Creators, fans and death threats: Talking to Joss Whedon, Neil Gaiman and more on the

[Endus]

Endus, it is pathetically easy to have accounts that are established with totally false identifying information. I have lots. Not on MMOC in particular, but quite a few.
Less anonymity on the web would do f all other than drive more people to establish false E-identities.

I acknowledged that possibility myself, but frankly, I think most people just won't bother. They don't seem fazed about giving Facebook a ridiculous amount of personal information about themselves, and other similar sites.

Those who feel a burning need to do so, of course, will, but there's little we can do about that, regardless of whether it's on the Internet or not. The kind of people making these threats aren't moustache-twirling genius supervillains, though. I'm talking about social commentary sites (yes, like forums) having significantly less info on you than Facebook already has; this isn't some huge sacrifice of privacy or something.

Will there be ways around it? Sure. There's ways to get away with murder, too. I'm just suggesting we have even a modicum of systems in place to take action on criminal threats. Threatening someone over the Internet shouldn't end by being banned from the site, it should end with a visit from the authorities and a potential arrest. The same way it would if you made the same threat over the phone.

[Espe]

you assumed somewhere down the line that I believed that

Every time police ask the community for information they always get assholes calling them and making shit up. Some of them get arrested depending on how far they go with the lie. But it always happens..

You're saying some people who make false reports are arrested and some aren't, could be true could not be but I'll take it at face value for the purposes of this discussion. I'm saying if people go a step further and falsify documents / posts to implicate someone in a death threat, then send that to law enforcement I would expect them to be arrested 100% of the time. I'm sorry if my phrasing was hard for you to understand, that wasn't my intention and I hope I broke it down enough this time.

- - - Updated - - -

No one sees the releveance because we know what GG was actually about. And it wasn't about harassment of content creators. They still post in there defending content creators from SJWs, like yourself, who attack them.

I'm not an SJW just because I was there at the beginning of the movement and I acknowledge that it never outgrew many of the troubling issues that spawned it. I don't understand why you feel the need to sling insults just because you choose to be willfully ignorant of the obvious relevance of my posts.

- - - Updated - - -

Threatening someone over the Internet shouldn't end by being banned from the site, it should end with a visit from the authorities and a potential arrest. The same way it would if you made the same threat over the phone.

My thoughts exactly and it boggles my mind that anyone would argue to the contrary.

Can you become that addicted to sending death threats?

[Al Gorefiend]

Internet anonimity on the broad scale truly has led to the greatest cultural decline in human history. By decline, I mean has created a moment in time where people are the most misanthropic, uncontainable and borderline criminally irresponsible in their actions. Everything from costing the economy billions of dollars annually in piracy, criminal underground trading of illegal goods and pornography, creating mass e-terrorism such as DDOS attacks and death threats, and creating huge public shifts of opinion in obscurity.

Honesty, the best way to fight the plague of Internet anonimity is to form solidarity in revealing your true identity to the online crowd and embracing it. People are better behaved when the things they say can be tracked and traced. I doubt even 5% of the people in Gen-OT would continue posting if their identities were revealed.

[urasim]

You're saying some people who make false reports are arrested and some aren't, could be true could not be but I'll take it at face value for the purposes of this discussion. I'm saying if people go a step further and falsify documents / posts to implicate someone in a death threat, then send that to law enforcement I would expect them to be arrested 100% of the time. I'm sorry if my phrasing was hard for you to understand, that wasn't my intention and I hope I broke it down enough this time.

They typically are visited by police. Why do you think SWATTING was so effective?

But there's a difference with "I hope you die","I will find you and kill you", and "I know where you live, and i'll kill you in your sleep" *while posting a picture of your address*.

I'm not an SJW just because I was there at the beginning of the moment and I acknowledge that it never outgrew many of the troubling issues that spawned it. I don't understand why you feel the need to sling insults just because you choose to be willfully ignorant of the obvious relevance of my posts.

Then you're blind. The bad parts dropped off really early. You can even see the change in the thread on this forum. Once GG kicked in, and it was about ethics, all the trolls left. It's easy to observe if you leave your bias goggles at the door.

