No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Connll]

You literally just twisted words around to suit your own needs and accuse me of such.

For the third time: stop accusing others of your own misdeeds.

[Eapoe]

As someone who disdained and refused to use the AH for as long as possible, I can tell you that it wasn't impossible to progress through inferno difficulties without it. However, it was an excruciatingly slow and tedious process. It literally got to the point where collecting gold and paying the exorbitant prices for gear on the AH was more effective than playing the game and getting drops. We're talking on the order of multiple, multiple hours of farming without a single upgrade, and finally getting enough gold to buy one instead. This was done in a party of 4 friends, so drop rates were increased, and synergy was applied. I only once beat Diablo on Inferno, and never saw a legendary item.

And god help you if you wanted to change your build and use different stats. Uhg.





Reaper of Souls is almost a completely different game. It's MUCH better, and far more enjoyable, especially once you start getting the different set bonuses and legendaries to change the way your character plays. Challenges like Item Set dungeons, and the progression of Greater Rifts keep things interesting.

But how that all pertains to flying in WoW? Well, it seems pretty clear that Blizzard is intent on treating flight like a feature they'd rather not deal with. This comes into direct conflict with the portion of the playerbase that wants it in the game. I really just wish they'd apply their intellect, experience, and innovation to the problem instead of sticking their head in the sand with Pathfinder.

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I'm going to interject here, because we just went over this in the last few posts. Anyone who played D3 into the Inferno difficulty level really began to feel just how bad the drop system was in comparison to the AH. "Playing the game" for upgrades was mind-numbingly tedious, on the order of farming for literal days(24 hours worth of game time) without seeing an upgrade. There was an obvious conflict of interests here as well due to the RMAH, and it quickly became apparent that Blizzard intended players to use the AH to gear up so they could get their fee.

Let me reiterate: This wasn't a simple case of the AH being the path of LEAST resistance. This was a case of the AH being, literally, ten times more effective. Not even flying in WoW is on that level of magnitude. It is blatantly obvious that Blizzard wanted people to use the AH, and wanted to test the effectiveness of the RMAH as well. They set the game up to funnel people into using those tools to accomplish that in the same way a F2P game will use a paywall to promote purchases. Sure...you COULD just grind it out, but it would be a monumental time sink.

As I said before, to suggest otherwise is either disingenuous or willfully ignorant.



There have been many times that I've put you(and others) on my ignore list. Mostly when posts break down into personal insults instead of discussing the topic at hand, like right now. We ALL really need to bring it back to the arguments being made, and NOT going after the people making the posts.



Again, see my point about the F2P model. Yes, you can complete the game "normally", but it's slower and more tedious and filled with nonsense. And keep in mind that, for nearly a decade, flight WAS normal. The core issue that needs to be fixed is that Blizzard created a non-insignificant portion of the playerbase that grew accustomed to flight. They gave it to us, and we had it long enough, that in many people's minds it became part of what WoW is, as much as raiding is a part of the game, as much as Battlegrounds, or dungeons, or gearing up.

The problem is that they're trying to brute force a "fix" by removing it, when they should be using finesse, innovation, and creativity. Flight is a large enough part of the game that it should be treated accordingly. This isn't some tiny change like hit rating, or reforging. This is literally the design of the entire open world and how players interact with it, as well as the way in which MILLIONS of players perceive the game.

There is a very in your face problem with some of this latest post of yours. You stated that a game is built around something (the AH), but then go on to say that it's not necessary to finish the game. The fact it's not necessary to beat the game, least of all continue playing the game, means that it can not be built around that one feature. In fact, it actually makes it even more of a path of least resistance as it just gives players that farmed/acquired the gold to get more powerful gear at a much faster rate.
You state that it's boring, tedious, and slow, yet that is the design of the game. Even with the current model of D3 (well, 1 season ago, I haven't bothered with this one) you still run into those issues. The tediousness of grinding the same content over and over, with the acquisition of gear being relatively slow for some people (I myself last season played many hours and still missed many things that would finish my gear out and most was rolled not Ancient) has always existed, it was just made better thru increased drop rates. That's why I stopped playing D3, it became tedious time and no longer fun. This is also where I make the point that if WoW feels this way because of game design they have the right to stop playing altogether.
You do, in fact, have the right to say WoW was built around flight in previous xpacs, because indeed it was; however, that is no longer the case. The necessity of flight was removed from making things accessible by ground or thru in game means such as a ferry transport or a cannon blast to and from unreachable areas. The problems with some of your previous posts comes down to discussing how ground gameplay is not enjoyable because of how it is designed, but then show examples of making flight better by putting those elements in the air. That doesn't make flight enjoyable, it makes it ground gameplay in the air. Your posts have since moved on to try and show examples that don't hold up, such as comparing the AH to flight or comparing flight to raids, with little actual topic about ways to fix flight to be added at launch.

