No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Mafic]

What could be the pros of having scaling NPCs?

In other games it translates to increased drop rates on items of value. WoW is still based on raid gear offering the best gear in the game not outside mobs out in the world so the value of scaling NPCs is decreased.

Restricting flight in WoW for the open world makes no sense because the best loot is going to be gated behind instances like rated PVP and raids/mythics anyways.

[Connll]

Non linear leveling gameplay. Makes every mob in every zone give the chance for max level gear for whatever you are doing (going to a quest area, farming mats, just wanting to run around without going to far from the home base, etc), basically equal loot chance for all mobs. In case one day you might want to farm mats in a lightly populated area or grind mobs out for AP/random legendary drops, you have the choice to do those in any zone. Prevents bottlenecking in leveling zones with being able to progress however you want to.

In other games it translates to increased drop rates on items of value. WoW is still based on raid gear offering the best gear in the game not outside mobs out in the world so the value of scaling NPCs is decreased.

Restricting flight in WoW for the open world makes no sense because the best loot is going to be gated behind instances like rated PVP and raids/mythics anyways.

I think you are both right.

[wing5wong]

The artifact grind is going to break people IMO with this ground and pound strategy that Blizzard is pushing. This is why I am surprised they think no flying is going to work. They probably know it will fail because they wouldn't have bothered with the flight path whistle.

Can u drop the ground and pound rhetoric already - absolutely nothing has changed in the wow combat/quest system in this regard (outside of flying to a floating rock).

I'd prefer a game world with only the objectives over one filled with useless trash everywhere. It's called trash for a reason: Pointless garbage taking up space. Useless. Unimportant.

Adding more trash and making people slog through it doesn't make the world less boring. It makes it MORE boring because people get sick of dealing with stuff that has nothing to do with what they're actually trying to accomplish. At least in Diablo 3 you're earning experience and pushing your paragon level forward. Do these uselss trash mobs even have a chance to drop artifact power or order-hall resources? Or do they only exist to daze you and push you off your already slow ground mount?

Obviously there is a balance to be made in terms of this. If thy literally only 'exist to daze you' then sure, its a problem. Without them, the zones are empty. If you add them all to the quest objectives people get pissed off because now the questing experience is too long.

- - - Updated - - -

In other games it translates to increased drop rates on items of value. WoW is still based on raid gear offering the best gear in the game not outside mobs out in the world so the value of scaling NPCs is decreased.

Restricting flight in WoW for the open world makes no sense because the best loot is going to be gated behind instances like rated PVP and raids/mythics anyways.

The non linear gameplay aspect is huge. It is incredibly boring going to the same zone, completing the same sets of dailies, killing the same mobs for the same result.

As a primary way of obtaining gear yes, its always been that way. Legion brings the possibility of obtaining the best gear in the world too.
If you think legion was developed to be consumed in a different way to raiding/mythic+/pvp then... i dont know what to say. maybe next expansion will be focused on the supercasual?

[rebecca191]

overly exaggerated, yet again.

Better gear and flying are completely unrelated. If the mobs are so unbearably difficult that gear is the solution, how does flying improve that experience at all? You still need to do the zone, flight doesnt change it.



Again, mob scaling and flight are completely unrelated. why would you leave the mobs at 109? What purpose does that serve other than making things easier to kill? It gets you back on your mount faster?



Do we really jsut need to add more obs to the quests before this stops being an issue? just because a mob is not specifically noted on the quest does not mean it should be removed. that would make for an extremely empty and boring world.

The mobs aren't hard unless you pull too many. They are however very boring and tedious because they have a lot of HP.

[wing5wong]

The mobs aren't hard unless you pull too many. They are however very boring and tedious because they have a lot of HP.

1. dont pull too many
2. dont pull too many

This is the entire point of gear progression. you make the mobs too easy at the start, and by the time you have any gear, the mobs are too easy to kill and you have the opposite effect.

None of this is anything to do with flying though

[rebecca191]

I either have to pull them and kill them, or run through and risk daze. When I spend more time on that than the actual quest, to me that is a problem. When it is literally faster to die than clear a bunch of excess mobs not part of the quest, to me that is a problem. If that is okay game design to you, and you don't mind it, fine. But for me it is a problem that makes the game significantly less fun.

I wouldn't mind the HP if not for freaking daze. So it is not that I want the HP nerfed so much as a better way to avoid non quest mobs with huge HP pools. While I will eventually have to do the zone to get flying, by the time flying is available, better gear will be more easily obtainable which will make it at least quicker.

[SirCowdog]

As a matter of fact they do drop resources for AP (albeit a very small amount), with chances at world epics and even legendaries. Some mobs also drop resources for crafting professions for people that do not have a gathering profession for the BoP items.

Well that's something, at least. I'd be curious to know what the drop-rate is, however. If it's anything like normal world drops, then the ratio of trash mobs to rewards for dealing with them still probably isn't worth it. But that's not much out of line with the philosophy of Pathfinder anyway(Do everything and get an insignificant reward).

Does EVERY trash mob drop tiny AP? Or is it just a chance to drop?

