[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Deleted]

wish they would bring blind fury and that other talent up little so fel mastery wasnt the best talent by that big a margin.

[Emek]

Hey guys, kind of took a step back from my DH when pre patch came out and kind of focused on my other classes. What are talent builds lookin like? Is the momentum tier competitive? Personally not a fan of it, so I'm JW if it's gonna be one of those talents you ALWAYS take

[Tato23]

Quest rewards are tailored to your class, as are Order Hall missions rewards, obviously. Additionally they all scale as you level up so at any point you'll get a reward that is likely to be an upgrade as you level from any zone. The general flow of quests works a bit like this. You, more or less, start legion in Dalaran (after a neat little cut scene), you get your artifact weapon quest and then your Order Hall (functionally speaking, though you may actually get to your Order Hall earlier). Directly after that you are asked to choose which zone you want to start off in. You choose and then you quest through that zone meanwhile you hop back to the order hall occasionally to complete or start order hall missions (both actual quests and mission table quests). You complete the zone, doing most if not all the quests in that zone at which point it leads you back to your order hall to choose another zone to Tackle.

In other words you really are free to choose which zone you want to level in. If you really want to stay in one zone then Azsuna is your best bet because demons, though that will be a LOT of just grinding. Also once you run out of quests in the one zone, unless you are constantly running dungeons and doing PvP you'll run out of gear upgrades and if you are doing instances you will lose some of the story line that is attached to those instances. Most of the zones culminate in you having to do an instance that ties into the zone's story.

Honestly haven't played in a zone I didn't like and you will want to get rep in all of them. Not to mention the future flying requirements will want you to complete them as well. Unless you are leveling in the manner specifically to keep the rest of the zones fresh while leveling alts I wouldn't bother with trying to stay in one zone. Generally I don't think it's worth it, plus you will get Order Hall quests (also profession quests, though those are less involved and usually just have you collecting stuff in whatever zone you are in) that will break up some of the monotony.

Okay, kind of a general question, i have struggled reading quest text in all of this game since vanilla, do i need a mod to help this? Or should i just suck it up and read to really enjoy this story?

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Hey guys, kind of took a step back from my DH when pre patch came out and kind of focused on my other classes. What are talent builds lookin like? Is the momentum tier competitive? Personally not a fan of it, so I'm JW if it's gonna be one of those talents you ALWAYS take

Last i heard, Momentum was still best, but that Nemesis was only behind by a negligible amount and Fel Eruption was just a touch below Nemesis. Someone around here has the sims and i have to get to work here otherwise I'd put 'em here.

So for cutting edge folks it'll be Momentum or GTFO and Nemesis on fights where Momentum isn't quite as feasible as the other options (which if @Vanyali 's word is anything to go by, Star Augur and Krosus are currently 2 fights where Momentum could be potentially more trouble than it's worth to try and maximize it's uptime).

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Okay, kind of a general question, i have struggled reading quest text in all of this game since vanilla, do i need a mod to help this? Or should i just suck it up and read to really enjoy this story?

I'd HIGHLY recommend getting Storyline: https://mods.curse.com/addons/wow/total-rp-3-storyline

It's definitely not for people who like to rush through quests to get to endgame ASAP, but for people who can afford to take it easy and enjoy the story it's a wonderful addon.

[Vanyali]

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...lents/106.html

ST, they're close. Ish. Momentum plls really far ahead when you add more targets.

Star Augur (mythic) is flat-out impossible for momentum (can't be moving; random movement + stars coming out = instant wipe. won't meet the nem uptime req.), Krosus is just annoying and requires you to be on-point with strafe / side rushing.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Oh it's always supposed to have been working for havoc, but they took away that function from the vengeance version a while back. This looks like they are giving it back to them.

Though I've barely played vengeance, so I would well be talking out my arse.

Gotcha, i only just bothered to get the Vengeance artifact last night, therefore my knowledge on how anything works for Vengeance is also quite limited.