[Dormie]

Good riddance, flight.

[Connll]

As someone who disdained and refused to use the AH for as long as possible, I can tell you that it wasn't impossible to progress through inferno difficulties without it. However, it was an excruciatingly slow and tedious process. It literally got to the point where collecting gold and paying the exorbitant prices for gear on the AH was more effective than playing the game and getting drops. We're talking on the order of multiple, multiple hours of farming without a single upgrade, and finally getting enough gold to buy one instead. This was done in a party of 4 friends, so drop rates were increased, and synergy was applied. I only once beat Diablo on Inferno, and never saw a legendary item.

And god help you if you wanted to change your build and use different stats. Uhg.

Well, yeah, it *is* possible to progress in the game without "getting fun, varied and powerful loot". But in that case, the main premise of the Diablo games, what gives the players the most fun factor... is just *not* there.

Reaper of Souls is almost a completely different game. It's MUCH better, and far more enjoyable, especially once you start getting the different set bonuses and legendaries to change the way your character plays. Challenges like Item Set dungeons, and the progression of Greater Rifts keep things interesting.

So I have heard. Nonetheless, I have no real intention of buying Reaper of Souls.

But how that all pertains to flying in WoW? Well, it seems pretty clear that Blizzard is intent on treating flight like a feature they'd rather not deal with. This comes into direct conflict with the portion of the playerbase that wants it in the game. I really just wish they'd apply their intellect, experience, and innovation to the problem instead of sticking their head in the sand with Pathfinder.

Indeed.

Perhaps the saddest part of this is, Given how they managed to transform that heap of garbage known as Diablo 3 into a good game (Reaper of Souls), they could do the same for WoD, or Legion, or Flight, if only they wanted it.

But alas, that is not the case. We will probably have to wait a few months after suptember (maybe October), when the no-flight outcry (and bleeding subs) will force the devs to acknowledge the issue.

[Tyraena]

Flight was a cool way to avoid content once you had done it the expected way. I understand everyone has their own opinions on when and where it should be used, but an author doesn't sell his own cliffs notes to a book he writes so you can circumvent all the story parts except then salient ones, and blizzard doesn't have to provide you a means of circumventing the story they want to tell until there is no reason for you to have it told in such a way any more.

[Mafic]

Ive been playing Beta for a while now and i must say i dont miss flying neither do i think we need it.

Preach said the polar opposite in that it is absolutely necessary.

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Flight was a cool way to avoid content once you had done it the expected way. I understand everyone has their own opinions on when and where it should be used, but an author doesn't sell his own cliffs notes to a book he writes so you can circumvent all the story parts except then salient ones, and blizzard doesn't have to provide you a means of circumventing the story they want to tell until there is no reason for you to have it told in such a way any more.

Flight doesn't circumvent content that is relevant to endgame characters. No wonder the education systems around the world are going in the toilet. Young grasshoppers no longer know how to think critically.

Let me explain it you slowly...in a Korean grinder where every ounce of XP matters and fighting your way through a series of mobs benefits the player that design paradigm is acceptable.

But that design doesn't work in Legion even with the scaled NPC's, because XP leveling in WoW is completed for casual players in months when it would take years to reach level cap for casual players in Korean grinders. It takes years for hardcore players to reach level cap in Korean grinders lol!

So all that is left it is loot tables which are poor and inferior to what LFR/mythics provide. Legendaries have a higher chance to drop in instanced content than out in the world.

So, fighting mobs that have nothing to do with your emissary quest or world quest is simply a waste of time.

Period.

[SirCowdog]

There is a very in your face problem with some of this latest post of yours. You stated that a game is built around something (the AH), but then go on to say that it's not necessary to finish the game. The fact it's not necessary to beat the game, least of all continue playing the game, means that it can not be built around that one feature. In fact, it actually makes it even more of a path of least resistance as it just gives players that farmed/acquired the gold to get more powerful gear at a much faster rate.

