Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Willoughby]

I did some Roll the Bones tests

Thanks, it's great to know exactly how stupid this spec is.

[elfporn]

Thanks, it's great to know exactly how stupid this spec is.

It's not that bad in practice imo - i've outlined the way i reroll, pretty much if i'm cp or energy starved (or have single proc GM) i will reroll until i get something that ups the pace. Most of the time it's smooth sailin - my top buffs are as zooper said, BT+SiW+anything else is godly; you don't need 6 buffs to shit on everyone else.

[no19]

I want to know what the devs think about this, the ones that dislike math so much, stubborn to the death about their design philosophy like a tiny bit of flinching is showing the enemy their biggest weakness in a life and death battle, yet still unwillingly nerfed fishing by carelessly changing the number of dices and now seems to have failed to solve the problem.

[Frimelda]

So how bad is Outlaw DPS at 110? Is it just a stat weight thing or is the spec just low DPS no matter what?

[WskyDK]

So how bad is Outlaw DPS at 110? Is it just a stat weight thing or is the spec just low DPS no matter what?

I did some Roll the Bones tests:
840 gear with balanced stats, no special proc trinkets, full artifact (no relics). You can see the character setup toward the bottom of the report (expand it to see the gear, etc).



(The 4th line is "ReRoll any 2 buff combo if you get Grand Melee, but keep 1 buff if you have Shark Infested Waters").

For links to the reports, I have a full blog post.

Also, in case you find it useful... never rerolling has you apply the buff about 11 times in a fight. The rest apply the buff 20-30 times in a fight.

ABout this well

[Deleted]

It's not bad dps, it's just random dps. You can under Performance or you can our perform anything else. Depends on your worshipping to rnd-Jesus

[Deleted]

So, Outlaw pre-patch...

First pull of the Nexus Timewalking, got all 6 buffs, me & the mob both died REAL quick. Also, anyone here try bribe? same instance, bribed one of the Crusaders' priests, hilarious having your own pet pocket healer for 5 minutes, quite effective too.

[Tellof]

I want to know what the devs think about this, the ones that dislike math so much, stubborn to the death about their design philosophy like a tiny bit of flinching is showing the enemy their biggest weakness in a life and death battle, yet still unwillingly nerfed fishing by carelessly changing the number of dices and now seems to have failed to solve the problem.

What are you even talking about? Have you ever worked in a professional environment with time-sensitive deliverables? You don't get forever to keep iterating and changing design - at a certain point you have to commit to what you have and do your best to adapt it with MINOR changes. Development of these types of things cost time and money, and there's only a month until launch. This isn't stubbornness, it's reality, and you clearly don't understand what they're up against.

Second, since when did they change the number of dice? Last I checked there are still 6 dice and 6 rolls... the only thing they have changed are the actual buffs and in some cases their effectiveness. They DID successfully discourage fishing for True Bearing 100% of the time by nerfing the CD reduction significantly, so I don't even know what you mean by "failed to solve the problem" because this was a fantastic change.

[ymirsson]

So, Outlaw pre-patch...

First pull of the Nexus Timewalking, got all 6 buffs, me & the mob both died REAL quick. Also, anyone here try bribe? same instance, bribed one of the Crusaders' priests, hilarious having your own pet pocket healer for 5 minutes, quite effective too.

I always forget about bribe. Im no good with long cooldowns.

[no19]

What are you even talking about? Have you ever worked in a professional environment with time-sensitive deliverables? You don't get forever to keep iterating and changing design - at a certain point you have to commit to what you have and do your best to adapt it with MINOR changes. Development of these types of things cost time and money, and there's only a month until launch. This isn't stubbornness, it's reality, and you clearly don't understand what they're up against.

Second, since when did they change the number of dice? Last I checked there are still 6 dice and 6 rolls... the only thing they have changed are the actual buffs and in some cases their effectiveness. They DID successfully discourage fishing for True Bearing 100% of the time by nerfing the CD reduction significantly, so I don't even know what you mean by "failed to solve the problem" because this was a fantastic change.

I think you are missing some facts I mentioned. Early in Feburary, they changed the dice number from 5 to 6 to discourage fishing (fishing was the clear choice then even without theorycrafting) along with a blue post explaining their design intention, a.k.a. how the class should be played per blizzdad's unbreakable rule - you change the rotation based on the buffs you get, you don't reroll the buffs. I said "they seem to have failed" because the same problem they made futile effort to solve half a year ago when deadline wasn't much of a pressing issue has resurfaced.

