The George Lucas versions of Episodes VII-IX we will never get to see

[A dot Ham]

You're......you're joking, right?

I honestly don't know how anyone who knows anything about film can say this about these movies.

Say what?

For the most part I named specific items that audiences loved that came from the "creative control" of George Lucas. Things that were NEW, things that took us to a place we hadn't seen before.

Please tell me how episode VII delivered on that regard?

Machete order starts with the fight scene with Darth Maul. Choreography [check], double sided lightsabers [check].

Design people absolutely LOVE the Naboo people. Amidala's wardrobe was a costume designer's dream. The ships throughout the 3 episodes are very thematic and culturally recognizeable. The architecture of the Naboo phenomenal.

[Shibito]

VII could have been good with Rey character development instead of the mary sue crap and the emp sith just makes it unbearable.

[A dot Ham]

Nothing better than a lungless cyborg with raspy breath... Also a perfect example of a villain we're supposed to find impressive just because we're told he is.

He was a lot cooler in the cartoon and backstory.

Heh, a missile that disgorges little robots (rather than... explosives) to dismantle a ship, while a pair of telekinetic jedi must move their ships closer togethor to knock them off... Yeah, epic.

I guess if that was your only take away from that whole sequence then ya... pretty fucking lame. But we all know there was way more there and you are just being hyperbolic.

Electing underage queens for a few years at a time in the middle of a war...
But really, 1 had my biggest pet peeve, races built around an accent.

Wasn't really talking about the culture/society itself. But again not all that unrealistic. Great Britain's Queen is nothing more than a figurehead. Dalai Lama is chosen or "found" at an extremely young age. While yes impressionable, and naieve, a young mind also possesses purity, idealism, and one would hope uncorrupted.

True, those jedi sure can dance.

Much preferred to the "fencing" (if you can call it that) of the original trilogy. Or the attempts to replicate said fencing in episode VII by purposely making them seem inexperienced (yet somehow that inexperience comes out on top).

A perfect example of an actor that could have been so much better if Lucas hadn't been at the helm.

Touche.

Mind you, it could be amusing to see a novelization of the Lucas versions of the movies.

Terry Brooks wrote episode I before its release and it was fantastic. Although he also stands by the crap being peddled by MTV and Shanara series... but... I'm just going to remember him pre MTV.

[Ealyssa]

Episode VII was fine, and miles above I II III

Lucas can stfu

[A dot Ham]

Or more likely shred it and burn the remain, scatter them across the oceans, preferably different ones, and get George fucking Lucas as far from Star Wars as possible.

IF you disagree, i have many arguements to show you are wrong, but I only need one:

Jar jar fucking Binks.

Case closed.

Well then we just don't have Star Wars at all. Period. Case Closed.

[eschatological]

Say what?

For the most part I named specific items that audiences loved that came from the "creative control" of George Lucas. Things that were NEW, things that took us to a place we hadn't seen before.

Please tell me how episode VII delivered on that regard?

Machete order starts with the fight scene with Darth Maul. Choreography [check], double sided lightsabers [check].

Design people absolutely LOVE the Naboo people. Amidala's wardrobe was a costume designer's dream. The ships throughout the 3 episodes are very thematic and culturally recognizeable. The architecture of the Naboo phenomenal.

If you have to chop up your 3 films into a Machete Order that's...what, about the length of one of the films?....then your film isn't good. Anyone who knows anything about film knows Episodes 1-3 were objectively failures of film making.

The design of Naboo was a variation on Asian. That's about it. Amidala looked like a geisha most of the time.

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Also, the choreography of the Darth Maul scene was ridiculous. For three movies, we're told the Force is a calm, soothing thing, a serenity in the center of one's being, and lightsaber use based on defensive techniques. The Darth Maul fight was just flash, and nothing else. It had none of the gravitas of any of the original trilogy fights. It's supposed to, after all, Obi Wan's mentor dies in this fight - but Obi Wan was an asshole and a total contradiction of everything we knew about Jedi previously, so when he died, no one cared.

"Excitement? Adventure? A Jedi craves not these things."

[Thage]

Considering Star Wars was one of the most licensed products before Disney bought the franchise- Lucas hardly was above merchandising his material left & right.

I was about to say. Do people just not realize that merchandising the ever-loving shit out of Star Wars is how Lucas made his fortune? He negotiated an extremely favorable merchandising deal with 20th Century Fox that all but guaranteed he would get the majority of profits from merchandising, because 2CF didn't think Star Wars was gonna take off like it did (and I'll bet dollars to donuts Disney's deal included renegotiating merchandising splits to favor Disney). With that deal and Star Wars's success, Lucas licensed the hell out of his product, to the point where just about every single character you see on screen, even extras, have names and backstories just so there's something to put on the toy's packaging.

