Ret Paladin 7.0.3 DPS comparison

[Tojara]

Not quite sure rets gonna be allowed to use all their blessings as might specially during progression... Kinda sad we dont have any interaction with our blessings midfight so we could swap em a bit on various roles and players accordingly.

It would have been annoying, yet a pretty big communication/skillful use of the ability if you could change them during an encounter. Right now because encounters are short and the disparity between retribution and the top classes (at least at 100) is fairly large, in practice BoM can account for more then 9% of damage. Not surprising, as there is a post slightly above that details that. If you could actually swap it around it would be a constant micro management of putting it on people when their major CDs come up, and since different classes have different CD lengths (typically in minute intervals) you would probably be destined to at the very least find 3 empty GCDs before every minute to line up with the next set of burst CDs. Is that interesting? Yeah, but is it fun? Apparently not. I do wish that BoM didn't fall off people when they fucking changed talents, I have no idea why as it really doesn't break anything.

I have to ask the question though, why would you not use 3 BoM in a raid? Blessing of wisdom is terrible, and tank deaths are usually the tank (or in this expansion a combination of tank and healer) fucking up. Kings is alright, but in no world would you be using it in raids. 100% if you're brought you will be using 3 BoM. PvP will obviously be different though and is about the only place (at least in 3s) where you will see the other blessings used.

In my honest opinion the best thing they could do for retribution is not balance them around 3 BoM and just up their damage to compensate. Making the blessings more powerful with individual CDs (2-3 mins) that you can throw out whenever you choose during combat would make it infinitely more useful and interesting. Or just still not balance around 3 BoM and make the others more attractive to where you might want to use them in a raid.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Not quite sure rets gonna be allowed to use all their blessings as might specially during progression... Kinda sad we dont have any interaction with our blessings midfight so we could swap em a bit on various roles and players accordingly.

Rets will 100% use all their blessings for Might, you're a dps and your main role is to damage. If you have to put up wisdom on a healer then you drop your own dps which makes shit harder to kill which means there's potentially more healing to do- meaning it works against itself. If you can't kill something you don't look at healers being weak, you look at dpsers.
"We're wiping to 'Monstrous Blobber Jib', who's doing the least damage to it? Oh it's the WW monk, can you change how you damage it? No, ok replaced."
You don't solve a problem by creating another, rets will 100% be balanced around having 3 GBoM out, just as Enh shamans will be balanced around their lightning crap dealing damage through buffing others.

- - - Updated - - -

In that sim,is stormlash dmg attributed to the shaman?

That sim:

Since people are asking; here is the T19P (pre-raid) raid profile as of last night's build. Keep in mind this is 840 ilvl with artifacts at 855; and only using 19 traits.

Not full artifact weapons, only 840 ilvl, pure ST encounter, not using any legendary items... don't really think that sim shows anything but early on ST damage. There's a number of specs there that shine on cleave or AoE/AoE Burst or target swapping and so on.
It's not a secret that I dislike sims to somehow "tell" what spec is good or not. Sims should be used to figure out rotation priorities, stat weights and to some extent trinket strengths. It's almost impossible to look at a simulation and judge who's going to be strong.

[marinos]

That sim:

Not full artifact weapons, only 840 ilvl, pure ST encounter, not using any legendary items... don't really think that sim shows anything but early on ST damage. There's a number of specs there that shine on cleave or AoE/AoE Burst or target swapping and so on.
It's not a secret that I dislike sims to somehow "tell" what spec is good or not. Sims should be used to figure out rotation priorities, stat weights and to some extent trinket strengths. It's almost impossible to look at a simulation and judge who's going to be strong.

Mostly interested to see if they configured it so that the dmg is attributed to the shaman, I know that numbers there mean nothing.

[Deleted]

Am not quite sure about BoW. To me its like 20% mana and hp pool for a 5 min fight. Seems quite interesting specially for holy palas if am not mistaken. Again never tried beta or have any feedback so am completely in the dark making reaching even worse conclusions.

[marinos]

Am not quite sure about BoW. To me its like 20% mana and hp pool for a 5 min fight. Seems quite interesting specially for holy palas if am not mistaken. Again never tried beta or have any feedback so am completely in the dark making reaching even worse conclusions.

No point using anything else other than BoM, the faster things die the less mana issues healers will have.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

No point using anything else other than BoM, the faster things die the less mana issues healers will have.

