Vengeance really squishy on live?

[Phoenix19]

Hi there, have a couple of questions;

1) Sigil of Chains, i still see it in guides and also on the talent list here on MMO, is it in or out, im confused.
2) Is anyone else's mastery coming up as a minus figure now on live? Also the number keeps changing, going from -26% to -38% without me changing gear, I dont understand whats going on!

Thanks in advance.

[bewbew]

That really inst valid. It's like saying to a level 90 tank they dont have any heroic Hellfire gear when they are trying tanking Slagmaul.

No, that's like forcing a lvl 90 tank to not pick any talents other than lvl 15 and 30 and be as good at tanking as someone who picked all their defensive stuff.

Your analogy puts two scenarios with completly no relation to one another.

[aikanaro]

Hi there, have a couple of questions;

1) Sigil of Chains, i still see it in guides and also on the talent list here on MMO, is it in or out, im confused.
2) Is anyone else's mastery coming up as a minus figure now on live? Also the number keeps changing, going from -26% to -38% without me changing gear, I dont understand whats going on!

Thanks in advance.

Sigil of chains is a talent and it is situational. The 3rd talent in the tree gives a DPS / threat buff and mixed signals easier to aim while lowering their cool down. It isn't a mandatory skill so they can be either in or out depending on the demonhunter.

The negative mastery is a glitch and only affects the character sheet.

[Ctee]

As I'm sure others have said, we are missing a great deal of talents plus we're no where near as geared as everyone else.

[Deleted]

As I'm sure others have said, we are missing a great deal of talents plus we're no where near as geared as everyone else.

Our talents don't affect our squishiness. Your second point makes no sense, no one is expecting a 710 DH to be as tanky as a 740 Guardian. No one can deny Vengeance is the squishiest tank on live, and I don't see how that would change at 110, though beta players have mixed opinions on that.

[Auxora]

I've healed a few DH tanks in mythics and as long as they are reasonably geared (700+) there were no problems keeping them up. Tbh I personally think pally tanks have seemed squishier since 7.03 than DH tanks to heal. Before doing a few runs with DH tanks I was worried, but now I am pretty sure they'll be fine especially with their talents and artifacts.

[Deleted]

Our talents don't affect our squishiness. Your second point makes no sense, no one is expecting a 710 DH to be as tanky as a 740 Guardian. No one can deny Vengeance is the squishiest tank on live, and I don't see how that would change at 110, though beta players have mixed opinions on that.

4 of the remaining talents do. It might be a good idea to take a look at the talent tree before saying something like this.

iilvl 710 DH doesn't have the legendary ring that a 710 class X might.

[Deleted]

I've healed a few DH tanks in mythics and as long as they are reasonably geared (700+) there were no problems keeping them up. Tbh I personally think pally tanks have seemed squishier since 7.03 than DH tanks to heal. Before doing a few runs with DH tanks I was worried, but now I am pretty sure they'll be fine especially with their talents and artifacts.

700+ isn't what I would call "reasonably geared" for a mythic dungeon, though. You saying a DH needs to be ~30 ilevel overgeared to be comfortably healable says quite the opposite of "they'll be fine". Again, talents don't improve mitigation or avoidance at all, and while artifact traits will give some nice bonuses, all tanks will get similar stuff. 110 content will be tuned around having the traits, so it's not like they make us relatively stronger.

4 of the remaining talents do. It might be a good idea to take a look at the talent tree before saying something like this.

iilvl 710 DH doesn't have the legendary ring that a 710 class X might.

No, they don't. They improve our AM and healing, which is different. As for the legendary ring, I'd say a 710 prot warrior with the ring is just as squishy as a 710 prot warrior without the ring is, outside of ring usage.

[ShasVa]

The apparent lack of resilience, in comparison to other tanks, should decrease once we DHs get to level 110. Perhaps in reality it's the player, not the class, who really matters. If you know what to do, you'll be an excellent DH player.

[Deleted]

One thing to consider too would likely be the T19 set which seems pretty ridiculously powerful to me. You should be able to maintain close to 100% uptime on active mitigation with those and the more frequent Soul Cleaves themselves would also help with making damage intake smoother.

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700+ isn't what I would call "reasonably geared" for a mythic dungeon, though. You saying a DH needs to be ~30 ilevel overgeared to be comfortably healable says quite the opposite of "they'll be fine". Again, talents don't improve mitigation or avoidance at all, and while artifact traits will give some nice bonuses, all tanks will get similar stuff. 110 content will be tuned around having the traits, so it's not like they make us relatively stronger.

