfallible word of a flawless divine being.

[skulmar]

A) Hearthstone is a game within a game. Any decks or so called lore views is how people within the universe might think things are.

B) But what Bliz says about the warcraft universe is lore. Blizz says so is as much fact as you can get. Arguing against Blizzard about Warcraft lore, is the same as arguing against J.K Rowling with Harry Potter universe lore or Tolkein in regards to lore of Middle Earth.

Their universe, their rules. Accept what they say or be wrong.

Its interesting that the WoW community puts so much stake in "word of god," declaring it official even if it directly contradicts established lore.

Other groups I am a part of cling to "death of the author," and insist that author statements mean nothing and that only the text matters, even in the case of ambigous or obvioulsy erroneous texts with readilly available author clarification.

Personally I think both arguments have merit, but ultimately it is fiction and there is no "objective truth," paeticularly when you have an IP where they are not afraid to retcon established lore or declare it non-canon anytime it becomes even slightly inconvenient.

[Deleted]

Im sure the OGs we killed wont show up again in the game but im yet to see blizzards confirmation that theyre dead.

Before this said confirmation, old gods were said to be huge and what we faced in the raids were merely a part of their body.


Like, Amanthul had to rip Y'shaarj and drop him from space to kill it and even then we got the Sha's problem. A bunch of heros poking an old gods penis is rly going to kill it?

[Qualia]

Its interesting that the WoW community puts so much stake in "word of god," declaring it official even if it directly contradicts established lore.

Other groups I am a part of cling to "death of the author," and insist that author statements mean nothing and that only the text matters, even in the case of ambigous or obvioulsy erroneous texts with readilly available author clarification.

Personally I think both arguments have merit, but ultimately it is fiction and there is no "objective truth," paeticularly when you have an IP where they are not afraid to retcon established lore or declare it non-canon anytime it becomes even slightly inconvenient.

In *any* community, not just WoW or Blizzard-related franchises, Word of God is considered an official source. By definition, the latest released information from an official source is considered canon and override previous canons (unless refuted later by another official source). Just being a statement from Blizzard, or a piece of established lore, doesn't make it automatically canon. It need to be the one released most recently. Thus, being a part of the established lore doesn't matter if Blizzard later said something else contradicting to it. What is released last about the matter, especially with little to no room being misinformation, is canon, and thus the truth *until it is changed*. Arguing against it is just ridiculous.

I regards to the "Death of the author" trope: Keep in mind that it was about interpretation and the author's intentions. It, however, was not about whether something is canon or not. "There is no canon" is a misinterpretation of the trope. It is basically that there are many interpretations, and the author's original intention might not be the only valid one. However, being a valid interpretation does NOT make it canonical truth if it contradicts what the author said.

For example, let's use an Old God related story - we get the bits about C'Thun stalemated a Titan, and both fell in Silithus. One can interpret it as is - C'Thun fought a Titan to a draw. Another can interpret it as mere lies recorded by Prophet Skeram, an Old God's follower. Maybe there are other interpretations, I just can't think of one for now. With Chronicle, Blizzard made the later interpretation (that it was likely just incorrect information) out to be canon. Yet, it doesn't make the first interpretation invalid, just non-canon. You can claim that the first interpretation is a valid one, just keep in mind that is isn't canon.
Another example would be the pre-Cataclysm events - there are people who argued that it was the Old Gods' deaths started those, and others claimed that Deathwing's rampage in the Elemental Plane crossed the border to affect Azeroth. Both have their own merits and are as valid as each other, but there is only one canonical truth - what Blizzard said (well, they haven't said anything in detail in regard to this matter, though).

All in all, "death of the author" is more about the validity of interpretations. One can use it to argue whether a bit of information can be interpretation as this or that, but it has little to do with whether an interpretation is canon or not.

[Kallisto]

Im sure the OGs we killed wont show up again in the game but im yet to see blizzards confirmation that theyre dead.

Yes they have, they even said it at Blizzcon itself when basically asked.

https://youtu.be/mJ0Z9xfFGuI?t=3m27s

There the time stamp for it to so you don't need to search

- - - Updated - - -

Other groups I am a part of cling to "death of the author," and insist that author statements mean nothing and that only the text matters, even in the case of ambigous or obvioulsy erroneous texts with readilly available author clarification.