Exactly, if you're struggling with something you look for the weakest link. If you have to buff a healer then you're likely going to become the weakest link (if you aren't already).
One potential "weird" thing that can happen with BoM is that you won't put it on the highest overall performing people in your raids, you may end up putting it on someone doing specific things like Arms Warriors for AoE burst or Fury Warriors for Execute. Heck you might even put it on Feral druids or other ST turrets if you lack boss damage even though there are others that do more spread damage but to less important targets that you kill in time anyways.
Then throw in Legendary items, trinkets and set bonuses. As a ret you're kinda forced to know the strengths of all dps specs in the game and their legendary items AND how they work from encounter to encounter...

...or blizzard could just scrap this awful idea and give rets 10% more damage...

[Deleted]

10% damage increase of a single dpser (specially if things dont go south and your blessed players die) is not going to make up the time needed to kill a boss. It's more of an answer to meters. And again no idea how healers are handling things in beta and if they got mana issues in fights (are there 5 min length fights even?) and how they manage themselves around them. However the second one healer gonna whine about mana handling during an encounter i can safely predict there are going to be less BoMs in the raid.

[marinos]

10% damage increase of a single dpser (specially if things dont go south and your blessed players die) is not going to make up the time needed to kill a boss. It's more of an answer to meters. And again no idea how healers are handling things in beta and if they got mana issues in fights (are there 5 min length fights even?) and how they manage themselves around them. However the second one healer gonna whine about mana handling during an encounter i can safely predict there are going to be less BoMs in the raid.

Then that raid has more serious problems to solve, sorry. If you bring a ret in order to BoW healers then something is really wrong with the raid group.

Also 10% more dmg is true that doesnt make a difference, thats why ret wont be brought in raids as things stand right now, there is 0 gain.

[andz]

When will the charts be updated simwise?

[Morally Grey Storm]

10% damage increase of a single dpser (specially if things dont go south and your blessed players die) is not going to make up the time needed to kill a boss. It's more of an answer to meters. And again no idea how healers are handling things in beta and if they got mana issues in fights (are there 5 min length fights even?) and how they manage themselves around them. However the second one healer gonna whine about mana handling during an encounter i can safely predict there are going to be less BoMs in the raid.

other (not so)Greater Blessings are infinetely inferior to GBoMight.
GBoW is incredibly, awfully weak.
You will not use it.

[Ciric-Wildhammer]

Should make it where you can't stack GBoW on a player and make it 2%-3% hp and mana every 5 second. Maybe 3 of each blessings instead of just 3 total.

[Ciric-Wildhammer]

"If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of GT."

Some of the silliest crap I've ever heard. Not the case whatsoever.

But, they quit going by power levels near the end of the Frieza saga. Also they gave up on how powerful ki blast should be. Also everyone knows DBGT is no canon and they already made Goku and Vegeta a God in DBS.

[Krekko]

Let's not drag this thread off-topic and out of hand, please!

Also, for the love of god, don't use Noxxic.

[PeopleReady]

Is the Ret situation truly as dire as the forums make it out to be? That is, Ret simply will not generally see play in mythic raids or Mythic+ dungeons?

[Krothare]

Is the Ret situation truly as dire as the forums make it out to be? That is, Ret simply will not generally see play in mythic raids or Mythic+ dungeons?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Logs are entirely meaningless right now and so are 110 sims because Blizzard can and will make pretty wild tuning changes between Legion Launch, the Nightmare opening and a few weeks after that. Despite what people on this (and actually every class forum) will have you believe Blizzard is actually pretty good at making sure every class has at least one DPS spec worth bringing to raids and high end dungeons.

[OrcsRLame]

Is the Ret situation truly as dire as the forums make it out to be? That is, Ret simply will not generally see play in mythic raids or Mythic+ dungeons?

The following is my opinion. Many here will likely disagree with this.

Ret can do very good damage. I don't know if we're the best, (probably not) but after many hours of testing on beta I cannot truthfully say that I think we are the worst numbers wise. I will say we need a lot of artifact traits, (29) before we really hit our stride, as that is the tipping point where Divine Storm becomes better than TV on 2 targets. For the record, I think we gain a lot more dps from our artifact than most specs, though perhaps not all. Critical traits for our damage are Wrath of the Ashbringer, Ashes to Ashes, Echo of the Highlord and Divine Tempest. Without at least Ashes, Echo and WOTA, we are truly garbage. Thankfully we can have basically everything relevant but Divine Tempest before the opening of EN.

