No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Eapoe]

Sorry I glazed over your post. I'm going to be completely fair and say that what you described doesn't sound nearly as bad as I expected. Mind you, I still think there's a LOT of untapped potential with flying, and I don't think it breaks the game as much as people say it does, but the fact that Blizzard is moving more towards making stuff on the ground worth doing is a good sign.

Not a problem. Something I forgot though is that there is a weekly cap on how much you earn, and that will be increased as the xpac continues. The collecting of that cap per week is still high enough that a lot of people are upset and calling this an alt unfriendly xpac as they will not be able to maintain alts as easily as a main character. I myself usually maintain about 5 at an ilvl just over LFR difficulty and will probably only be doing 1 depending on how the acquisition of AP goes. When you take into account the amount you need for 1 point in the artifact and add 2 specs, if you want to maintain all 3, there is a lot of work going into 1 character in Legion. No pros or cons to that arguement yet as we'll have to wait and see how things go and are adjusted.
While I agree that they can expand on flight based gameplay, I still think it would be pretty hard for an MMORPG to do so without making part of the game a flight sim or taking the things people dislike from the ground and putting it in the air. For the last few xpacs it has been unnecessary to play the game to its full potential, but I've never been against it being in the game, and would like to see Blizzard be able to do something to make everyone happy. I just have no idea what that would be.

[rebecca191]

If they want to make everyone happy, allowing flying right away or very early on in most of the zones except the one zone that is entirely for max level characters would be a start..... I personally think it's stupid to restrict it anywhere, especially since WotLK was the high point of the game in subs and frequently wins as the most popular expac in polls (and I'm not saying flying was the reason for that, just that it obviously was not hurting it!) and it had very few flight restrictions, the only restriction was no flying from 70-77 until halfway through expac when alts could fly at 70, but if it was just Suramar that was no flying I could probably live with it and very slowly work through the objectives while spending more time in other zones doing archeology and various achievements like the pet battle ones.

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irrelevant to the quest progress doesnt make them irrelevant to the quest. If the quest is fight your way through major horde camp, then all the mobs are relevant and add to the experience. The kill X mob aspect jsut makes sure you have killed (arbitrarily) enough mobs for the quest. We can increase the X number to be larger, sure, but it doesnt make the overall quest experience any different.



This quest design is exactly what gives you options - interact with items if you dont want to slog through mobs. Use items to defeat mobs. OR just kill them
Flying doesn't change it. If more quests are made this way, flight becomes even less of an issue. The issue comes from 'collect X from Y, who's in the middle of a camp of Z' quests, where flight becomes an issue, because you effectively remove 'Z' from the quest.

Ultimately, this is a difference in opinion because I feel forcing players to deal with these mobs makes the game worse. In WotLK you could skip basically anything you didn't need for the quest (unless it was just killing a couple of mobs directly guarding what you needed to pick up) and I don't think it hurt the game at all. Cataclysm had some daily quests where you could fly (I think mostly just the outdoor quests in Hyjal during Firelands patch) and some where you couldn't (the ones inside the actual Firelands area) and I don't think the indoor ones were the slightest bit better. I mean, does anyone here seriously think out of the two sets of quests the indoor ones were better, solely or primarily due to lack of flight? once I got everything I wanted I totally stopped doing that set and just did outdoor ones for gold. And that was back when I basically had unlimited free time and played in a top 50 US guild. Now my play time is much more limited. I'm not asking to be able to kill every mythic raid boss with my limited play time, but I'm also not willing to play a game where I log on for an hour or two and half or more of that time is taken up by slow travel and killing mobs that don't contribute to anything I am working on in the game.

[Mafic]

I either have to pull them and kill them, or run through and risk daze. When I spend more time on that than the actual quest, to me that is a problem. When it is literally faster to die than clear a bunch of excess mobs not part of the quest, to me that is a problem. If that is okay game design to you, and you don't mind it, fine. But for me it is a problem that makes the game significantly less fun.