It is not necessary to use an airplane, a car, a bike, or even a skateboard to cross the country, but they sure as hell make it faster. You could walk or crawl across the country, and oh boy would you REALLY enjoy the textures of those hot desert roads. Tedium does not directly equate to enjoyment. This is the failing of the logic about removing flight: The assumption that everyone is interested in doing everything, and doing it from only a single perspective.

Have you ever played a F2P game with a paywall, but didn't pay? Just because you CAN accomplish things by sinking ten times as much time and effort into doing it doesn't make it FUN to do it. And just because there's a better way of doing something doesn't automatically mean that the better way is without value.

You state that it's boring, tedious, and slow, yet that is the design of the game. Even with the current model of D3 (well, 1 season ago, I haven't bothered with this one) you still run into those issues. The tediousness of grinding the same content over and over, with the acquisition of gear being relatively slow for some people (I myself last season played many hours and still missed many things that would finish my gear out and most was rolled not Ancient) has always existed, it was just made better thru increased drop rates. That's why I stopped playing D3, it became tedious time and no longer fun. This is also where I make the point that if WoW feels this way because of game design they have the right to stop playing altogether.

You're making the mistake of confusing your own personal enjoyment of the game with the objective improvement of the underlying game mechanics. Loot 2.0 and Reaper of Souls are objective improvements over the systems used in vanilla D3.

Could flying recieve the same treatment as Loot 2.0, and improve the game as much as RoS did for Diablo 3? We'll never know unless Blizzard pull the stick out and tries it. As I said before, removing flight from WoW, or giving it the Pathfinder treatment is akin to taking the AH out of D3, but never improving the loot systems.

You do, in fact, have the right to say WoW was built around flight in previous xpacs, because indeed it was; however, that is no longer the case. The necessity of flight was removed from making things accessible by ground or thru in game means such as a ferry transport or a cannon blast to and from unreachable areas. The problems with some of your previous posts comes down to discussing how ground gameplay is not enjoyable because of how it is designed, but then show examples of making flight better by putting those elements in the air. That doesn't make flight enjoyable, it makes it ground gameplay in the air. Your posts have since moved on to try and show examples that don't hold up, such as comparing the AH to flight or comparing flight to raids, with little actual topic about ways to fix flight to be added at launch.

You mean the ground game that everyone of you guys seems to be defending so rigorously? If the ground game is so damn good, then you should have absolutely no problems with extending that quality into the air as well.

Regardless, I've made it clear that the things I've suggested for keeping flying mounts interesting and relative have only been SUGGESTIONS, or examples of past mechanics. I've also said that I would expect Blizzard to apply their experience, intellect, and mastery of the MMO genre to expand on those ideas. I've also suggested changing the core mechanics of how mounts work so that ground and air mounts are an equal choice.

The fact that you disagree with my points does not invalidate them.


As a side note, I wasn't the one who originally compared the D3 AH to flying. I believe that was either Wingwong or Dhrizzle. I'm simply took the topic and expanded upon it.

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Flight was a cool way to avoid content once you had done it the expected way. I understand everyone has their own opinions on when and where it should be used, but an author doesn't sell his own cliffs notes to a book he writes so you can circumvent all the story parts except then salient ones, and blizzard doesn't have to provide you a means of circumventing the story they want to tell until there is no reason for you to have it told in such a way any more.

With all due respect, videogames are not books or movies. They are interactive media. The enjoyment is created equally by the "author" AND the players, and are often not at all linear, especially in open world formats. Blizzard has created a game which appeals to a VERY broad array of different players, and some of those players enjoy the flying that BLIZZARD THEMSELVES put in the game. Only now they're attempting to tell players that there is only one way to play the game, and only one way to get enjoyment out of it.

I'm sorry, but that's just not right, especially when the game has been shown to work perfectly well with flying in the past. It was not a problem until Blizzard made it into one by attempting to remove it entirely.

[rebecca191]

Ive been playing Beta for a while now and i must say i dont miss flying neither do i think we need it.

