More women should freeze their eggs and focus on their careers.

[Deleted]

You still haven't clarified your position, which can't be that good if you need to put down the opposition first.

Youth/fertility, maternal empathy

vs

Status/resources, paternal dominance

Edit: I realised that was a bit short, but I can't be bothered to write a huge post about it so here's the TLDR:

We are primates

"Behavioral differentiation of male and female primates involves more than just mating behavior. Males are usually larger and physically dominant over females. Extreme sexual dimorphism is particularly characteristic of the semi-terrestrial monkeys and the great apes. The manner in which male and female children are socialized often differs. Following infancy, age-based play groups are usually the primary socializing group for males. These juvenile male cohorts often spend much of their time on the fringes of the troop territory in active physical play. For example, nearly half of the waking hours of young male gorillas are spent in rough play. This is comparable to the amount of time human children play if given the opportunity. For most non-human primates, play is critical for developing social bonds and social skills. Young female monkeys and apes are more often socialized in the safer areas of the community territory by their mothers and other older female relatives. Their play is usually less rough and focuses more on developing parenting skills and social ties among the females with whom they usually spend their lives. As adults, male primates are more likely to leave the community to join roaming bachelor groups and eventually join other communities."

[Deleted]

Well atleast the world is saved from my reproductive capabilities so we are not doomed yet!

[Halyon]

snip

Rough play was likened to human children in general. Anyho...those factors are general things, not definate and set in stone. There are many men with solid mother instincts, many women who want to focus on careers and can't be bothered with children...so how exactly are we 'supressing' biology when people do what they want to do?

[Veftala]

Crazy title A family always had a time to give birth and raise a child, you just need to believe in that

[Deleted]

Rough play was likened to human children in general. Anyho...those factors are general things, not definate and set in stone. There are many men with solid mother instincts, many women who want to focus on careers and can't be bothered with children...so how exactly are we 'supressing' biology when people do what they want to do?

Wait, what?

[Halyon]

Wait, what?

Sorry, how was that difficult to understand? Obviously men can't give birth, but there are many men who want to dote and 'mother' on kids... There are male caretakers in kindergardens, hospitals etc...

[Deleted]

Sorry, how was that difficult to understand? Obviously men can't give birth, but there are many men who want to dote and 'mother' on kids... There are male caretakers in kindergardens, hospitals etc...

I don't think there's many men who want to 'dote and mother' the kids. Sure there's the odd dad out there whose overjoyed being a stay-at-home parent but it's not something I hear or see around me. A fair amount of guys have great parental qualities and some even what people consider more maternal ones but I think much more than that is a bit of a stretch tbh.

[Kraenen]

n
If you believe that the person has certain character traits just because they are a certain sex, then you are treating them differently.



Also, read the thread title finally, buddy!

If I go on a blind date with a woman, I'm expecting her to be several inches shorter than me. It's just probability and expectations.

[Halyon]

I don't think there's many men who want to 'dote and mother' the kids. Sure there's the odd dad out there whose overjoyed being a stay-at-home parent but it's not something I hear or see around me. A fair amount of guys have great parental qualities and some even what people consider more maternal ones but I think much more than that is a bit of a stretch tbh.

...but there are. Thing is, maternal/paternal doesn't mean anything aside from being a strong urge for caregiving, mostly towards kids, and this isn't biologically rooted to a specific gender. Both genders do it, both to different, or no degrees.

I don't have a shred of urge to care for, or even think favorably of kids. I don't like them. I find them noisy little barfbags dieting on your money. I find their fussing and cooing annoying, I think it's disgusting to see them drool over everything, and I cannot for the life of me see why other people find all of these things adorable and likable. I just don't. Of course, that's just me. I'm not you, you're not me, this is the case for every human ever, down to either many big, or very small variables...

It's both a nature and nurture thing. People have it or they don't, they may develope it or they may not.

[Deleted]

This.
I cannot understand what the hell is wrong with people, and why the fuck do they see family values as a bad thing?
What the fuck???

it doesnt fit with the modern femnazi rhetoric. being a stay at home mum is looked down on by these retards for some reason, especially when achieving equality is supposed to give women the choice...

as long as that choice fits the rhetoric i suppose.

[AtomicSpoon]

Some people just do not want to have children. There are a multitude of reasons but at the end of the day if a grown ass adult doesn't want to do something they don't have to. Quite a few people in this thread that are against the childfree folks.

[Deleted]

Women can have it ALL but only if they are smart enough to freeze their eggs as an insurance policy. I will grant you it is an expensive endeavour but most 20 something women can either save the money up or borrow it from their families. The way I see it cryopreservation of their dwindling egg supply is like making an investment. It is not secret that a woman's fertility declines beyond the young age of 26 so why shouldn't women think more long term and save up the best eggs while they still can.

While freezing eggs is a no guarantee of producing a healthy baby. Only 10% viable.

Frozen embryos have a much high success rate.

Yes, you want to have a child with your soul mate- but for all you know they may have problems with their sperm. You may also not meet this person until later in life.

Creating and freezing embryos made with quality donor sperm if you are under 30 is an insurance policy. 60%+ viability with this method.

I think women should become mothers as soon as possible. Who wants to become a mother in their 50's?

[May90]

That's not how nature works, as you know very well

What you did there is use the same kind of argument creationists use: "any possible deviation from the rule means the whole theory of evolution is wrong! One exception and you've lost!"