No, they don't. They improve our AM and healing, which is different. As for the legendary ring, I'd say a 710 prot warrior with the ring is just as squishy as a 710 prot warrior without the ring is, outside of ring usage.

700+ is "reasonably geared" for most, to be honest. I know it's happened to me many times that I've healed a 710 tank in a mythic dungeon having to spam all my mana pool each pull, thinking that the damage is really high and then when I try tanking a mythic dungeon I feel invulnerable.

[Simulacrum]

...

700+ is "reasonably geared" for most, to be honest. I know it's happened to me many times that I've healed a 710 tank in a mythic dungeon having to spam all my mana pool each pull, thinking that the damage is really high and then when I try tanking a mythic dungeon I feel invulnerable.

Well, I'd categorize "700+" as "wildly overgeared" for mythic 5 mans. That's the gear level at which you need to pull 3 groups at once just to make your healer have to cast heals. That's when, instead of wiping when that retarded hunter in your group spams barrage on everything in range, you just get kind of annoyed and ask him to stop but after the third admonishment you give up and accept that he'll be pulling everything in every room you enter and you don't care enough to replace him because you realize that it actually doesn't really matter anyway. Randoms, man.

Anyway, no tanks should feel squishy doing that content at that gear level. So it's not really a good gauge of whether or not a class is more or less squishy than another. Though I don't really think DHs seem squishy right now, even if they do have issues for the first few seconds of large pulls (on boss pulls it's not a problem thanks to fiery brand) since they have access to no mitigation whatsoever until they generate enough pain to actually use it. Pretty bad design, if you ask me... but that's what we've got to work with.

[Deleted]

Well, I'd categorize "700+" as "wildly overgeared" for mythic 5 mans. That's the gear level at which you need to pull 3 groups at once just to make your healer have to cast heals. That's when, instead of wiping when that retarded hunter in your group spams barrage on everything in range, you just get kind of annoyed and ask him to stop but after the third admonishment you give up and accept that he'll be pulling everything in every room you enter and you don't care enough to replace him because you realize that it actually doesn't really matter anyway. Randoms, man.

Anyway, no tanks should feel squishy doing that content at that gear level. So it's not really a good gauge of whether or not a class is more or less squishy than another. Though I don't really think DHs seem squishy right now, even if they do have issues for the first few seconds of large pulls (on boss pulls it's not a problem thanks to fiery brand) since they have access to no mitigation whatsoever until they generate enough pain to actually use it. Pretty bad design, if you ask me... but that's what we've got to work with.

You're vastly overestimating your average mythic dungeon PUG tank. At 720 ilvl they have less survivability than a ilvl 660 tank played properly.

It's also why it's a waste of time to draw conclusions. Considering how a ilvl 715 paladin got constantly dunked for 75% of his hp and I ran OOM on every pull despite him pulling 1 pack at a time, I'd otherwise have to consider prot paladin very squishy. Except then I played in a dungeon where the similarly geared prot paladin didn't even need to be healed except like once every 10s.

[Pooti]

I tanked Mythic dungeons on my DH at about 700 ilvl using invasion gear, healed by a friend using a boosted resto shaman at about 685 ilvl. Had 1 wipe after running all the Mythics. Now trying to heal a pug DH tank, was another story. He was 710 ilvl roughly ( guessing by health pool ) and was near impossible to keep alive. Checking Skada logs he had about a 12% uptime on Demon Spikes. That will make you squishy. Demon spikes should be easily at 50% uptime, and that is banking one charge for an "oh-shit" situation. Watch your souls and heal yourself between Demon Spikes. The problem I think is people are trying to use Demon Spikes simply reactively, and that will make you very hard to heal. You should never have 2 charges of DS banked while actively tanking, and it should be the first button to push once you have the pain.

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Well, I'd categorize "700+" as "wildly overgeared" for mythic 5 mans. That's the gear level at which you need to pull 3 groups at once just to make your healer have to cast heals. That's when, instead of wiping when that retarded hunter in your group spams barrage on everything in range, you just get kind of annoyed and ask him to stop but after the third admonishment you give up and accept that he'll be pulling everything in every room you enter and you don't care enough to replace him because you realize that it actually doesn't really matter anyway. Randoms, man.

Anyway, no tanks should feel squishy doing that content at that gear level. So it's not really a good gauge of whether or not a class is more or less squishy than another. Though I don't really think DHs seem squishy right now, even if they do have issues for the first few seconds of large pulls (on boss pulls it's not a problem thanks to fiery brand) since they have access to no mitigation whatsoever until they generate enough pain to actually use it. Pretty bad design, if you ask me... but that's what we've got to work with.