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http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...lents/106.html

ST, they're close. Ish. Momentum plls really far ahead when you add more targets.

Star Augur (mythic) is flat-out impossible for momentum (can't be moving; random movement + stars coming out = instant wipe. won't meet the nem uptime req.), Krosus is just annoying and requires you to be on-point with strafe / side rushing.

Buh, Fel Eruption is certainly quite a bit further behind than i like, personally, but i'm also not beholden to playing the most optimal talent setups. Would be great if they could tailor Momentum to being the go-to for AoE and letting the other options cover other needs (obviously Fel Eruption is purely single target with a side of stun).

[Qck]

Star Augur (mythic) is flat-out impossible for momentum (can't be moving; random movement + stars coming out = instant wipe. won't meet the nem uptime req.), Krosus is just annoying and requires you to be on-point with strafe / side rushing.

I see this issue largely ignored by a lot of people, but those sims all use Fel Mastery, with Fel Rush being one of our highest DPET abilities. It doesn't matter if momentum is bad or good if Fel Rush is still being pressed on CD for optimal damage.

Buh, Fel Eruption is certainly quite a bit further behind than i like, personally, but i'm also not beholden to playing the most optimal talent setups. Would be great if they could tailor Momentum to being the go-to for AoE and letting the other options cover other needs (obviously Fel Eruption is purely single target with a side of stun).

Easily fixed by just taking Fel Rush damage off the ability base-line and making Fel Mastery let it do the damage it currently is if it hits 3+ targets. Buff other shit accordingly so we don't lose ST DPS.

Momentum isn't really the big issue, Fel Rush' overall damage especially with the talent is.

[Vanyali]

I see this issue largely ignored by a lot of people, but those sims all use Fel Mastery, with Fel Rush being one of our highest DPET abilities. It doesn't matter if momentum is bad or good if Fel Rush is still being pressed on CD for optimal damage.

you'll go beneath 50% momentum uptime, making it worth less than nem. You can fel rush occasionally, just not to the degree you require for momentum uptime.

[Qck]

you'll go beneath 50% momentum uptime, making it worth less than nem. You can fel rush occasionally, just not to the degree you require for momentum uptime.

Still, it's a sizable hit to DH damage currently.

Regardless, the point stands that Momentum isn't necessarily the biggest issue as it's being discussed in terms of the movement base damage rotation. You're still going to be using Fel Rush as much as possible even if you take Nemesis or Fel Eruption. Judging by a lot of comments I see I think people don't actually realise this and are hoping for changes on the wrong tier if they want to get away from it.

[Vanyali]

Still, it's a sizable hit to DH damage currently.

Regardless, the point stands that Momentum isn't necessarily the biggest issue as it's being discussed in terms of the movement base damage rotation. You're still going to be using Fel Rush as much as possible even if you take Nemesis or Fel Eruption. Judging by a lot of comments I see I think people don't actually realise this and are hoping for changes on the wrong tier if they want to get away from it.

Well, yes. Not gonna argue that. But at the same time you can get away with not using FR as much as you *have* to with mom build, so it's a lot less frantic in general.

[Qck]

Well, yes. Not gonna argue that. But at the same time you can get away with not using FR as much as you *have* to with mom build, so it's a lot less frantic in general.

I'm not quite sure I follow that logic(at least in the case of Fel Rush by itself). In both cases as long as you don't cap charges you're not losing damage/uptime overall, being that the charges don't recharge independently but rather in order. Just have to burn both at the end of the encounter so you don't miss out on the extra charge from not burning both initially if you do it that way. Then you almost always have one charge "in the bank" so to speak, in case you need it for movement.

Any time charges are capped, especially with the ability being second in our priority, you're losing damage. This applies Momentum or not, right? Maybe I'm just a total dolt and missing something simple.

You don't have to Vengeful Retreat though, which definitely does make it less frantic.

[Deleted]

will there be a havoc pre-patch guide on icy veins?

[Noxit]

will there be a havoc pre-patch guide on icy veins?