[Espe]

Then you're blind. The bad parts dropped off really early. You can even see the change in the thread on this forum.

The last few pages I read were some people passionately arguing that bondage lolli bondage porn should be imported without being edited and others arguing that lolli bondage porn should be imported but maybe without the bondage and just the lolli porn.

Truly inspiring stuff here, I can see how much they've changed.

That doesn't even get into the ongoing harassment even after #FiveGuysAndFries adopted the faux ethics in journalism outrage in a desperate bid to somehow excuse their, in many cases, not just disgusting but also illegal behavior - threats, doxing, etc. In an ideal world many of them would be in jail for what they did.

[NoiseTank13]

Why do I have to keep restating my point over and over again?

This thread is about content creators being harassed. This same site has one of the last remaining threads devoted to a movement that has been known for a ton of harassment during it's very short existence. You can't honestly tell me you don't see the relevance.

Love Bojack Horseman by the way, hope for many more seasons.

Because Gamergate wasn't involved with Hepler, and really it serves no purpose to bring it up other than to derail the topic and rile up people who are obviously still passionate about it. Hepler's only real sin was saying a really dumb thing (all games should be as easy as watching a movie, paraphrasing) in retrospect to the launch of the Bioware game where it became incredibly obvious that Bioware many people loved no longer existed, and was now an EA toy. In case anyone's forgotten, Hepler wrote DA:O's Deep Roads section which was fantastic and dark, and has indeed done good work. Just not in DA2, that I can think of.

I'm not going to debate you too hard to your second point that GG was a "harassment" campaign. Saying it was/is a "purely harassment" twitter hashtag is akin to calling Islam a "purely terroristic" religion. Was harassment involved (on both sides)? Undoubtedly. The extent and magnitude of which, however, can never be quantified and will always be contested. What I do know, is that you, in particular, have drawn your line in the sand, picked up your things and drove far, far into the distance behind it and any "discussion" about it is just going to be white-noise bereft of any nutrition to the conversation. I suppose I'm the same way, and I don't expect to have my viewpoints altered in a major way any time soon, but I do know that bringing GG is a sore subject that many people would like to move on from. What's done is done now. If you want to post about GG, feel free to do it in the topic, which is there, unlocked, and kept alive for that reason.

Back onto the topic- Hepler did not deserve the harassment she got, I also don't think Bioware did her any favors by publicly announcing they were going to donate to "Anti-bullying" charities as it just added fuel to the fire and made her look weak and vulnerable. I'm sorry she's living life the way she is now and I hope her and her family no longer has to worry about it.

As for Whedon, I always thought he was terribly overrated, but I will say I put myself firmly in the creators camp, it's his vision, it's his right to see things done his way if he really feels strongly about it, as well as his right to make complete fan-service wankery on his terms. There's indeed an entitlement complex going on in fandoms, but I worry sometimes think that developers just use that as an excuse for cut corners and clearly inadequate quality in their products. "What, people are mad about the Mass Effect 3 ending? Clearly they are entitled to a happy rainbow and puppies ending we have artisitic integrity," or "They just hate Mass Effect 3 because Steve and Vega are gay."

I don't care for most of his work, but I'll support his creative vision over a Stephen Universe zealot.

As for Bojack Horseman, yes it's a good show, but I have to take it in small doses. Too real sometimes. Don't know if I want too many seasons, just enough to seal the deal. I don't want another Archer on my hands.

[urasim]

The last few pages I read were some people passionately arguing that bondage lolli bondage porn should be imported without being edited and others arguing that lolli bondage porn should be imported but maybe without the bondage and just the lolli porn.

Truly inspiring stuff here, I can see how much they've changed.

That doesn't even get into the ongoing harassment even after #FiveGuysAndFries adopted the faux ethics in journalism outrage in a desperate bid to somehow excuse their, in many cases, not just disgusting but also illegal behavior - threats, doxing, etc. In an ideal world many of them would be in jail for what they did.

Ignore the fucking loli and think for a second. What are they doing? They're defending the content creator from censorship.

You're beyond dense, and you have the gall to mock them? Accusing them of doing illegal things? Post some proof already!

