Blizzard realised that addons have to much influence on raiding

[Noxina]

Source?

Always good to leave a source

I think stuff like Tellmewhen and its many copies should be destroyed.

Thats just me though

Whats the problem with UI AddOns that simply makes things clearer? It doesn't show anything that you can't see allready, it just makes it easier.

In other words, if you are against TellMeWhen, you are kinda against all UI improving addons. I hope you're playing with the original WoW UI? Or are you just a hypocrit?

[ehxy]

Let's put things into perspective here.

ADDON: GTFO
DOWNLOADS: 12,763,697

That's on curse alone.

So either 12.7 million people suck or blizzard's telegraph/mechanics system sucks.

[ComputerNerd]

you cant know it for sure - this is the very first time they officialy admit the issue - we dont know how far they will go with this in future - just because now they are ok with it, it doesnt mean this wont hange in 1-2 years

Because they don't outright say that it is bad, only in encounters.
Hence why they make specific mentions of addons for outdoor content they don't want to break.
That IS specific targeting.

AVR was broken by simply breaking or removing something.
This is something blizzard are selectively limiting access to.
Very different from their usual approach on API's, all or nothing.
Change it for everyone or remove it entirely.

Let's put things into perspective here.

ADDON: GTFO
DOWNLOADS: 12,763,697

That's on curse alone.

So either 12.7 million people suck or blizzard's telegraph/mechanics system sucks.

Which is why blizzard said they don't intend to break anything alerting you about auras.
Sounds are less hardware reliant, but still very hit or miss given the rather poor control we have over the in-game sounds at present.
Graphical effects are very hardware dependant.

[Dracodraco]

An important advantage from addons was to get the right order of marks. The ideal way to do it appears to be to have the back ones explode first in order to not be knocked back from the back ones to the front with the debuff after having soaked the front ones, or at least not have a front one be exactly in succession with the one right behind it. The soaking of the marks by assigning people to groups helped with addons, though it's not anything critical compared to the marking.

I'm thinking now it might have worked if all 4 were in the same horizontal line, or at least some kind of arc, but not sure if there is space.

Without addons it would be pretty hard core because people would have to check at cast time the remaining time on own debuffs.

That is 100% irrelevant and we never understood why people needed it. The front marks just have to get flung towards the middle of the room, rather than straight back - here's a super crude paint picture to demonstrate what I mean:

https://gyazo.com/0110b480115684dcb8b42ce4aa18546b

(blue circle is roughly the middle where we'd go prior to marks so everyone can make it to their assigned mark in time).

That's not saying it wouldn't make it easier/more consistent if you know which order the marks blow up in for the *healers*, because it means that they can figure out "ok, group 4 is going to be hit last every time so they'll have the least time to get healed up before the infernal burst AOE comes, make sure we've got shields on them as a priority and maybe fill it with immortality-warlocks/immunity mages", and "group 1 is hit first so just let hots take care of them". But that's the only real advantage I can see to it, in all honesty.

But I'm just saying, marks were very easy to handle with the *bare* necessities in terms of addon support; as long as each debuff got a mark so we could assign a spot to go to, 49 times out of 50, we wouldn't be dying because of "too few people" were on a group (unless someone was dead), and we wouldn't get punted into other groups and die from that *ever* unless it was a personal fuckup.

There's an argument to be made that it might be worse having "fluid" groups assigned, because that means your raiders have to react to a new position in a second - you've already got 4 people with debuffs doing this, do we really need to add more randomness to positioning when the chance of a bad combo happening is so low? I'd say not really.

[ContentsMayVary]

Let's put things into perspective here.

ADDON: GTFO
DOWNLOADS: 12,763,697

That's on curse alone.

So either 12.7 million people suck or blizzard's telegraph/mechanics system sucks.

Obviously those are not the only possible answers. Another answer could be "Blizzard's telegraph/mechanics system is good, but it can be improved by adding a sonic component"

[Deleted]

I don't see why the would. I think it's perfectly okay to have an addon tell you that there are players within a certain range of you. I disliked the radar on DBM because not only would it tell you if there were any players within a range of you, but it would also show you exactly what their position was so you knew how to run away from them. I think that's silly. It should either be green or red. Are there any players within 8 yards of me? If yes: then red. If no: then green. None of this radar bullshit though.