Ah yes death of the author. A trope created just so people can have their fanon and cry when called out by those who created the fictional universes.

Sorry people who follow that are borderline crazy.

[Deleted]

Yes they have, they even said it at Blizzcon itself when basically asked.

https://youtu.be/mJ0Z9xfFGuI?t=3m27s

There the time stamp for it to so you don't need to search

Thats not a confirmation at all, The cataclysm occured because of Deathwing everyone knows that, not because the other old gods ''died''.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Cataclysm_(event)

There the source so you dont need to search

[Qualia]

Thats not a confirmation at all, The cataclysm occured because of Deathwing everyone knows that, not because the other old gods ''died''.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Cataclysm_(event)

There the source so you dont need to search

This is getting repetitive, like the "Old Gods don't die" matter. Did you miss all the post explaining about the Cataclysm by chance?

First of all, Wowpedia is not an official source. What is written in Wowpedia can be changed by anyone, and are as reliable as my words, or yours. Wowpedia articles can serve as great reference sources, but can't go against what Blizzard said. They wouldn't serve as a reliable source for discussion - it's better to give links to Blizzard's article or interview clips / in-game quest.

Secondly, Deathwing is the main actor of the Cataclysm. However, it was stated nowhere that he was the ONLY cause of the Cataclysm. Everyone who followed the in game lore and outside of game statements from Blizzard know that. There were pre-release events that happened while Deathwing were still all the way in Deepholm, in another dimension together. Those might or might not be related to Deathwing.
That interview is a confirmation. If you think that clip wasn't one, kindly tell me - what's your take of it? Someone asked "There is that theory that it'd be doomsday if the Old Gods are dealt with, but why haven't we seen any result even after two down?", Metzen & Afrasiabi answered "Have you played any Cataclysm? Where the world blows up? Because of the Old Gods". The guy then further asked "Because of the Old Gods???" and got a "Right!" as an answer. You must have some really wild interpretations seeing that you are claiming Blizzard answer had nothing to do with the question, even after being double checked.

[procne]

This is getting repetitive, like the "Old Gods don't die" matter. Did you miss all the post explaining about the Cataclysm by chance?

First of all, Wowpedia is not an official source. What is written in Wowpedia can be changed by anyone, and are as reliable as my words, or yours. Wowpedia articles can serve as great reference sources, but can't go against what Blizzard said. They wouldn't serve as a reliable source for discussion - it's better to give links to Blizzard's article or interview clips / in-game quest.

Secondly, Deathwing is the main actor of the Cataclysm. However, it was stated nowhere that he was the ONLY cause of the Cataclysm. Everyone who followed the in game lore and outside of game statements from Blizzard know that. There were pre-release events that happened while Deathwing were still all the way in Deepholm, in another dimension together. Those might or might not be related to Deathwing.
That interview is a confirmation. If you think that clip wasn't one, kindly tell me - what's your take of it? Someone asked "There is that theory that it'd be doomsday if the Old Gods are dealt with, but why haven't we seen any result even after two down?", Metzen & Afrasiabi answered "Have you played any Cataclysm? Where the world blows up? Because of the Old Gods". The guy then further asked "Because of the Old Gods???" and got a "Right!" as an answer. You must have some really wild interpretations seeing that you are claiming Blizzard answer had nothing to do with the question, even after being double checked.

TBH, I see it this way. First blizz lets us kill C'thun. Then they make Yogg up and let us kill it too. The story at that point is that those 2 are not dead, just banished. Then Blizz thinks they would make the plot thicken by saying that killing old gods would destroy the Azeroth. Then C'thun is resurrected by Cho'gall and Cataclysm happens with Deathwing blowing up the world. Then Blizz decides they don't want to bring C'thun and Yogg back anymore so they change their mind and say those 2 are dead now. This creates an inconsistency so then Blizz decides to patch it up by saying "oh it was the death of old gods tearing the world, not Deathwing!".