[Espe]

If you want to post about GG, feel free to do it in the topic

Again you accuse me of posting off-topic and again I have to defend my position.

I completely disagree. I don't see how much more topical it could be, this thread is about creators and harassment, #FiveGuysAndFries / GamerGate started with, caused and escalated tons of harassment and once again here on this very forum there exists one of the last threads devoted to the "movement" even though it should have been closed already several times per the site rules. People were talking solutions and I suggested starting at home.

As for Bojack Horseman, yes it's a good show, but I have to take it in small doses. Too real sometimes. Don't know if I want too many seasons, just enough to seal the deal. I don't want another Archer on my hands.

I like the mix of comedy and drama, dark and light. You're right that it seems too real sometimes and I think that is because it does seem to give a taste of what life is really like - silly and serious, wonderful and terrifying, brilliant and stupid.

I concede that good things can go on too long sometimes but I still enjoy Archer, most of the time anyway

- - - Updated - - -

Ignore the fucking loli

Right here, right at the beginning is where your argument falls apart.

[Berengil]

As for Whedon, I always thought he was terribly overrated, but I will say I put myself firmly in the creators camp, it's his vision, it's his right to see things done his way if he really feels strongly about it, as well as his right to make complete fan-service wankery on his terms. There's indeed an entitlement complex going on in fandoms, but I worry sometimes think that developers just use that as an excuse for cut corners and clearly inadequate quality in their products. "What, people are mad about the Mass Effect 3 ending? Clearly they are entitled to a happy rainbow and puppies ending we have artisitic integrity," or "They just hate Mass Effect 3 because Steve and Vega are gay."

Indeed. he can create whatever he wants with his "artistic vision". And I can not pay to see it.

[NoiseTank13]

Again you accuse me of posting off-topic and again I have to defend my position.

I completely disagree. I don't see how much more topical it could be, this thread is about creators and harassment, #FiveGuysAndFries / GamerGate started with, caused and escalated tons of harassment and once again here on this very forum there exists one of the last threads devoted to the "movement" even though it should have been closed already several times per the site rules. People were talking solutions and I suggested starting at home.

Well I obviously disagree that bringing GG up in that manner was a positive for this topic's conversation, but so it goes.

I like the mix of comedy and drama, dark and light. You're right that it seems too real sometimes and I think that is because it does seem to give a taste of what life is really like - silly and serious, wonderful and terrifying, brilliant and stupid.

I concede that good things can go on too long sometimes but I still enjoy Archer, most of the time anyway

Has there ever been an introduction of a baby in a comedy show that didn't ring the deathknell?

[Espe]

Indeed. he can create whatever he wants with his "artistic vision". And I can not pay to see it.

This might seem really strange but I just have to say this while we're talking about him.

Dollhouse. I know, I know, I know. Just bear with me. I think in the future if it got some sort of Galactica treatment it could really be something. The transhuminism elements, government and corporate collusion, secret society angles and then how it all devolves when the tech becomes ubiquitous... I feel like there was something there. The original Deus Ex is one of my favorite games of all time though so maybe I'm just a sucker for those themes in general.

But yeah, Whedon.

- - - Updated - - -

Has there ever been an introduction of a baby in a comedy show that didn't ring the deathknell?

Nooooooo, don't write these things *covers eyes* *pretends everything is alright*

[Dhrizzle]

There are bad and good points that arise from most movements. I think we can agree, in light of recent revelations about the relation of the media and the political establishment, that gamergate did shine a light on the problem of journalist collusion. Whether you are on the left or right, I don't see how it is beneficial for the media having a 'narrative' dictated by some sort of central power. We need to put the needs of the masses who are getting their information from the media above the needs of a small group of elite that want a narrative pushed.

It really didn't shine a light on "the problem of journalist collusion." It showed that people who work in the same industry have a way of communicating with each other which should have come as a surprise to absolutely nobody. The "smoking gun" that was meant to show a "narrative dictated by some sort of central power" showed the opposite, with several writers/editors discussing and disagreeing with ethical concerns over the Gamergate issue. The closest thing thing to journalistic corruption was Milo from Breitbart reverting his stance on gamers to garner popularity and push his alt-right ideology.