I wouldn't mind the HP if not for freaking daze. So it is not that I want the HP nerfed so much as a better way to avoid non quest mobs with huge HP pools. While I will eventually have to do the zone to get flying, by the time flying is available, better gear will be more easily obtainable which will make it at least quicker.

They can remove the daze by simply reducing the NPC leeshing so griefers can't run long trains on other players.

[SirCowdog]

Not a problem. Something I forgot though is that there is a weekly cap on how much you earn and that will be increased as the xpac continues.

I was under the impression that it was more of a soft cap on AP rather than a hard cap. It simply takes a retarded amount of AP the higher you go, and the longer the expansion goes on, the more you can earn via Artifact Research.

While I agree that they can expand on flight based gameplay, I still think it would be pretty hard for an MMORPG to do so without making part of the game a flight sim or taking the things people dislike from the ground and putting it in the air. For the last few xpacs it has been unnecessary to play the game to its full potential, but I've never been against it being in the game, and would like to see Blizzard be able to do something to make everyone happy. I just have no idea what that would be.

I made a post in another thread about converting all mounts to use the vehicle system. This could open up a LOT of options for gameplay involving not just flying mounts, but all manner of different mounts. Part of the problem is that the mechanics of both ground and air mounts has not changed in any fundamental way since they were introduced. The only thing is speed, and that's far too limiting. But by using vehicle-based mounts with specific powers or abilities, they could create an almost metroid-vania style unlock of new areas and gameplay.

Obviously that's not something that would make it into Legion, but potentially the next expansion. We've already seen that Blizzard is trying to add new things to the open world with treasures and jump puzzles, as well as novelty mechanics like grappling hooks. I don't see why they couldn't expand on that by using mounts.

[Dormie]

Blizz you and I know that no flight is better for the game. Keep up the good fight.

[Mafic]

I was under the impression that it was more of a soft cap on AP rather than a hard cap. It simply takes a retarded amount of AP the higher you go, and the longer the expansion goes on, the more you can earn via Artifact Research.
.

By the time you are able to access artifact research it is going to be winter in the northern hemisphere. Yeah don't count on players sticking around for such a long grind.

[Connll]

irrelevant to the quest progress doesnt make them irrelevant to the quest.

...

Hate is love, War is peace, Ignorance is strength.

This quest design is exactly what gives you options - interact with items if you dont want to slog through mobs. Use items to defeat mobs. OR just kill them

Exactly how being forced to wade through a horde of NON-quest related mobs will help you to advance the quest? Thats the point we are discussing.

[Eapoe]

I was under the impression that it was more of a soft cap on AP rather than a hard cap. It simply takes a retarded amount of AP the higher you go, and the longer the expansion goes on, the more you can earn via Artifact Research.





I made a post in another thread about converting all mounts to use the vehicle system. This could open up a LOT of options for gameplay involving not just flying mounts, but all manner of different mounts. Part of the problem is that the mechanics of both ground and air mounts has not changed in any fundamental way since they were introduced. The only thing is speed, and that's far too limiting. But by using vehicle-based mounts with specific powers or abilities, they could create an almost metroid-vania style unlock of new areas and gameplay.

Obviously that's not something that would make it into Legion, but potentially the next expansion. We've already seen that Blizzard is trying to add new things to the open world with treasures and jump puzzles, as well as novelty mechanics like grappling hooks. I don't see why they couldn't expand on that by using mounts.

Yeah, checked with some other people, no hard cap on AP per week. They likened it to a soft cap because later on the points are very high in cost.

[Vestig3]

Could change the title to "No Flying till 7.2 confirmed" to atleast have people take a rest from this thread haha.

[SirCowdog]

By the time you are able to access artifact research it is going to be winter in the northern hemisphere. Yeah don't count on players sticking around for such a long grind.

I wouldn't be so quick to underestimate people's willingness to grind. Look at D3. Each time a new season starts players are Paragon Level 500+ in the first week. A LOT depends on the core gameplay loop of world quests, order hall missions, and Mythic+, since those are the 'randomized' parts of the grind. We've ALL said that if the content is good enough it won't matter if we fly or not, and I think that the open world in Legion isn't QUITE there yet.