I think that it's natural that everyone says it was Deathwing blowing up the world, because that's how it was presented in the game. And in Cataclysm intro - "the world heaves with my torment, its wretched kingdoms quake beneath my rage (...) The whole of Azeroth will break and all will burn beneath the shadow of my wings". Do you really want to question the fact that it screams "Deathwing breaks the world!"? I could go with explanations of the kind where deaths of old gods made Azeroth weaker, letting Deathwing demlish it, or something similar. But saying that it wasn't Deathwing doing it is like (and that's what Blizz is doing all the time with lore):

[LordHuffnPuff]

YAh yes death of the author. A trope created just so people can have their fanon and cry when called out by those who created the fictional universes.

Sorry people who follow that are borderline crazy.

Death of the Author applies only to literary analysis of text, and specifically reading elements of the author's biography into the underlying meaning of the text. It does not invalidate the author's reading of their own text, simply argues that it is not the only possible reading. However, given the nature of "the text" in Warcraft, things that Blizzard says are actually part of the "text" and not extratextual, so Death of the Author does not apply. As a transmedia property that spans games, books, videos, comics, lore Q&A sessions and more, all of these together constitute "text."

[Qualia]

TBH, I see it this way. First blizz lets us kill C'thun. Then they make Yogg up and let us kill it too. The story at that point is that those 2 are not dead, just banished. Then Blizz thinks they would make the plot thicken by saying that killing old gods would destroy the Azeroth. Then C'thun is resurrected by Cho'gall and Cataclysm happens with Deathwing blowing up the world. Then Blizz decides they don't want to bring C'thun and Yogg back anymore so they change their mind and say those 2 are dead now. This creates an inconsistency so then Blizz decides to patch it up by saying "oh it was the death of old gods tearing the world, not Deathwing!".

I'm not too sure if Blizzard originally intended for C'Thun & Yogg to be "not dead, just banished", to be honest. At least, when we killed C'Thun, the quest narration stated that he was dead ("As you look at the remnants of the colossal abomination your heart nearly freezes. Even in death you can feel the legacy of C'Thun's evil around you."). When I did a quick search (keywords = ("Old Gods" or "C'Thun") ("dead" or "banished")) ranging between 2005 to Dec, 2008 (shortly after WoTLK release), I found no claim that C'Thun was alive, or was only banished - just that he was killed (only lore-related post, obviously not counting the C'Thun down celebratory posts from guilds). Thus, I don't think the "not dead, just banished / getting physical manifestation destroyed" theory started that early. My guess would be that it only started after Herald Volazj "They do not die, they do not live, they are outside of the circle" claim. Even with that, it was still unclear whether the Old Gods were intended to be alive after we defeated them, seeing Yogg was bitter and screamed "The shadow of my corpse will choke this land for all eternity" after getting killed (that might have been shown in Legion, with Yogg's corpse still spawning those Faceless Echoes all over Ulduar).

All in all, I agree that Blizzard probably intended for the Old Gods to be more powerful than they are when they were first introduced (there were signs even though those came from NPCs) and changed their mind sometime after (probably around WoTLK). However, I'm not sure if they ever intended to kept the Old Gods alive even after we killed / defeated them, or if it was only fan theory from start until now. Being dead doesn't mean the OGs can't be brought back though, so it wouldn't be hard for Blizzard to bring them back if they want to.

I think that it's natural that everyone says it was Deathwing blowing up the world, because that's how it was presented in the game. And in Cataclysm intro - "the world heaves with my torment, its wretched kingdoms quake beneath my rage (...) The whole of Azeroth will break and all will burn beneath the shadow of my wings". Do you really want to question the fact that it screams "Deathwing breaks the world!"? I could go with explanations of the kind where deaths of old gods made Azeroth weaker, letting Deathwing demlish it, or something similar. But saying that it wasn't Deathwing doing it is like (and that's what Blizz is doing all the time with lore):

I do agree that it's very understandable that people believed Deathwing was the only cause of the Cataclysm due to what was present in game. I myself thought so as well, until I saw that interview. However, when Blizzard stated the Old Gods did it, we can only go with what they said. After all, that's canon and they haven't refuted it (yet).

