Arms Legion Discussion

[Anuibus]

The only reason I see for dauntless procing tactician less is because during battle cry you spend less rage

Tactician uses the base rage cost of the spell. Neither dauntless nor deadly calm effect tacticians proc chance.

[Rhyzoh]

Tactician uses the base rage cost of the spell. Neither dauntless nor deadly calm effect tacticians proc chance.

Oh I see, I just simmed overpower vs dauntless as well and saw less with dauntless not sure why

[Anuibus]

Oh I see, I just simmed overpower vs dauntless as well and saw less with dauntless not sure why

I simmed 50k iterations over 10 minutes with the action priority list consisting only of slam. Both had similar amounts of tactician procs (35.3 compared to 35.4), even though dauntless used slam 339 times compared to 271 times specced with overpower. Dauntless should've had closer to 44 tactician procs.

I'm also currently running a live dummy test specced with dauntless. Will be using 1000 slams to see how many times tactican procs. Should be close to 130 if tactician still goes by base rage cost as originally stated by blizzard.

Edit: After 800 slams and 160 whirlwinds, spending 16,000 rage (20,000 base rage), I ended up with 125 tactician procs. I'm sure as the rage spent went closer to infinity, it would get closer and closer to .65% chance per rage spent to proc it. But im not going to sit around spamming slam more than i already did.

[Hashcrypt]

I'm wondering how much OpS va HS was contributing to DPS. Hopefully it's not a large decrease in overall damage. I truly prefer Sword Spec to FR spam for gameplay.

edit: Nvm, too early I guess. This change won't effect Trauma/OpS builds. Nothing to see here.

[thefatty01]

I prefer Trauma/OpS because it feels exactly like you said: Sword Spec w/ Deep wounds. Even if Trauma can be considered a "20% dmg buff" and it only being a passive talent, I really enjoy the feel of it. However, I do like more interaction with my keyboard, and FR allows for higher APM and pressing buttons off the GCD, but FR is a sad replacement for Heroic Strike.

[Hashcrypt]

I prefer Trauma/OpS because it feels exactly like you said: Sword Spec w/ Deep wounds. Even if Trauma can be considered a "20% dmg buff" and it only being a passive talent, I really enjoy the feel of it. However, I do like more interaction with my keyboard, and FR allows for higher APM and pressing buttons off the GCD, but FR is a sad replacement for Heroic Strike.

Hoping Rend will get some love so it can be added into the rotation, giving more buttons to press and more old school Arms gameplay.

[thefatty01]

Hoping Rend will get some love so it can be added into the rotation, giving more buttons to press and more old school Arms gameplay.

That's the issue with not playing FR just not enough buttons. I like rend, but not for 15rage... Overpower does help a lot though. As I mentioned earlier, I love the proc-style of Arms

[AboikoS]

In my opinion Legion Arms gameplay/damage model mostly is surprisingly good, a lot of improvement from MoP/WoD however its still far from its peak (Cata).

First, Colossus smash needs a lower CD, i have no idea why they put it on absurd 45 sec CD making this spec to be so RNG reliant. Fury used to be completely RNG based and did it work? No. Everyone hated it.

Second, i feel like Arms needs something to differentiate it from Fury other than Rotation. While Fury has good self healing (ridiculously overnerfed in PvP tho) and superior mobility, Arms has nothing what makes him that much different. I think giving Arms some combat/team utility could be fine here and would fit the class fantasy, since Fury is full offensive berserker and Arms a some kind of battlemaster, leader, tactician.

Third, its honestly unfun to play a plate class and feel like you are the squishiest spec in the game, when others Leather/Cloth armored can take more damage and survive while also being able to regenerate some of their health back and thats not only hybrids. I feel like the problem is not in self healing but rather in the lack of defensive buttons, i like the idea of Fury being the self healing spec but Arms needs to have significantly superior defensives to make up for it.

Oh and would be nice if blizz did smth with Arms's execute rotation, its horribly boring to wait for rage just to dump all of it in one Execute, then do nothing because ur out of rage to press any other dps button. Maybe make In for the kill baseline and replace it with Rend in its tier. Also rend could get some love.