I'm not surprised: you've adopted the ideological "how things should be" mantra about gender the way religious people think about Genesis, with the same desire to discount reality and science when it runs against your beliefs

That's right: any deviation from a rule means that it is not a rule. A rule is something that is true always, regardless of the circumstances. The term you are looking for is a "general trend", or "tendency", but not "rule".

So, the question is, should a general trend be applied to individuals? No, it shouldn't. Apply it to any other category of people, and you will see how silly it sounds. Like, "Black people, on average, are less educated than white people in the US => a black applicant for a PhD program is likely going to be less productive, so we better never accept black applicants". Sounds good, huh?

It is not about "how things should be". It is pure logic: if you make any kind of assessment of an individual based on the general trend, then you are being illogical. You said that we should "follow biology" and don't care about being politically correct, but the way you propose we follow biology is erroneous. Biology makes different individual different; sometimes a given man will be more similar to how you see women than a given woman.

Trying to develop some kind of policies based on some inherent differences between men's and women's characters would end up badly, and it does end up badly. You are the first one on these forums to complain about women taking "half men's stuff": while it is an exaggeration, it is an example of what might happen if we follow your suggestion.

Men are attracted to the opposite gender's massive tits.
Women are not attracted to the opposite gender's massive tits.

YOUR MOVE MAY90

I am a man, and I'm not really attracted to the opposite gender's massive tits.
Gay men also are rarely attracted to the opposite gender's massive tits.

gg no re

If I go on a blind date with a woman, I'm expecting her to be several inches shorter than me. It's just probability and expectations.

You will be wrong quite often though.

[Halyon]

I think women should become mothers as soon as possible. Who wants to become a mother in their 50's?

There was a lady who had a baby when she was 64 I think... Which I do think is way too old, I mean when the kid's 30, good chance the mom will be dead, which is too early...

Still, women aged 20-40, is fine... They should have children when they see fit to have them.

[Deleted]

There was a lady who had a baby when she was 64 I think... Which I do think is way too old, I mean when the kid's 30, good chance the mom will be dead, which is too early...

Still, women aged 20-40, is fine... They should have children when they see fit to have them.

Of course, but if you wanna have a career first, what, you're gonna go study, maybe til you're 25 and then only work for 5-15 years and then retire and have a baby? Then why have a career to begin with? And if you're gonna work into your 50's, and then have a kid, you're effectively not gonna be a mother, but a grandmother.

I don't care if women become mothers, on like an individual, your choice, whatever. Same goes for guys and becoming fathers. But if you do, do it early and only work part-time. Put your family first, not your career.

[Deleted]

General rules and tendencies like:

Humans generally and as a rule have 5 toes on each foot - yet there are plenty of people with more (and perhaps less), and that's fine

There is a lot of variation in nature: that doesn't mean there aren't very consistent patterns (about human and primate societies, gender, what men are like and what women are like, etc) that we would absolutely accept as being generalisable, but for purely ideological reasons they are as taboo as heliocentrism was in the 16th century

If you want to be a creationist or a Catholic, it's your science-denying faith, feel free; but you have to know that until you're willing to be disturbed by the observable facts, you're not going to find those lovely consistent orbits

[dextersmith]

Women can have it ALL but only if they are smart enough to freeze their eggs as an insurance policy. I will grant you it is an expensive endeavour but most 20 something women can either save the money up or borrow it from their families. The way I see it cryopreservation of their dwindling egg supply is like making an investment. It is not secret that a woman's fertility declines beyond the young age of 26 so why shouldn't women think more long term and save up the best eggs while they still can.

While freezing eggs is a no guarantee of producing a healthy baby. Only 10% viable.

Frozen embryos have a much high success rate.

Yes, you want to have a child with your soul mate- but for all you know they may have problems with their sperm. You may also not meet this person until later in life.

Creating and freezing embryos made with quality donor sperm if you are under 30 is an insurance policy. 60%+ viability with this method.

You need to provide references for things you present as facts.

[Halyon]

Of course, but if you wanna have a career first, what, you're gonna go study, maybe til you're 25 and then only work for 5-15 years and then retire and have a baby? Then why have a career to begin with? And if you're gonna work into your 50's, and then have a kid, you're effectively not gonna be a mother, but a grandmother.

I don't care if women become mothers, on like an individual, your choice, whatever. Same goes for guys and becoming fathers. But if you do, do it early and only work part-time. Put your family first, not your career.

Afaik, it's more like wanting to get past education, get career off to a good start to ensure you have a stable, decently paid position and then put it on hold-ish (like keep working, but low-profile, not aiming for promotions etc, until they're past most of the kids childhood.

[Enthusiastic Steward]

Of course, but if you wanna have a career first, what, you're gonna go study, maybe til you're 25 and then only work for 5-15 years and then retire and have a baby? Then why have a career to begin with? And if you're gonna work into your 50's, and then have a kid, you're effectively not gonna be a mother, but a grandmother.

My wife finished grad school at 29, got a good job as a research scientist. Had our first kid at 32, took leave after the birth, went back to work, switched jobs so we could move back closer to where our families are (companies, not type of job), expecting our second kid next month at 34. Going to take leave and go back to work again. Since we have a family and a successful career, we're bad parents I guess?

You will be wrong quite often though.

That depends on the height of the man and the average height of the woman where they live. If I started going on blind dates I would very rarely encounter a woman who wasn't at least several inches shorter than me.

[Kraenen]

You will be wrong quite often though.

Most often I will be right. A small minority of the time my guess will be wrong. There's no real loss incurred in expecting a woman will be both shorter, weaker, and lighter than me when going on a blind date.