You can probably triangulate a spot by using 3 players.

[Thage]

So in interview with Slootbag Watcher confirmed that addons have to much impact on raiding and they work on way to reduce it - so i guess raiding will soon be much harder for many many people

clearly exorsus raid tools and its positioning help was too much for them and will break it soon tm.

The most popular one, DeadlyBossMods, is fine; it's the ones that automate placement by telling you where to go (rather than DBM's simple "Get out of the fire" warning) that the devs want to break. And as long as DBM still works, that's still going to be a significant advantage in raiding. The other stuff is just the result of player complacency.

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously those are not the only possible answers. Another answer could be "Blizzard's telegraph/mechanics system is good, but it can be improved by adding a sonic component"

Blizzard's telegraph system is pretty sloppy. Games like TERA, FFXIV, and Guild Wars 2 all have very neat telegraph UIs; WoW's telegraphs vary from "shitload of floating dirt" to "barely-present purple outline."

[mhdoe]

I agree any addon that uses radar as he called it or sets up and tells you where to be during a boss fight takes half of the effort of the fight out right from the start. Glad to hear they are breaking those kinds of addons.

[Deleted]

https://gyazo.com/0110b480115684dcb8b42ce4aa18546b

That's a good way to do it, harder of course. The main hellish thing I can see with this mechanic and lack of addons is not having the raid marks at all indeed. People would literally have to decide within 3 seconds where exactly to go to and the best I can think of right now is to have some kind of alphabetical list or raid group list to make it easy for them.

Blizzard could make a nicer mechanic for the lack of addons if they just had 4 different graphics for the debuffs on each character. If they had different colors consistently based on duration it would be even possible to never use addons.

[Dracodraco]

That's a good way to do it, harder of course. The main hellish thing I can see with this mechanic and lack of addons is not having the raid marks at all indeed. People would literally have to decide within 3 seconds where exactly to go to and the best I can think of right now is to have some kind of alphabetical list or raid group list to make it easy for them.

Blizzard could make a nicer mechanic for the lack of addons if they just had 4 different graphics for the debuffs on each character. If they had different colors consistently based on duration it would be even possible to never use addons.

Lets be fair - marking people with debuffs is never going to go away. That's been a thing since Vanilla. There's a difference between giving a person a mark that corresponds to a world marker they're supposed to stand on, and building an interactive radar with graphics showing where it's safe to stand like ERT/Methods/DBM's radars do. Remember, after they removed AVR back in WOTLK, they actually gave us more world markers - we used to only have... I want to say 4?, so that's clearly something they're okay with us using for a reference point.

That said, I don't see how it's any harder being punted diagonally rather than straight back. It even lowers your dps downtime as a melee, because you aren't flying as far out of range <.<. I'd say it's actually *easier*. What *WOULD* be harder is having to react to randomly being assigned a new group once every five pulls because the addon tried redistributing people.

[ehxy]

Obviously those are not the only possible answers. Another answer could be "Blizzard's telegraph/mechanics system is good, but it can be improved by adding a sonic component"

Yes of course if you want to couch it in the Dr. Phil speak by so means. An audio component would help as it has done wonders for overwatch. Too bad you see only 10% of that in wow.

I actually took the sounds for limit break, menu okay, confirm, back from final fantasy and use them as my audio queues for ready/completion skills/spells/timers.

[MattEffect]

Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/

Anywayyyy

I completely agree with this decision and think it is a major step back towards creating more difficult encounters.

We're talking about fights that use an addon to trivialize a single mechanic. In what world does this effect create less difficult encounters? The mechanic is difficult BEFORE the addon is created, afterwards it is simplified. Removing the ability to create the addon means the mechanic remains difficult and that your raid has to combat it in other manners.

[Usagi Senshi]

awwww, you mad someone using a mod is better at DPS than you are???

If you need a dps rotation add-on with the current class designs (which are some of the easiest in all MMOs mind you), then I really don't know what to tell you.

The most popular one, DeadlyBossMods, is fine; it's the ones that automate placement by telling you where to go (rather than DBM's simple "Get out of the fire" warning) that the devs want to break. And as long as DBM still works, that's still going to be a significant advantage in raiding. The other stuff is just the result of player complacency.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard's telegraph system is pretty sloppy. Games like TERA, FFXIV, and Guild Wars 2 all have very neat telegraph UIs; WoW's telegraphs vary from "shitload of floating dirt" to "barely-present purple outline."