[wing5wong]

I either have to pull them and kill them, or run through and risk daze. When I spend more time on that than the actual quest, to me that is a problem. When it is literally faster to die than clear a bunch of excess mobs not part of the quest, to me that is a problem. If that is okay game design to you, and you don't mind it, fine. But for me it is a problem that makes the game significantly less fun.

Think of them as part of the quest - your problem goes away

[SirCowdog]

Obviously there is a balance to be made in terms of this. If thy literally only 'exist to daze you' then sure, its a problem. Without them, the zones are empty. If you add them all to the quest objectives people get pissed off because now the questing experience is too long.

I've never heard anyone complain of the questing experience taking too long, not even in vanilla. Usually the complaint is that there isn't ENOUGH content. Part of that is because the open world usually becomes worthless the moment you hit level cap and move into dungeons and raids. I'm curious to see how well World Quests and Order Hall missions really hold up this time around, with world scaling.

I still have a VERY hard time seeing the value of trash mobs that aren't actually associated with any objectives. Ambiance isn't really enough of a justification when that ambiance is dazing and dismounting you constantly. Personally, I foresee myself using lots of invisibility pots, shadowmeld, stealth, and whatever tricks I can discover to avoid trash until I finish Legion Pathfinder(once it's fully in the game, anyway).

[Connll]

Think of them as part of the quest - your problem goes away

So, pretend that the terrible design isn´t terrible?

[Eapoe]

Well that's something, at least. I'd be curious to know what the drop-rate is, however. If it's anything like normal world drops, then the ratio of trash mobs to rewards for dealing with them still probably isn't worth it. But that's not much out of line with the philosophy of Pathfinder anyway(Do everything and get an insignificant reward).

Does EVERY trash mob drop tiny AP? Or is it just a chance to drop?

Haven't been following every update to it, but last I knew every mob will drop AP and have a chance at dropping one of the legendary class items, with the amount of AP and chance to drop legendaries being increased with harder mobs/instance mobs. Haven't seen anything with actual percentages of numbers, but it's probably something like 10 AP for normal world mobs going up into the thousands on raid mobs, with legendaries being something like maybe 1% for world mobs up to 10-20% on bosses.
One of the reasons Legion has been compared to D3.
(Numbers are not exact or accurate, just ones I made up to show the scaling difference for the mob types)

[Lixo]

Good decision. People clearly have a hard time grasping the fact that when they do this, they can design the world in a way that doesn't require flying mounts with treasures requiring "tricky" jumps etc.

[wing5wong]

So, pretend that the terrible design isn´t terrible?

The design is the same if you just add them to the quest objective.
Quests that involve killing are ALWAYS going to have extra things around it, the design hasnt chaged at all - only the way the progress tracking is worded.
"fight your way through the camp to loot X",fill progress bar,and so on. That way the actual mob count is irellevant

[Connll]

The design is the same if you just add them to the quest objective.

And adding a terrible design to a quest is supposed to make it better?

Quests that involve killing are ALWAYS going to have extra things around it, the design hasnt chaged at all - only the way the progress tracking is worded.

Except that I need to kill an undefined, but probably large, number of useless, inconsequential mobs that I probably don´t want to, in my way to the quest objective.

Yay?

"fight your way through the camp to loot X",fill progress bar,and so on. That way the actual mob count is irellevant

The count is relevant if they aren´t related to the quest.

[SirCowdog]

The design is the same if you just add them to the quest objective.
Quests that involve killing are ALWAYS going to have extra things around it, the design hasnt chaged at all - only the way the progress tracking is worded.
"fight your way through the camp to loot X",fill progress bar,and so on. That way the actual mob count is irellevant

Well, one advantage of adding the kills to the actual quest objective is that it ensures that players are interacting with those enemies instead of seeking ways to actively avoid them. On the one hand it forces players to fight no matter what they want to do, but on the other it allows players to approach from whatever angle they choose(fly in, stealth in, walk in, whatever).

By just forcing everyone to the ground Blizz can put trash mobs everywhere without having to really think about it. I mean, sure, it control the way every player approaches the objectives(because they have fewer options), but that also hurts player agency, which isn't necessarily a good thing, IMO.

The entire no-flying thing just reeks of ham-fisted, overcompensation and oversimplification. It's a weak solution, like dumping ketchup all over everything the mask the taste of bland food.

[wing5wong]

And adding a terrible design to a quest is supposed to make it better?


Except that I need to kill an undefined, but probably large, number of useless, inconsequential mobs that I probably don´t want to, in my way to the quest objective.

Yay?


The count is relevant if they aren´t related to the quest.

You not wanting to kill them has nothing to do with their relevance. Are they related to the quest mobs in the zone from a story and environmental perspective, yes - they are. Not every mob can be a named hero mob

Well, one advantage of adding the kills to the actual quest objective is that it ensures that players are interacting with those enemies instead of seeking ways to actively avoid them. On the one hand it forces players to fight no matter what they want to do, but on the other it allows players to approach from whatever angle they choose(fly in, stealth in, walk in, whatever).