[A dot Ham]

If you have to chop up your 3 films into a Machete Order that's...what, about the length of one of the films?....then your film isn't good. Anyone who knows anything about film knows Episodes 1-3 were objectively failures of film making.

The design of Naboo was a variation on Asian. That's about it. Amidala looked like a geisha most of the time.

"variation on Asian" what does that even mean? The architecture was very ancient rome. Were we watching the same film?

I suppose Mr. Moderator is said expert in film making?

What criteria exactly separates a good film from a bad one?

Awards? Cuz Episode I is up there in awards nominated and awards won.

Box office sales? Record breaking whaaaat?

Fan reception? By your own admission fans immediate reaction was positive, given a cooling off period THEN they had issues with it. Comparatively there was an immediate stark contrast between people that loved Abrams Star Wars and those that did not.

------------------------------------------

Really Jar Jar Binks? Whether you loved or hated the prequels universally we agree he's a terrible character. He didn't break the film though. Annoying yes. But hardly enough of a significant character for you to hate the film altogether. If you can't ignore his involvement I question whether or not you are just being petty.

[Svifnymr]

He was a lot cooler in the cartoon and backstory.

Admittedly I didn't pursue information outside of the movie to add depth to the movie since I was really put off by the movie itself. Grievous wheezing whether he was in an atmosphere or not, his entire "shtick" was just ugh.

I guess if that was your only take away from that whole sequence then ya... pretty fucking lame. But we all know there was way more there and you are just being hyperbolic.

It's not hyperbolic, granted it's been years but that was quite a large time sink in that "epic space battle" from what I recall. There was also the wooden dialogue between the two of them, like a lot of the prequel stuff it felt like they weren't actually talking to each other during filming, just reading lines in a greenscreen box. Unless you mean Anakin in movie 1 accidentally blowing up the control center, that wasn't a very epic battle. Obviously this is all subjective opinion, but when I see something really dumb it does tend to take me out of the scene even after that specific element has moved on.

Wasn't really talking about the culture/society itself. But again not all that unrealistic. Great Britain's Queen is nothing more than a figurehead. Dalai Lama is chosen or "found" at an extremely young age. While yes impressionable, and naieve, a young mind also possesses purity, idealism, and one would hope uncorrupted.

In Ep1, I thought it was something like a queen that got confirmed at a young age. Later it becomes obvious that the queen title is just their name for the elected position like president or prime minister. It was an election, during a turbulent time, and her term isn't even that long. What, 6 years or something? It's like with Jar Jar where he just changed his mind and changed her. And this is a universe with The Force, so I could accept that "the Force picked her" or something, but elected? Silly. Heck, maybe they could have revealed that Palpatine arranged the entire thing to put a useless little girl on the throne when he needed it.

Much preferred to the "fencing" (if you can call it that) of the original trilogy. Or the attempts to replicate said fencing in episode VII by purposely making them seem inexperienced (yet somehow that inexperience comes out on top).

Always comes down to preference, sure. Though the "fencing" had an actual fencer vs some stunt coordinators. The Original Trilogy focuses on an old man, an untrained jedi and a cyborg that can barely move at times, so obviously it'd be different from the hyped up combat of the prequels, but the prequels just seemed to rely more on flashy jumps and acrobatics than actually trying to kill the other guy. Ep7 was a staff fighter vs a wounded rage machine, I'm not sure how much Renn actually knows about saber fighting.

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If you have to chop up your 3 films into a Machete Order that's...what, about the length of one of the films?....then your film isn't good. Anyone who knows anything about film knows Episodes 1-3 were objectively failures of film making.

I've not heard of starting at Darth Maul fight, from what I know Machete order is 4,5,2,3,6, using 2&3 as a flashback to explain Vader as Luke's Father (once it's revealed in ep5). It ditches Ep1 entirely.

Also, the choreography of the Darth Maul scene was ridiculous. For three movies, we're told the Force is a calm, soothing thing, a serenity in the center of one's being, and lightsaber use based on defensive techniques. The Darth Maul fight was just flash, and nothing else. It had none of the gravitas of any of the original trilogy fights. It's supposed to, after all, Obi Wan's mentor dies in this fight - but Obi Wan was an asshole and a total contradiction of everything we knew about Jedi previously, so when he died, no one cared.

"Excitement? Adventure? A Jedi craves not these things."

I think even the staunchest fans of the Prequels will still laugh at the "I have the higher ground!" line.