Yup, they keep trying to be cute making unique looking spells that are much harder to see coming/dodge on the ground compared to the much cleaner lights and laser lines solution I prefer in TERA and FFXIV.

[kamuimac]

How do you think it got that far? Because we used addons on mechanics we didn't need to to trivialize those. Blizzard had to up the ante to offer a challenge.

they didnt had to though- they could realise that its pointles arms race - maybe if they did we wouldnt need 4 raid dififculties only 2 would be enough. designing game around 1 % of its playerbase is in fact failed game design

they are although the ones who can quite easily defuse it quickly if they wanted- all they need to do is ban all dbms/weak auras/ tell me when / timers and all their clones etc etc from game and then remove mythic dififculty - all problems solved since without army of addons shitton of what are now "mythic raiders' who spend months on mythic progress with all those aviable in game woudl spend month progressing hc if they indeed depend so much on them

[Holofernes]

Are u sure? the difficulty in mark of the legion was not the guy with the mark getting there (well exept he got first mark and was idling at the wrong side of the platform, but nobody does that ), the problem is assigning the soakers for the explosion. But this has nothing to do with postion data for player and other units. Its about an on the fly assignment of 20 people to go to a position when it is totally random who gets what postion. No human raidleader, not even on speed could do that kind of stuff via voicecom. So they made an algortihm and it shouted "run to mark xy" and it was ok. But mark of the legion is an example that couldnt be handled without addons properly (on the fly assignment of 20 people based on who gets what debuff, and if one person is not on the postion he is assigned to, 4 people die), and has nothing to do with the 7.1 changes.

- - - Updated - - -

If you need a dps rotation add-on with the current class designs (which are some of the easiest in all MMOs mind you), then I really don't know what to tell you.



Yup, they keep trying to be cute making unique looking spells that are much harder to see coming/dodge on the ground compared to the much cleaner lights and laser lines solution I prefer in TERA and FFXIV.

i am not sure, i tried to use those "rotationhelpers" too, but for me they were to slow, aka whenever something lit up on them, i would have already hit the key, so they were only telling me that i hit the right key like quarter a second before. Its like driving my dads car, its a american chevrolet something suv, and it has a green light that says "shift up" or "shift down", and it always start to blink like 2 seconds after i have already shifted.

[Dracodraco]

Are u sure? the difficulty in mark of the legion was not the guy with the mark getting there (well exept he got first mark and was idling at the wrong side of the platform, but nobody does that ), the problem is assigning the soakers for the explosion. But this has nothing to do with postion data for player and other units. Its about an on the fly assignment of 20 people to go to a position when it is totally random who gets what postion. No human raidleader, not even on speed could do that kind of stuff via voicecom. So they made an algortihm and it shouted "run to mark xy" and it was ok. But mark of the legion is an example that couldnt be handled without addons properly (on the fly assignment of 20 people based on who gets what debuff, and if one person is not on the postion he is assigned to, 4 people die), and has nothing to do with the 7.1 changes.

Mate I've already explained once that for those of us who did the boss pre-nerf, we didn't have access to an addon/WA that did what you're describing because we got there so early, unless your guild had someone build one that was kept internal. Granted, that were guilds that HAD that kind of WA early exactly DUE to having a person make it for them, but they kept it internally - my guild isn't even in the top 100, and we were a month into farm before a WA doing the "on the fly assigning" started circulating.

And it was totally fine. You had one unlucky pull every other evening that couldn't be avoided, which was dumb (but it was even more dumb that they let you shave 50M hp off of Archimonde by having 4 battle resses available to constantly skip the source), but you make it sound like the mark's difficulty was trying to get enough people in each camp. As you say yourself; No raid leader could possibly do this on the fly (not to mention no person would be able to react in time if it happened to be the first mark that got screwed), so we just... Didn't. Nobody dipped low with 5 soakers. People dipped super low with 4. You *barely* survived with 3. But it was all fine; the disc knowing what group got a ton of marks could just throw shields on the 3 people remaining in the group (EG - back left had 3 marks. Disc throws shields on the 2x unmarked and the 1x mark that corresponds to back left from group 3, because we have group 3 assigned to back-left mark), which made it fairly fine.