I would like to see Demonic Leap generate pain to solve the mitigation problems on pulling a group.

[Simulacrum]

I would like to see Demonic Leap generate pain to solve the mitigation problems on pulling a group.

Well, it certainly would be nice to have it generate like 20 pain, at least when it hit something, to let us activate demon spikes right away.

Or have sigil of flame generate 20 pain since we usually cast that pre-pull anyway. Would make it feel less mediocre to use mid-fight as well.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Currently my dh is around 690 Ilvl. I tried to do some mythic dungeons just to see how it played and I get absolutely destroyed. I main tanking so I'd say I'm playing it correct when it comes to active mitigation but my healers have to spam to keep me alive and it doesn't matter whether my AM is up or not my health just vanishes. Is it just me or are they really squishy on live right now?

More gear helps of course, and gear choices too. I played with tanking with the DPS heirloom trinket and did ok, but my survivability is better with the Purified Shard. Until we get more talents and artifact, I find it helps to have the extra defensive CD.

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I tanked Mythic dungeons on my DH at about 700 ilvl using invasion gear, healed by a friend using a boosted resto shaman at about 685 ilvl. Had 1 wipe after running all the Mythics. Now trying to heal a pug DH tank, was another story. He was 710 ilvl roughly ( guessing by health pool ) and was near impossible to keep alive. Checking Skada logs he had about a 12% uptime on Demon Spikes. That will make you squishy. Demon spikes should be easily at 50% uptime, and that is banking one charge for an "oh-shit" situation. Watch your souls and heal yourself between Demon Spikes. The problem I think is people are trying to use Demon Spikes simply reactively, and that will make you very hard to heal. You should never have 2 charges of DS banked while actively tanking, and it should be the first button to push once you have the pain.

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I would like to see Demonic Leap generate pain to solve the mitigation problems on pulling a group.

I got talked into tanking mythics straight out of the starter zone, and it was a mess. We had fun, but only because it was a guild group and laughed off wipes.

Since then I've geared up with invasions and practiced my rotation. Pugged a few more mythics and had it go ok. Died once when I got clumsy pulling all those fire elemental trash in Bloodmaul, but that was me screwing up not the spec. I did spec and gear for survivability, but even so my DPS was solid for my gear level.

[Pooti]

After my first experience tanking DH I made a Weakaura to keep track of DS. I like to keep 1 stack basically banked, refreshing when it is about 2 sec from refreshing charge #2. It leaves me with about 2 seconds of no stacks, which feels just fine for dungeon tanking. I also made a pain bar that changes color at 20 pain and 60 pain, so that I only need to watch the color and not the number, although it does show the number also. I do miss having a "shield wall" type ability, but since my former DK main lost it also, it wasn't deal breaking.

[Lolsteak]

Well, it certainly would be nice to have it generate like 20 pain, at least when it hit something, to let us activate demon spikes right away.

Or have sigil of flame generate 20 pain since we usually cast that pre-pull anyway. Would make it feel less mediocre to use mid-fight as well.

Leap could also activate spikes for 1-2 seconds after use, That would help mitigate the instagibbing when you jump into a pack.

You're turning into a demon during the leap anyway so I don't see a problem with that happening, 1-2 seconds wouldn't be overpowered either.

[Pooti]

Leap could also activate spikes for 1-2 seconds after use, That would help mitigate the instagibbing when you jump into a pack.

You're turning into a demon during the leap anyway so I don't see a problem with that happening, 1-2 seconds wouldn't be overpowered either.

That could work, but I would worry that it would turn leap into a rotational mitigation ability and not a movement utility. Just look at what havoc has with Fel Rush. Tacking on some pain still wouldn't make it worth wasting the movement mid fight, as pain gen isn't really an issue then.

[Deleted]

That could work, but I would worry that it would turn leap into a rotational mitigation ability and not a movement utility. Just look at what havoc has with Fel Rush. Tacking on some pain still wouldn't make it worth wasting the movement mid fight, as pain gen isn't really an issue then.

Infernal Strike is already a rotational (dps) ability since it is off-GCD in raids so giving it defensive utility eventually wasted with 4set (T19) and/or high haste levels since you'd cap effective uptime on spikes.

[Pooti]

Infernal Strike is already a rotational (dps) ability since it is off-GCD in raids so giving it defensive utility eventually wasted with 4set (T19) and/or high haste levels since you'd cap effective uptime on spikes.

Yes but, in my opinion, as a tank since it is strictly a dps improvement I consider it optional and often better saved for mobility. With mitigation baked in it would make it that much less rotationally optional.