[eschatological]

"variation on Asian" what does that even mean? The architecture was very ancient rome. Were we watching the same film?

The fashion that you lauded so much - was basically just a variation of Asian geishas.

I'm not a film expert, but film experts have said these films are bad. Direction, writing, story - they're all important, and Episodes I-III are lacking in all of them. It broke records because of hype. Lots of films do well financially without being good movies.

Awards? Phantom Menace was nominated for three Oscars, all having to do with sound and effects. Same with the BAFTAs. It did pretty well at the Academy of Science Fiction, Fantasy, & Horror Films, the Saturn Awards, where it won for Best Costumes and Best Special Effects. And had 8 nominations. You know what movie did as well as it did at these awards? Sleepy Hollow. The Matrix, Being John Malkovich, The Green Mile - they all did better in an awards show based around the genre Star Wars should dominate in. Episode VII? Won 8 Saturns, including Best Science Fiction film, Best Writing, Best Actor, Best Supporting Actor, Best Music, Best Editing, Best Make-Up, and your precious Best Special-Effects.

[A dot Ham]

Admittedly I didn't pursue information outside of the movie to add depth to the movie since I was really put off by the movie itself. Grievous wheezing whether he was in an atmosphere or not, his entire "shtick" was just ugh.

Well to be fair that actually came out prior to his box office film debut.

It's not hyperbolic, granted it's been years but that was quite a large time sink in that "epic space battle" from what I recall. There was also the wooden dialogue between the two of them, like a lot of the prequel stuff it felt like they weren't actually talking to each other during filming, just reading lines in a greenscreen box. Unless you mean Anakin in movie 1 accidentally blowing up the control center, that wasn't a very epic battle. Obviously this is all subjective opinion, but when I see something really dumb it does tend to take me out of the scene even after that specific element has moved on.

There is an entire battle taking place. Particularly between the larger cruisers. Sorry you missed it, but it was epic.

In Ep1, I thought it was something like a queen that got confirmed at a young age. Later it becomes obvious that the queen title is just their name for the elected position like president or prime minister. It was an election, during a turbulent time, and her term isn't even that long. What, 6 years or something? It's like with Jar Jar where he just changed his mind and changed her. And this is a universe with The Force, so I could accept that "the Force picked her" or something, but elected? Silly. Heck, maybe they could have revealed that Palpatine arranged the entire thing to put a useless little girl on the throne when he needed it.

In the film the process is never mentioned. In "Darth Plagueis" it describes the political system of Naboo a little bit more. Kids are groomed and sent to a special school to serve their community as government officials. Palpatine does influence the political system on Naboo but does so sans force. Much more devious!

Always comes down to preference, sure. Though the "fencing" had an actual fencer vs some stunt coordinators. The Original Trilogy focuses on an old man, an untrained jedi and a cyborg that can barely move at times, so obviously it'd be different from the hyped up combat of the prequels, but the prequels just seemed to rely more on flashy jumps and acrobatics than actually trying to kill the other guy. Ep7 was a staff fighter vs a wounded rage machine, I'm not sure how much Renn actually knows about saber fighting.

Ray Park the actor for Darth Maul is/was a trained martial artist AND stunt coordinator. He was a key player in both orchestrating and performing those scenes. Kung Fu, Taekwondo, Kickboxing, Wushu (taken from his wikipedia page). So it was far more in depth than someone who is an expert in say fencing explaining how to hold a sword and perform basic defense and strikes. You make it sound like they threw some guys from jackass in there and said, "Ok now hit each other with these glowey things..."

[Jotaux]

I think episode III stands the test of time.

I just found Anikan and Padme to be terrible in those films. It was like watching The Room. I enjoyed the film but those two were just horrible in that film.

[A dot Ham]

The fashion that you lauded so much - was basically just a variation of Asian geishas.

I'm not a film expert, but film experts have said these films are bad. Direction, writing, story - they're all important, and Episodes I-III are lacking in all of them. It broke records because of hype. Lots of films do well financially without being good movies.

Awards? Phantom Menace was nominated for three Oscars, all having to do with sound and effects. Same with the BAFTAs. It did pretty well at the Academy of Science Fiction, Fantasy, & Horror Films, the Saturn Awards, where it won for Best Costumes and Best Special Effects. And had 8 nominations. You know what movie did as well as it did at these awards? Sleepy Hollow. The Matrix, Being John Malkovich, The Green Mile - they all did better in an awards show based around the genre Star Wars should dominate in. Episode VII? Won 8 Saturns, including Best Science Fiction film, Best Writing, Best Actor, Best Supporting Actor, Best Music, Best Editing, Best Make-Up, and your precious Best Special-Effects.