Where ret falters as a spec is its mechanics. The judgment debuff is unnecessarily punishing. Sometimes you need to hold off on doing damage to low health targets if you want to be able to hit harder than a wet noodle on an upcoming priority target. Or in more simple terms, if you judge a target and it dies 1.2 seconds later, you're fucked if there's anything else you need to kill. Our utility in most situations is our single target stun, lay on hands, our greater blessings, (which aside from possible extreme outlier situations will just be part of our normal dps), BoP, Freedom. Ret has quite good survivability due to SoV and Divine Intervention. We have more niche utility in the form of Flash of Light and Blinding Light. With the changes to the pony our mobility is better but not great. Well, I say we have no AoE stun, but Wake of Ashes is an AoE stun in some situations, though that will obviously not work on everything and if you pop it thoughtlessly you could DR more reliable AoE stuns which could instantly kill your tank if you're doing mythic+.

And that's pretty much ret in a nutshell. Our utility is objectively worse than other options as we lack a reliable AoE stun, we're on the low side for mobility, we have no AoE grip, and we have no raid CD.

If I'm being totally honest, the world first raid comp for mythic EN dps wise will probably be 3 rogues, a warrior and a DK. Maybe 2 rogues and a DH. The rest will be all ranged, because in wow ranged are just better in a general sense. None of that is really any different than WoD though. Sure, we lost sac, and that sucks, but warriors lost vigilance. If raid comps were bringing ~8 melee, then it'd probably be standard to have 1 ret. We're not bad, we're just not the best so we get left out of fully optimized comps by default, because melee is bad mechanically. It's WoD 2.0 for us basically. *shrugs*

[Improtaight]

its not enough that the dps seems to be low (atm, cant say on 110), but the new gameplay SUX big time! i freaking hate this colossus smash play style!
+ talents are awful!

[Deleted]

Is the Ret situation truly as dire as the forums make it out to be? That is, Ret simply will not generally see play in mythic raids or Mythic+ dungeons?

Its even worse than forums make it out to be. I mean, on forums you have guys actually claiming its not all terrible while talking out of their asses saying stuff thats completely opposite of reality.
Its terrible in aoe, cleave, target swap and lots of movement fights. Fights its not terrible on: patchwerk style. Combined with 0 utility, you can see the reason why its shit tier, right?

Has no options, talents are insanely bad and dont change gameplay at all, artifact traits are by far the worst of all classes and specs and baseline is worst design of any class and spec since vanilla probably. On top of having like 1/3 of talents being terribly designed useless shit(equality and... well, most of those on the right), you have half of useful stuff that scales like shit(ES, JV) and will be useless after 1-2 months of exp and never to picked again without rebalancing.
Pretty much only choice is: DP or crusade? With DP being the only fun improving option in whole spec and crusade being better for min-max stuff... actually making JV even worse as its useless without DP.

[Deleted]

I agree with Laurcus our dps is not the worst of the worst but that only initially as soon as the gear levels rise the weaker we will get since we lack any mention worthy scaling after 30% haste. This is a result of 0 stat interactive mechanics, the best example for such a mechanic would be a fire mage. So essentially ret´s spot is a decent start into raiding at the beginning of an addon which diminishes with every weak of gear farmed. But this time we have an artifact that prevents us from shining since we will 6 weeks to get everything we need for that.

BUT what most of us complain is not the dmg but the lack of a valable niche in progress or even semi progress raiding. We do not shine at anything which gives raidleads no compelling reason to slot us assuming even geared/skilled alternatives.

P.s.: Thou who called ashbringer our salvation read the words of our lord and cry bitter tears:

Classes are balanced against each other without Artifacts or Legendary items. The Artifacts and Legendary items are then balanced against each other separately.

[andz]

I can already picture that:
"Oh what we have 4 ret in the raid? The boss fight is only 1:30 longer, so ret start the taunting rotation. Before that we gonne sacrifice our weakest damage dealer. Hey second tank! Turn around and knee down so you get some crits up your a**. And after 30 secs: Hey you monk, run into the cleave!!! Oh and after that all paladins run into the fire for your shield exploding if it's still up!!!"

Does that feel like a "Paladin class fantasy" to you dear developer?