Already is a guide on icy-veins for the pre-patch.

[Cloudqt]

New question here about havoc dh performances in raids:

Lets say you are playing in a good guild where you have 24-25 good raiders in the roster and they rotate the classes to specifik mythic boss progression.
The question: Do you think havoc will be one of the classes that will be rotated out alot during mythic progression or the opposite?
Lets be honest here, some classes are usually very overall strong and rarely rotated out like mages, hunters, rogues etc.
Do you think Havoc will be in the same category as those classes or do you think they will be one of the speccs that are more commonly rotated out,
like ww monks, feral, ench, ret etc.

Im not asking for a 100% correct answers because that is impossible due future balance changes. Im asking for how you think it will end up like.

[Deleted]

does fel rush against one target do more damage then an auto attack?

in pre patch with demon blades in a raid situation. it procs so often that is there any point using fel rush to generate extra fury if it does not = a damage increase over just auto attacking.

[Qck]

does fel rush against one target do more damage then an auto attack?

in pre patch with demon blades in a raid situation. it procs so often that is there any point using fel rush to generate extra fury if it does not = a damage increase over just auto attacking.

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...lents/106.html

Looks like it does around 3-4x as much damage as a demon blades proc + MH AA at 110 in Mythic dungeon gear, I'm guessing the numbers aren't too much different at 100.

So yea, I think you're going to want to use it.

[Vanyali]

I'm not quite sure I follow that logic(at least in the case of Fel Rush by itself). In both cases as long as you don't cap charges you're not losing damage/uptime overall, being that the charges don't recharge independently but rather in order. Just have to burn both at the end of the encounter so you don't miss out on the extra charge from not burning both initially if you do it that way. Then you almost always have one charge "in the bank" so to speak, in case you need it for movement.

Any time charges are capped, especially with the ability being second in our priority, you're losing damage. This applies Momentum or not, right? Maybe I'm just a total dolt and missing something simple.

You don't have to Vengeful Retreat though, which definitely does make it less frantic.

You're losing damage, but damage is irrelevant if using it wipes the raid.

Momentum requires an uptime above a certain percent to beat nem on ST; not meeting that means you need to go nem for the most damage, which will almost certainly be the case. However, Fel Master doesn't require a certain uptime; it's a damage loss, but sometimes that just happens because you have to hold something to keep the raid alive. So while you will lose damage, you won't be dashing around trying to keep an uptime and wiping the raid because of it, even if you lose optimal damage.

[Deleted]

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...lents/106.html

Looks like it does around 3-4x as much damage as a demon blades proc + MH AA at 110 in Mythic dungeon gear, I'm guessing the numbers aren't too much different at 100.

So yea, I think you're going to want to use it.

nice thanks for that.

[Qck]

You're losing damage, but damage is irrelevant if using it wipes the raid.

Momentum requires an uptime above a certain percent to beat nem on ST; not meeting that means you need to go nem for the most damage, which will almost certainly be the case. However, Fel Master doesn't require a certain uptime; it's a damage loss, but sometimes that just happens because you have to hold something to keep the raid alive. So while you will lose damage, you won't be dashing around trying to keep an uptime and wiping the raid because of it, even if you lose optimal damage.

Sorry, yea, I wasn't thinking of the comparison to Nem, more along the lines of doing max available damage. Makes sense, ta.

I wonder at what level of delaying Fel Rush it becomes worse than Blind Fury. Though, I guess that's only relevant on Mythic Star Augur really, anyway.

Fel Mastery just seems overwhelmingly strong compared to the other options.

[jayinjersey]

I'd HIGHLY recommend getting Storyline: https://mods.curse.com/addons/wow/total-rp-3-storyline

It's definitely not for people who like to rush through quests to get to endgame ASAP, but for people who can afford to take it easy and enjoy the story it's a wonderful addon.

Damn son...how long has this been around?
I love this!

This would have been great for Warlords...I didn't read the quests until like the 5th time through.