Why do Jaina and Genn get so much shit?

[wonderlust]

But who gets more shit, justifiably so, are the people who claim Sylvanas is like the Lich King. Using that quote tells all of us you have no idea what you are talking about.

This type of reasoning in a discussion is unacceptable. It basically reads as "people who want to criticize Sylvanas's actions are automatically wrong, and we won't even listen to what they have to say".

It's the type of behavior that makes me not take the lore discussions on the MMO-C forums as seriously as I could. They're too lopsided.

[Halyon]

snip

Problem with that though is, when you're in a leadership position, it should be in your interest to know as much about the situation as possible, regardless of one's own personal convictions based only on what they saw and felt.

It's like nobody's ever heard of scrying or spies, contacts etc...

Granted I have less of an issue with Genn as I do Jaina. Genn at least knows the shit with Sylvanas being a lying scumbag.

[Deleted]

It's like nobody's ever heard of scrying or spies, contacts etc...

The Legion did, that's why Detheroc inflitrates the SI:7 after capturing Mathias Shaw making his recon at the Broken Shore.

Brilliant, I must say.

[Prismite]

Problem with that though is, when you're in a leadership position, it should be in your interest to know as much about the situation as possible, regardless of one's own personal convictions based only on what they saw and felt.

It's like nobody's ever heard of scrying or spies, contacts etc...

I dont disagree, but to which point are you speaking?

[Darktbs]

Can people stop saying she was neutral?

Jaina was ALWAYS a Alliance leader.However she was always trying to negotiate with the Horde for Peace sake.Like Thrall,he was the Warchief of the Horde but would be chill on diplomatic moments.

The only moment that Jaina's story is confusing is on War Crimes forwards.

Tides of War she was hatefull after that she was chill until 5.1.then she was hatefull again.Ok

But on War Crimes she has a change of hearth but that didn't happen in WoD.

[Halyon]

I dont disagree, but to which point are you speaking?

All of them in general. It's a general problem to a one-sided view. Of course, you could make a flimsy argument that if you only know 1 side, you're justified in whatever reaction you take...except you're not. Not in a position of power and leadership like these people are.

[Astalnar]

Jaina I dislike because of piss poor writing, that isn't her fault. Genn I have never liked. The Scourge are spreading help us Genn! Genn was all like 'Screw you guys, I'm building a wall'. Oh shit worgen curse spreading, well we can deal with that. Fuck Cataclysm, my wall! Who let all these undead in? NOOO! MY SON! THEY ALL MUST DIE! MAH REVENGE!

Actually it was like: "Screw you guys, I'm not gonna pay taxes to feed those greenskins in the internment camps, we should just kill them all in the first place. I'm just going to build the wall, and see how you all like it." You got the rest right.

As a side note, can we please stop with the sob-story of Jaina's supposed neutrality? If you poke the bear in the ass (and that's what Theramore's invasion to Barrens was), don't be surprised when that bear mauls you to death. You mess with the Horde, your town gets destroyed. First time, it was her father poking the bear, Thrall decided to be mercyful, and just purged the city of hostile forces. Second time it was Jaina instead of her father, and this time Garrosh was like, nope, not doing this the third time.

[Pandaofsorrow]

Genn - sorta gets to be mad, forsaken had little reason to invade/ kill. With its proximity to the undercity it's understandable that they would go after gilneas. So it was a smart move for the forsaken but it's still not very nice

Jaina - basically is buddy buddy with the horde at first but then makes her city the landing point for the alliance's invasion of horde territory. So she's a sneaky backstabber that was wearing a guise of neutrality. Garrosh gave notice before turning her city into a crater for the benefit of her people. She's angry at the horde for reasons that were completely under her control. I hate her character because she used to be wise , now she's acting like a spoiled child because she got put in her place .

Sadly I see this expansion not ending well for genn for sure and he's not as bad as Jaina

[Hitei]

That fight was doomed with or without the horde. Sure things looked all rosy on the ground, but on the ridge we had three fucking spaceships and several portals firing on us. Not to mention we had worse tech than the alliance. No gunship, no mech-suit gnomes. Nothing we could use to deal with the spaceships.

Please, three legion ships is nothing compared to having Brutallus, Destromath, Jaraxxus, the entire Dread Lord team and pretty much every named demon you just finished killing summoned in. You had trump cards, your leaders just decided to use them to retreat instead of pressing the attack.

[Evilfish]

I honestly don't mind Jaina being a warmonger. She's more interesting that way.

What bothers me is how crap she is. She's the worse leader you can find. I mean total crap and she's still considered a leader. She gets away with all sorts of crap decisions. And the only time she didn't get away was when Garrosh attacked her city which was justified by the way. But for some reason everyone feels sorry for her and nobody points out her fault in that misfortune series of events.