I work for Microsoft Windows team on DirectX. It might not be a flashy job but I do deal with deadlines from time to time because we release with major Windows updates. I might be venting a bit but assuming someone's real life experience with hostile rhetorical questions doesn't help.

[Frimelda]

ABout this well

I don't know how well Sub or Assassination is doing in comparison to that sim.

[Deleted]

Can anyone give me some tips on how to play so that I'm not always energy starved?

I mean I just dinged 100 and started doing some dungeons, so my gear is pretty crap, but even if I don't do AoE at all, I still find myself waiting on energy to regen. I can't even properly dps trash, because when the tank pulls the next pack I'm already spent and waiting on regen, or praying for some lucky pistol shot proc/saber slash proc.

Does this get better with more Haste or maybe some artifact talents at 110?

I love the spec, I just can't see myself play a resource starved class.

[WskyDK]

@Nheela
Between the haste and mastery you'll get on gear, you'll be fine for energy in no time

[dorfeater]

I'm so confused about Roll the Bones. So, according to the sim results above, we should be re-rolling our buffs until we get 3+ different buffs, or Shark Infested Waters. Ok, that's simple. Where I get mixed up is, Do multiple "dice" of SIW matter? Does multiple "dice" of any buff matter? The default UI just does a terrible job of indicating what is going on with RtB.

[WskyDK]

I'm so confused about Roll the Bones. So, according to the sim results above, we should be re-rolling our buffs until we get 3+ different buffs, or Shark Infested Waters. Ok, that's simple. Where I get mixed up is, Do multiple "dice" of SIW matter? Does multiple "dice" of any buff matter? The default UI just does a terrible job of indicating what is going on with RtB.

Are you asking if you can stack multiples of the same buff? I don't quite understand what you're asking

[dorfeater]

Are you asking if you can stack multiples of the same buff? I don't quite understand what you're asking

When I roll the dice, sometimes 3 dice will light up with the same buff icon. This does absolutely nothing and is just cosmetic, correct?

[Ujio]

When I roll the dice, sometimes 3 dice will light up with the same buff icon. This does absolutely nothing and is just cosmetic, correct?

When you use Roll the Bones, you can get one or more of 6 different buffs that persist for the duration of Roll the Bones. Each buff correlates to a face of a six sided die. The way that the game determines which buffs you get is by simulating rolling six 6-sided dice. The most abundant resulting face value determines which buff you receive. If two or more face values are tied for most abundant, than you receive all buffs involved in the tie. This means you can have 1,2,3, or 6 buffs from one cast of roll the bones. ~ from google / reddit

[elfporn]

I'm so confused about Roll the Bones. So, according to the sim results above, we should be re-rolling our buffs until we get 3+ different buffs, or Shark Infested Waters. Ok, that's simple. Where I get mixed up is, Do multiple "dice" of SIW matter? Does multiple "dice" of any buff matter? The default UI just does a terrible job of indicating what is going on with RtB.

Here's a good way to think about WHY SiW+any 2 buffs, or SiW+BT/broadsides/JR is worth fishing for.

When you're fishing, each time you reroll, you're making use of pandemic to get 45 seconds of whatever result you get. When fights are lasting 1-3 minutes now, 45seconds is a significant amount of time to have 85%+ crit, and be pumping out Run Through every other gcd. This is why it's a huge dps increase to get SiW with a buff that increases resource gen.

To be clear, the sim says SiW+any 2 buffs is the ideal roll to fish for. A triple proc.

And you can roll the same buff multiple rolls in a row, but they don't stack. The "6 dice" you've probably read about is just an easy way of talking about the random buff generators of the ability

[Izenhart]

So how bad is Outlaw DPS at 110? Is it just a stat weight thing or is the spec just low DPS no matter what?

They have very good DPS

It's just that sin and sub have it higher

Sims for combat rogue @110 have it higher than sub and even with sin on ideal RtB rolls but far below both with shitty rolls

Assassination DPS is non existent in any sort of >3 target fight, up to 3 they can keep up by spreading the Ruptures around

Very weak in Mythic+ which in a lot of cases is mostly 4-6 trash mob packs

Subtlety has slightly better AoE, still nowhere near Outlaw, but terrible cleave

[Broskee]

Are you saying assassination, outlaw, or rogues are weak in mythic plus?