All good films what is your point?

You still haven't provided a criteria that make a film a "good film" and what makes a "bad film"

Comparing to those films that have won similar awards only gives credence to it actually being a "good film".

Bottom line there are those of us out there that accept the good with the bad, and that means *gasp* enjoying the prequels. That also means that I can sit down and enjoy (with moderate enthusiasm) the rehash that is episode VII... again i accept the good with the bad.

When someone makes some blatant statement like "Fuck George Lucas, he ruined Star Wars." I can't help think how ignorant they sound given the fact that he created Star Wars.

Could he have used some help directing/writing the prequels? Perhaps, but likely the elements would still be the same.

Then this praise to Abrams... gag me. Well no fucking duh you loved it... its because its the exact same shit that made you fall in love with Star Wars in the first place. The Star Wars that GEORGE created! But 2016 Carrie Fisher in a metal bikini just isn't marketable anymore. The love/hate relationship some fans have with George Lucas borders on psychotic.

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I just found Anikan and Padme to be terrible in those films. It was like watching The Room. I enjoyed the film but those two were just horrible in that film.

Hayden Christensen is a terrible Actor to be sure.

Natalie Portman, Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson... all great actors who provided a shit performance. Ya someone should have caught that. Point goes to you!

[derpkitteh]

that cuck jj abrams needs to be kept as far from this franchise as possible. it's sickening he already got one movie.

if it were anyone but him making it, i'd maybe be ok.

[StrongGeek]

You can tell who the millennials are in this thread....

[MatadorMedia]

Didn't Disney hire the writer and director of Empire Strikes Back to help them with their new films? That's the best Star Wars movie unanimously and Lucas was only a producer. So I dunno he messed up the prequels so bad; keep George away.

[PBitt]

Episode VII was a *lot* better than I-III.

[Damajin]

All good films what is your point?

You still haven't provided a criteria that make a film a "good film" and what makes a "bad film"

Comparing to those films that have won similar awards only gives credence to it actually being a "good film".

Bottom line there are those of us out there that accept the good with the bad, and that means *gasp* enjoying the prequels. That also means that I can sit down and enjoy (with moderate enthusiasm) the rehash that is episode VII... again i accept the good with the bad.

When someone makes some blatant statement like "Fuck George Lucas, he ruined Star Wars." I can't help think how ignorant they sound given the fact that he created Star Wars.

Could he have used some help directing/writing the prequels? Perhaps, but likely the elements would still be the same.

Then this praise to Abrams... gag me. Well no fucking duh you loved it... its because its the exact same shit that made you fall in love with Star Wars in the first place. The Star Wars that GEORGE created! But 2016 Carrie Fisher in a metal bikini just isn't marketable anymore. The love/hate relationship some fans have with George Lucas borders on psychotic.

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Hayden Christensen is a terrible Actor to be sure.

Natalie Portman, Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson... all great actors who provided a shit performance. Ya someone should have caught that. Point goes to you!

The prequels are the way they are because all he hired that time around were Yes men who weren't going to challenge him. His 'revisions' to the original trilogy via the Special Editions and some of the info regarding changes that were made along the way because the Exec. Producer and various other people pulled him aside and said "X is really, really, really bad and has to be changed to Y or this movie is going to be really, really bad" show that while he can be credited for the original idea and for a good portion of the story, look and flavor of Star Wars that left alone he'd have totally jacked it up and we probably wouldn't even be talking about Star Wars at this point.

His other movies have shown that unless he's got some seriously talented people in the mix that they're going to be shit. He was the main creative guy behind Indiana Jones 4, the major difference being that the first three were much more collaborative between him, Spielberg and the rotating cast of producer and screenwriters they had on the first three which were all leaps and bounds better than Crystal Skull could ever dream of being.

Lucas just needs smart people to keep his giant ego in check and tell him no and he'd be just fine. He has lots of really interesting ideas and takes on stories and is altogether a pretty strong visual guy that just needs some people to slam the brakes for him when he goes too far and ruins his own deal because left alone without anyone to do that he's all but guaranteed to fuck things up.

[A dot Ham]

You can tell who the millennials are in this thread....

Can you? Thank you for gracing us with your presence.

[Eldar45]

The only good Star Wars movie that was basically all Lucas was A New Hope. Besides that the Prequals were terrible and the best Star Wars movie had little Lucas involvement at all (And that is Empire). I've said this a thousand times: Lucas is not a good storyteller, but he is an excellent world builder.

For me The Force Awakens sits around the same level as Jedi. It is overall good with a few let downs.