And Graymane? I dislike him because he talks big but all he's known for is running away and hiding. I don't get how anyone would consider that guy a "hero".

[Goldielocks]

After world war 2 the german empire was dismantled and germany itself was separated into 2 halves governed under the supervision of the Allies one side and Russia the other. It took many decades for germany to obtain full autonomy again.

Now, lets compare with what happened to the horde post Garrosh. Oh thats right! Jaina wanted to do the same thing the Allies did to germany and ensured peace in europe till this day. Yes, hateful warmonger Jaina. /rolleyes
She was the most reasonable of them. Varian was a fool. It's not like Jaina went: lets slaughter them! Thats what a warmonger would do. Jaina is not a warmonger, she just grew to understand that the horde will never change. The horde behaved under Thrall... but under other warchiefs it's a clusterf.

But at the same time, Germany didn't have a rebellion from the inside. Here's the difference. If Germany had something like that, then the consequences would have been much different. Punishing Germany with the rebellion as the ruling power would have been in poor taste.

The leaders of the Horde did not agree with Garrosh. It doesn't make sense to punish them when they did nothing to Jaina. Garrosh is dead. It's over.

[Deleted]

Can people stop saying she was neutral?

She called herself and Dalaran neutral, a beacon of peace and hope, when Varian asked her to withdraw the Sunreavers from Dalaran, before the Divine Bell theft and the Purge of Dalaran.

[Halyon]

Please, three legion ships is nothing compared to having Brutallus, Destromath, Jaraxxus, the entire Dread Lord team and pretty much every named demon you just finished killing summoned in. You had trump cards, your leaders just decided to use them to retreat instead of pressing the attack.

Lol no... We were fighting an actual legion, you were about to fight the named demons of ye olde raide, then shit collectively hit the fan. The McLargehuge fucker of a Fel Reaver would've just buttfucked everyone while the named demons pranced about like fauns on a summer day.

It was lost either way you slice the cake, and for the time we were fighting, Horde were holding the floodgates.

[Deleted]

Please, three legion ships is nothing compared to having Brutallus, Destromath, Jaraxxus, the entire Dread Lord team and pretty much every named demon you just finished killing summoned in. You had trump cards, your leaders just decided to use them to retreat instead of pressing the attack.

[Aeula]

So you basically faction changed to azeroths axis faction at the time?

Garrosh was going anyway, we'd known that since blizzcon. Plus the very next patch was all about preparing to rebel against him. I felt Theramoore was a valid target and up until 5.3 garrosh hadn't really done anything really bad, other than treat his allies like shit that is.

Please, three legion ships is nothing compared to having Brutallus, Destromath, Jaraxxus, the entire Dread Lord team and pretty much every named demon you just finished killing summoned in. You had trump cards, your leaders just decided to use them to retreat instead of pressing the attack.

Those demons never engaged the alliance. They sat at the back and watched as Gul'dan and his petty waves did the work. And we hadn't just killed them, they'd all died individually several years ago. Fighting the lot of them all at once was a no-go. Besides we had our own demonic 'legends' to deal with up on the ridge (every boss from the legion invasion events).

[Spunt]

Please, three legion ships is nothing compared to having Brutallus, Destromath, Jaraxxus, the entire Dread Lord team and pretty much every named demon you just finished killing summoned in. You had trump cards, your leaders just decided to use them to retreat instead of pressing the attack.

Watch both cutscenes. Horde had to deal with WAY more stuff than alliance.

[Prismite]

Watch both cutscenes. Horde had to deal with WAY more stuff than alliance.

This is the entire point of the cinematic. Both sides feel they had the worst of it, but it would have been way worse for both sides without the other.

Although when I see Jaraxxus, Brutallas and some of the other, older content guys there I think we might have had a chance

[Deleted]

Those demons never engaged the alliance. They sat at the back and watched as Gul'dan and his petty waves did the work. And we hadn't just killed them, they'd all died individually several years ago. Fighting the lot of them all at once was a no-go. Besides we had our own demonic 'legends' to deal with up on the ridge (every boss from the legion invasion events).

It's pointless. It could be Sargeras himself attacking the Horde, they are "cowards" and deserve to die just because stuff.

And yet it still doesn't justify Jaina's flip-flopping if anyone read the War Crimes.

[Grimbold21]

While one could relate to their motives, what do you believe most people will think when there's characters attempting to divide your forces in the face of an enemy who left unopposed will destroy the world?

I mean, do you seriously believe the Alliance alone could defeat the Legion?

[Hitei]

It's pointless. It could be Sargeras himself attacking the Horde, they are "cowards" and deserve to die just because stuff.

And yet it still doesn't justify Jaina's flip-flopping if anyone read the War Crimes.

I'm amazed you guys didn't just turn around and run away the second we got through the dark portal and saw the Iron Horde, with this attitude.

Maybe you should change your motto to "Lok'tar or retreat".