By just forcing everyone to the ground Blizz can put trash mobs everywhere without having to really think about it. I mean, sure, it control the way every player approaches the objectives(because they have fewer options), but that also hurts player agency, which isn't necessarily a good thing, IMO.

The entire no-flying thing just reeks of ham-fisted, overcompensation and oversimplification. It's a weak solution, like dumping ketchup all over everything the mask the taste of bland food.

The biggest issue IMO with removing things that are not directly tied to the quest is one relating to how different zones and quest areas 'feel'.
It makes a difference to a quest if you're in the middle of an iron horde encampment, or if you're skirting around a small outpost.

More mobs, more interactive aspects, more options - its better for the game when the quests are more than just kill X. This is where i think WoD did well in terms of quests -sure, they were just 'fill the bar', but you had many options in how to do it. (bolded text - this is what they should be pushing for - flight included or not; the different approaches add replay-ability and interesting options to the quests)

[Dhrizzle]

Well, one advantage of adding the kills to the actual quest objective is that it ensures that players are interacting with those enemies instead of seeking ways to actively avoid them. On the one hand it forces players to fight no matter what they want to do, but on the other it allows players to approach from whatever angle they choose(fly in, stealth in, walk in, whatever).

By just forcing everyone to the ground Blizz can put trash mobs everywhere without having to really think about it. I mean, sure, it control the way every player approaches the objectives(because they have fewer options), but that also hurts player agency, which isn't necessarily a good thing, IMO.

The entire no-flying thing just reeks of ham-fisted, overcompensation and oversimplification. It's a weak solution, like dumping ketchup all over everything the mask the taste of bland food.

The mobs are obstacles between you and your objective. Depending on what class you're playing you may choose to avoid them through stealth or other shenanigans, snipe a few to clear a safe path or just charge in and kill the lot of them. It makes for more interesting choices when the optimal path isn't to mount up and avoid everything that isn't directly related to the quest, and forcing players to kill X mobs by adding them to the objectives doesn't really improve matters.

It's funny you say that having no-flight means Blizz can put mobs wherever they choose without having to think about, I find the opposite to be true. If players are capable of ignoring what is on the ground Blizz have no need to consider the positioning of mobs and can just scatter them willy-nilly.

[Connll]

You not wanting to kill them has nothing to do with their relevance. Are they related to the quest mobs in the zone from a story and environmental perspective, yes - they are. Not every mob can be a named hero mob

Good. You admit that they are irrelevant to the quest progress, and as such, there is no reason to force players to slog thorugh a horde of non-quest-objective trash.

The biggest issue IMO with removing things that are not directly tied to the quest is one relating to how different zones and quest areas 'feel'.
It makes a difference to a quest if you're in the middle of an iron horde encampment, or if you're skirting around a small outpost.

Removing that dragon´s ability to fly which I befirended years ago in Outland, affects (negatively) how " zones and quest areas 'feel'."

More mobs, more interactive aspects, more options - its better for the game when the quests are more than just kill X. This is where i think WoD did well in terms of quests -sure, they were just 'fill the bar', but you had many options in how to do it. (bolded text - this is what they should be pushing for - flight included or not; the different approaches add replay-ability to the quests)

There is no "option" here, if for me to reach the quest-related objectives I am forced to slog through mobs that are not quest related.

[wing5wong]

Good. You admit that they are irrelevant to the quest progress, and as such, there is no reason to force players to slog thorugh a horde of non-quest-objective trash.

irrelevant to the quest progress doesnt make them irrelevant to the quest. If the quest is fight your way through major horde camp, then all the mobs are relevant and add to the experience. The kill X mob aspect jsut makes sure you have killed (arbitrarily) enough mobs for the quest. We can increase the X number to be larger, sure, but it doesnt make the overall quest experience any different.

There is no "option" here, if for me to reach the quest-related objectives I am forced to slog through mobs that are not quest related.

This quest design is exactly what gives you options - interact with items if you dont want to slog through mobs. Use items to defeat mobs. OR just kill them
Flying doesn't change it. If more quests are made this way, flight becomes even less of an issue. The issue comes from 'collect X from Y, who's in the middle of a camp of Z' quests, where flight becomes an issue, because you effectively remove 'Z' from the quest.

[SirCowdog]

Haven't been following every update to it, but last I knew every mob will drop AP and have a chance at dropping one of the legendary class items, with the amount of AP and chance to drop legendaries being increased with harder mobs/instance mobs. Haven't seen anything with actual percentages of numbers, but it's probably something like 10 AP for normal world mobs going up into the thousands on raid mobs, with legendaries being something like maybe 1% for world mobs up to 10-20% on bosses.
One of the reasons Legion has been compared to D3.
(Numbers are not exact or accurate, just ones I made up to show the scaling difference for the mob types)

Sorry I glazed over your post. I'm going to be completely fair and say that what you described doesn't sound nearly as bad as I expected. Mind you, I still think there's a LOT of untapped potential with flying, and I don't think it breaks the game as much as people say it does, but the fact that Blizzard is moving more towards making stuff on the ground worth doing is a good sign.