The only reason you'd get killed was a personal fuckup (wrong place with the mark, get punted into another mark etc) or the rare occasion that 4 people from the same group got a mark.

You're making this out to be a bigger issue than it actually *was* during progress. Would we have used the extra help if we had it available? Of fucking course. We're not stupid. We don't go in without a radar for wrought just because "eh, we should be able to handle this fine by just making sure everyones spread". But it wasn't an option, and it really wasn't a big deal.

[Deleted]

Mate I've already explained once that for those of us who did the boss pre-nerf, we didn't have access to an addon/WA that did what you're describing because we got there so early, unless your guild had someone build one that was kept internal. Granted, that were guilds that HAD that kind of WA early exactly DUE to having a person make it for them, but they kept it internally - my guild isn't even in the top 100, and we were a month into farm before a WA doing the "on the fly assigning" started circulating.

And it was totally fine. You had one unlucky pull every other evening that couldn't be avoided, which was dumb (but it was even more dumb that they let you shave 50M hp off of Archimonde by having 4 battle resses available to constantly skip the source), but you make it sound like the mark's difficulty was trying to get enough people in each camp. As you say yourself; No raid leader could possibly do this on the fly (not to mention no person would be able to react in time if it happened to be the first mark that got screwed), so we just... Didn't. Nobody dipped low with 5 soakers. People dipped super low with 4. You *barely* survived with 3. But it was all fine; the disc knowing what group got a ton of marks could just throw shields on the 3 people remaining in the group (EG - back left had 3 marks. Disc throws shields on the 2x unmarked and the 1x mark that corresponds to back left from group 3, because we have group 3 assigned to back-left mark), which made it fairly fine.

The only reason you'd get killed was a personal fuckup (wrong place with the mark, get punted into another mark etc) or the rare occasion that 4 people from the same group got a mark.

You're making this out to be a bigger issue than it actually *was* during progress. Would we have used the extra help if we had it available? Of fucking course. We're not stupid. We don't go in without a radar for wrought just because "eh, we should be able to handle this fine by just making sure everyones spread". But it wasn't an option, and it really wasn't a big deal.

Marks inst that hard of mechanic to execute( wrought is harder without any kind of rader,then marks is without wa/Addon for it). Sure marks is impossible to make groups up on fly and asign soakers and possistions in such short time but thats now how youre suposed to handle it if was so the duration wouldve been longer. But if you make group 1always go to melee left, 4 to back and such its not really that hard to deal with.
those kind of mechanics actully force your raid group to come up with more unique strats to handle it which are good imo.

[Nahela]

or, people will know have to spend a bit of time learning the mechanics and spells of a boss fight before trying to kill it instead of following arrows or walk to huge cicles on the ground saying "stand here!"

This just shows ignorance of the issue. Fights like Kromog/Kormrok exist because addon functionality allows it and vice versa. I can tell you though that if you put a Kromog/Kormrok style mechanic in Legion with zero way for addons to interact with them, you'd be able to count on your hands the number of guilds that would ever kill it on Mythic. Of course, pretty much no one's arguing that mechanics and addon functionality like that should go.

Range Radar exists because the game has historically had no concrete way to relay precise visual information about short distances to the player.

People saying "addons have made encounters too easy" either aren't raiding at the top level or simply don't understand the relationship between addons and encounter design. Until Blizzard starts consistently making the visual language of boss encounters clearer, this change is going to result in easier bosses, not harder.

EDIT: I don't understand the argument about Mark of the Legion at all though. That mechanic is trivial in terms of organization to begin with. The only organization needed is already built into the game's default functionality.

[Deja Thoris]

Let's put things into perspective here.

ADDON: GTFO
DOWNLOADS: 12,763,697

That's on curse alone.

So either 12.7 million people suck or blizzard's telegraph/mechanics system sucks.

Each time its updated it's a download. I'm not saying they aren't important addons but your metric is waaaaaaaay off.

[MrExcelion]

Random side note: does breaking UnitPosition() help with server performance at all? I guess people don't know what goes on behind the scenes at all but just thought I'd inquire