Flight could be the tipping point in making it tolerable enough in that regard, but we won't really know until the "New and Shiny" effect wears off a couple months after launch. The content drought is going to have too much of a retarding effect on any assessment until then.

[rebecca191]

I wouldn't be so quick to underestimate people's willingness to grind. Look at D3. Each time a new season starts players are Paragon Level 500+ in the first week. A LOT depends on the core gameplay loop of world quests, order hall missions, and Mythic+, since those are the 'randomized' parts of the grind. We've ALL said that if the content is good enough it won't matter if we fly or not, and I think that the open world in Legion isn't QUITE there yet.

Flight could be the tipping point in making it tolerable enough in that regard, but we won't really know until the "New and Shiny" effect wears off a couple months after launch. The content drought is going to have too much of a retarding effect on any assessment until then.

Most of the world quests that popped up on my map were go back to leveling areas and kill mobs that you killed for quests while leveling. There was one where you get 900g if you kill a particular world boss.

[Connll]

noobody cares about flying lol

Of course not.

Thats why you won´t find discussion threads spanning over 420 pages, kept active for a period of several months and counting.

[Elim Garak]

dude cool story look at vanilla server thread lol, so the probality and importance of flying is several time less then vanilla servers happening

rekt

cept vanilla servers are an insurmountable negative-profit task for Blizzard and flying is just a switch that costs nothing.

rekt

[wing5wong]

...

Hate is love, War is peace, Ignorance is strength.




Exactly how being forced to wade through a horde of NON-quest related mobs will help you to advance the quest? Thats the point we are discussing.

You're too fixated on the literal quest text. There is more to the game than blindly following the quest text.

[Connll]

You're too fixated on the literal quest text. There is more to the game than blindly following the quest text.

And you are too fixated on saying anything, no matter how false or ludicrous, in order to pretend no-flight is not bad for the game.

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dude cool story look at vanilla server thread lol, so the probality and importance of flying is several time less then vanilla servers happening

rekt

Can someone bring a murloc here so at least someone understands that gibberish?

[wing5wong]

And you are too fixated on saying anything, no matter how false or ludicrous, in order to pretend no-flight is not bad for the game.

I said flight is bad for the current implementation, not that it has to be bad forever. Unless you think it's ludicrous to consider a change in quest progress tracking to make it a better option to allow flight?

[Connll]

Unless you think it's ludicrous to consider a change in quest progress tracking to make it a better option to allow flight?

And "quest progress tracking" relates to flight... how?

[wing5wong]

And "quest progress tracking" relates to flight... how?

The way you interact with quests.

As i said before, its an issue with flying because it affects quests

The issue comes from 'collect X from Y, who's in the middle of a camp of Z' quests, where flight becomes an issue, because you effectively remove 'Z' from the quest.

[Connll]

The way you interact with quests.

As i said before, its an issue with flying because it affects quests

False: The only thing removed is Flight.

"Z", in this case, might be engaged if I want to.

[Hexxidecimal]

False: The only thing removed is Flight.

"Z", in this case, might be engaged if I want to.

And people can bike to work if they want to but don't because it's a pain in the ass. It's better for them physically (assuming they don't live too far from work of course). But most don't. At heart most people are opportunists. They will simply take the easiest way, even if that way isn't what was "intended".

btw at this point I am not arguing for or against flight anymore. That particular conversation to me has been beaten to death. Just pointing out that this behavioral tendency is a thing and that to have an honest discussion about it that it should be recognized yeah.

Here is the issue. Blizz makes a quest, the quests intention is to make you engage with Z to get Y, but if you can bypass Z, most will. This circumvents Blizz's "design" vision. Wether or not that vision is crap and can be improved upon is another matter. However lets not argue the fact that this is what Blizz WANT'S us to do, and they realize that most WON'T given the option. So inferring that the option to fly won't affect quest content is disingenuous. The real question is A. Should blizzard take away the options simply because they don't like it? Is that a good enough reason?