I didn't say that wasn't Deathwing's doing, though. I don't think Metzen & Afrasiabi meant that either. I only said that Deathwing wasn't the sole cause of the Cataclysm, he still was the main actor. The world blows up "because of the Old Gods" doesn't mean Deathwing took no part in it. Since Blizzard hasn't given us any further explanation, I'm of the same mind that C'Thun & Yogg's deaths weakened the world, and Deathwing put in the finishing touch. I don't think people claimed that Deathwing weren't causing the Cataclysm, but more in the line of "the Old Gods' deaths took part in it, too".

[Night Wind]

The reason why people still think C'Thun and Yogg-Saron aren't dead is very simple. Herald Volazj's in-game quote "They do not live, they do not die. They are outside the cycle." is more likely to be seen than any of these out-of-game interviews.

Volazj's quote is also more likely to be seen than Yogg-Saron's in-game quote about his corpse or C'Thun's quest since it is said in a dungeon, the most popular way to level up. Herald Volazj is very good at propaganda. However C'Thun and Yogg-Saron's corpses still contain power and the Horde and Alliance just left them where they lay.

[steelballfc]

The reason why people still think C'Thun and Yogg-Saron aren't dead is very simple. Herald Volazj's in-game quote "They do not live, they do not die. They are outside the cycle." is more likely to be seen than any of these out-of-game interviews.

Volazj's quote is also more likely to be seen than Yogg-Saron's in-game quote about his corpse or C'Thun's quest since it is said in a dungeon, the most popular way to level up. Herald Volazj is very good at propaganda. However C'Thun and Yogg-Saron's corpses still contain power and the Horde and Alliance just left them where they lay.

maybe we will find that the Old Gods spirit still live in Shadowland, or some part of Emerald dream, or in other Dimension, or in Ny'alotha

[Varitok]

c'thun and yogg are dead.
deader as dead.
dead dead.
it's been confirmed multiple times.
gods sake, how many times do we have to repeat that shit till someone gets it?
blizz says they are dead.
so they are dead.
end of story.

Blizzard also said Illidan was dead so why don't you stop thinking you know that much about how Blizzard "kills" people.

[Deleted]

This is getting repetitive, like the "Old Gods don't die" matter. Did you miss all the post explaining about the Cataclysm by chance?

First of all, Wowpedia is not an official source. What is written in Wowpedia can be changed by anyone, and are as reliable as my words, or yours. Wowpedia articles can serve as great reference sources, but can't go against what Blizzard said. They wouldn't serve as a reliable source for discussion - it's better to give links to Blizzard's article or interview clips / in-game quest.

Secondly, Deathwing is the main actor of the Cataclysm. However, it was stated nowhere that he was the ONLY cause of the Cataclysm. Everyone who followed the in game lore and outside of game statements from Blizzard know that. There were pre-release events that happened while Deathwing were still all the way in Deepholm, in another dimension together. Those might or might not be related to Deathwing.
That interview is a confirmation. If you think that clip wasn't one, kindly tell me - what's your take of it? Someone asked "There is that theory that it'd be doomsday if the Old Gods are dealt with, but why haven't we seen any result even after two down?", Metzen & Afrasiabi answered "Have you played any Cataclysm? Where the world blows up? Because of the Old Gods". The guy then further asked "Because of the Old Gods???" and got a "Right!" as an answer. You must have some really wild interpretations seeing that you are claiming Blizzard answer had nothing to do with the question, even after being double checked.

But thats another fcking reason why they shouldnt be dead in the 1st place, why are we heroes destroying Azeroth by killing Old gods?!?

Also this:
''Thus, Aman'Thul, the Highfather himself, reached down through Azeroth's skies and heaved the Old God from the surface of the world. In that moment, the massive bulk of the Old One was ripped apart, and its deathrattle caused entire mountains to shatter and hundreds of titan-forged to be instantly obliterated where they stood.''

This clearly states that theyre huge, how could we have killed them when it takes a titan to do it?

So tell me what makes more sense? Destroying azeroth by killing old gods, OR Weakening the old gods so they stay imprisioned?

[Raetary]

Blizzard also said Illidan was dead so why don't you stop thinking you know that much about how Blizzard "kills" people.

illidan is dead.
if you had the beta or watched some legion vids you would know that illidans soul is in the twisting nether.
illidan just comes back, like every other demon, because you know, DEMONS REGENERATE THEIR BODIES.
or can get back to their bodies if its not destroyed.