To each their own, I barely touched the beta after getting one character to 110 because I was tired of ground travel and I knew there was no end in sight. It wasn't unbearable to go through the zones once while leveling (even though I did have multiple moments of WHY CAN'T THERE JUST BE FLYING HERE, IT WOULD BE SO MUCH BETTER, UGH THIS TERRAIN IS DUMB, IT ALL LOOKS THE SAME WHY CAN I ONLY GO UP ON ONE SIDE OF THIS HILL!) but I know it's not something I would enjoy dealing with for months. Only positive thing I have to say is the zones are pretty and I would have loved to get a better look from the air, the story was good, enjoyed the lore in my artifact class quests. So it's not as if I totally hate it, it just has no replay value for me at this time without any hope of flying in the near future so why pay for something I already did for free... since I'd just re-level the character I just leveled on beta then sit doing pretty much nothing. Much better to just wait it out and save my money for now.

[Vestig3]

Preach said the polar opposite in that it is absolutely necessary.

Ye but we all know preach is a attention whore, you get a whistle that brings you to the nearest FP and thats all you realy need tbh and personaly i hope we dont see flying till 7.3.

[Deleted]

Ive been playing Beta for a while now and i must say i dont miss flying neither do i think we need it.

It is totally ok that you decided for yourself that you don't need flight in Legion. But speak for yourself. Maybe you are not used to things like that, but most people decide for themselves what they need and wand in a game they are suppose to pay monthly for. And that fact isn't changed by your "i have played the Beta...".

[rebecca191]

Ye but we all know preach is a attention whore, you get a whistle that brings you to the nearest FP and thats all you realy need tbh.

That depends how you are defining "need." It's a game, so for me when I think of "need", it's generally in the context of "what does this game need to have for me to be able to have fun playing it?" And for me the answer is, WoW needs flying to be currently unlockable. I prefer to buy it with gold, heck I preferred to just have it while leveling, there's a reason Cata was the only expac where I had an army of max level alts. But, what I can live with is - I'm willing to grind an achievement, I'm not willing to grind an achievement then sit around for months waiting for the reward to be activated. But a means of obtaining flight needs to be in the game for me to be able to enjoy it. Highmountain was a beautiful zone but I truly have no desire to ever go through that place on a ground mount again anytime soon.

[Deleted]

Ye but we all know preach is a attention whore, you get a whistle that brings you to the nearest FP and thats all you realy need tbh and personaly i hope we dont see flying till 7.3.

Then you probably will be a bit disappointed. Blizzard already said they won't drag it out this far.

[classic username]

Ive been playing Beta for a while now and i must say i dont miss flying neither do i think we need it.

no... YOU dont need it. I need it

[rebecca191]

Then you probably will be a bit disappointed. Blizzard already said they won't drag it out this far.

Legion has potential unfortunately for me no flight really drags it down. (pun not intended) I do hope they activate flying in a reasonable time frame and don't add too many additional stupid requirements to it.

[Perkunas]

no... YOU dont need it. I need it

I think you've confused want and need.

[classic username]

I think you've confused want and need.

i think you know nothing about what i want and need

[Perkunas]

i think you know nothing about what i want and need

Again, I think you're confused. In English there is a distinct difference in the words want and need. You need to breathe, you need to eat, you need to go to sleep. You want to breathe fresh air, you want to eat delicious food, you want to sleep in a comfortable bed. Sometimes I hate English.

[Vestig3]

Then you probably will be a bit disappointed. Blizzard already said they won't drag it out this far.

Dont expect to get this it 7.1

[rebecca191]

Do people need to spell it out in detailed paragraphs that when they say "need" they mean they need it in order to have fun and enjoy the game? I specified that but if someone else didn't specify I'd assume they meant "need" in that way. Technically you don't need ground mounts or flight paths either and they could just make everyone walk everywhere and it would take forever, most however would not enjoy it and say "hey this sucks we need to move faster or this game isn't any fun."

[SirCowdog]

Dont expect to get this it 7.1

I suspect that has a LOT to do with how well the game does in 7.0. As we saw in WoD, subs dropped pretty dramatically in the months following launch(probably mostly due to the extreme lack of content, but lack of flight was also a factor). WoD was also launched following a 14 month content drought, similar to Legion. If Legion's content and gameplay can hold up, Blizzard will push flight back as far as possible. But if the grounded open world starts to become onerous due to the lack of flight, and people start cancelling or complaining heavily enough, we might see it back in the game sooner rather than later.