[Ellianar]

In my opinion Legion Arms gameplay/damage model mostly is surprisingly good, a lot of improvement from MoP/WoD however its still far from its peak (Cata).

First, Colossus smash needs a lower CD, i have no idea why they put it on absurd 45 sec CD making this spec to be so RNG reliant. Fury used to be completely RNG based and did it work? No. Everyone hated it.

Second, i feel like Arms needs something to differentiate it from Fury other than Rotation. While Fury has good self healing (ridiculously overnerfed in PvP tho) and superior mobility, Arms has nothing what makes him that much different. I think giving Arms some combat/team utility could be fine here and would fit the class fantasy, since Fury is full offensive berserker and Arms a some kind of battlemaster, leader, tactician.

Third, its honestly unfun to play a plate class and feel like you are the squishiest spec in the game, when others Leather/Cloth armored can take more damage and survive while also being able to regenerate some of their health back and thats not only hybrids. I feel like the problem is not in self healing but rather in the lack of defensive buttons, i like the idea of Fury being the self healing spec but Arms needs to have significantly superior defensives to make up for it.

Oh and would be nice if blizz did smth with Arms's execute rotation, its horribly boring to wait for rage just to dump all of it in one Execute, then do nothing because ur out of rage to press any other dps button. Maybe make In for the kill baseline and replace it with Rend in its tier. Also rend could get some love.

RNG isn't that big of a deal, you will almost never have to wait for the entire 45 seconds of CS CD. And the artifact ability is there in case of drought.

Fury has neither good self healing or better mobility. The bloodthirst heal is not that significant, and Arms gets 9% of MS dmg as heal with the artifact tree and Victory rush, I'd wager Arms has better self healing on fights with some adds. Mobility is the exact same, double charge if talented, shorter cd heroic leap if talented.

I agree on the Defensive CD bit.

Once again with the artifact each CS reduces the cost of the next exec/MS by 45% and this talent will most likely be a focus for relics.

[Holofernes]

Oh I see, I just simmed overpower vs dauntless as well and saw less with dauntless not sure why

u spent globals on a 10 rage cost ability, so u spent less rage overall resulting in fewer procs. But, as u have more globals to spent via op procs, u need less resets to smooth the rotation out, and with not so imba ammount of secondary stat gear, overpowers dmg and bonus crit outweights the benefit of the additonal dauntless procs.

With dauntless u cant really spent the rage u have, exept u dump it into focused rage. Thats why anuibus test is skewed, he cant spent all the rage efficiently in his testing setup. He should use focused range as rage dump in his test, so he would get a "proper" actual test done and could compare the tactisian resets, and i bet they would be close the the expactations.

[thefatty01]

First, Colossus smash needs a lower CD, i have no idea why they put it on absurd 45 sec CD making this spec to be so RNG reliant. Fury used to be completely RNG based and did it work? No. Everyone hated it.

People do say "oh but tactician makes it better" well if that's true, then why don't they just shorten its CD?

Second, i feel like Arms needs something to differentiate it from Fury other than Rotation. While Fury has good self healing (ridiculously overnerfed in PvP tho) and superior mobility, Arms has nothing what makes him that much different. I think giving Arms some combat/team utility could be fine here and would fit the class fantasy, since Fury is full offensive berserker and Arms a some kind of battlemaster, leader, tactician.

I mean "technically" fury has 3 heroic leaps (honor talent) but eh I think mobility is fine for arms. However, I do really like your idea of extra defensives. Armor type means jack shit now, so yeah I think us having something like shield barrier (now ignore pain) would be nice. If we want to survive, we can spend rage to do so. But yeah, Fury has terrible self heal now because of the nerf. And if they just fix Victory Rush to be "an attack within a second of it dying" vs. a killing blow, it would be infinitely better, especially since execute is a foam noodle.

Oh and would be nice if blizz did smth with Arms's execute rotation, its horribly boring to wait for rage just to dump all of it in one Execute, then do nothing because ur out of rage to press any other dps button.

It confuses me a little that Fury only has rampage that uses rage (except execute), and arms has every ability use rage. IftK and Deadly Calm helps a lot with this, and using your charges to your advantage.

[AboikoS]

RNG isn't that big of a deal, you will almost never have to wait for the entire 45 seconds of CS CD. And the artifact ability is there in case of drought.

Once again with the artifact each CS reduces the cost of the next exec/MS by 45% and this talent will most likely be a focus for relics.

Exactly, then even more, what is the point of CS having that long CD? It will probably happen to you and any other Arms many times, maybe rarely ofc. but still possible that you wont get any proc during that time and you'll have to wait full 45sec feeling like ur being worthless wet noodle hiter...Instead why cant we almost completely get rid of that RNG mechanic?

If it'll be just like you say and tactician procs will be there very often anyways, then reducing CS cd wont really affect Arms DPS that much but will get rid of that annoying RNG...

Fury has neither good self healing or better mobility. The bloodthirst heal is not that significant, and Arms gets 9% of MS dmg as heal with the artifact tree and Victory rush, I'd wager Arms has better self healing on fights with some adds. Mobility is the exact same, double charge if talented, shorter cd heroic leap if talented.

Well, since thread is Arms Legion Discussion not Arms Legion PvE Discussion many of those situations and things i mentioned were mostly towards PvP where Arms lacks completely any reliable combat healing, also in PvP we are forced to go Def Stance and thats the only one viable option in that talent tier so no lower CD heroic leap.
Fury on the other hand has a frequent heal from BT, can heal significantly better if spec'd into Furious Charge and has enraged regen a lot better def CD than Arms's DBTS, also has access to 3 Heroic Leaps, 3 !!! On the other hand, Fury's healing from BT is -50% in PvP which means pretty much all of his self healing that is overkill but still can heal more than Arms cuz arms cant even heal lol.

In PvE tho, mobility is pretty much the same true, but Fury's healing is still higher especially when you spec into Furious charge, also forgot about artifact talents which improve Fury's healing, that includes not only more healing from BT but also that talent which gives more HP during Enrage, the more HP you got the more you heal from BT, FC, ER as they are all % heals.
Victory Rush is rarely used in PvE except from clearing ADDS and that pitiful 9% MS heal...im shocked u even mentioned it lol.

[thefatty01]

that pitiful 9% MS heal...im shocked u even mentioned it lol

Basically the same thing as Bloodthirst heal

[tonysniper]

I'd use def stance in PVP if there was a glyph to remove the shield.


Execute should hit harder for the rage cost...right now I dont even bother to use execute unless MS OP and CS are on cd and I'm on > 40 rage...back in WoD Execute felt really powerful, now it feels like an overcosted MS.

[thefatty01]

I'd use def stance in PVP if there was a glyph to remove the shield.


Execute should hit harder for the rage cost...right now I dont even bother to use execute unless MS OP and CS are on cd and I'm on > 40 rage...back in WoD Execute felt really powerful, now it feels like an overcosted MS.

Execute is terrible and I don't use Defensive stance in BGs.. maybe arenas, but in BGs I just use my bounding leap.

[Hashcrypt]

I'd use def stance in PVP if there was a glyph to remove the shield.


Execute should hit harder for the rage cost...right now I dont even bother to use execute unless MS OP and CS are on cd and I'm on > 40 rage...back in WoD Execute felt really powerful, now it feels like an overcosted MS.

One of my big complaints with Legions "balanced" PvP.

I went from having 200k+ execute crits....to being happy about seeing maybe 50 or 60. It's quite silly honestly.

[Anuibus]

With dauntless u cant really spent the rage u have, exept u dump it into focused rage. Thats why anuibus test is skewed, he cant spent all the rage efficiently in his testing setup. He should use focused range as rage dump in his test, so he would get a "proper" actual test done and could compare the tactisian resets, and i bet they would be close the the expactations.

Failing to spend rage is irrelevant as far as tactician resets are concerned. Over the course of 50 minutes on a dummy, I spent 16,000 rage including dauntless (20,000 base rage) and was able to proc tactician 125 times. Rage capping in that scenario really means nothing, as not spending rage won't proc tactician. The whole purpose of that test was to prove that dauntless still goes by the base rage value of the ability, and for that the only thing that matters is how much rage you spend and how many times tactician procs as a result.

Then I simmed a 10 minute fight casting only slam to prove that simc was incorrectly going by the reduced cost of the ability as opposed to the base cost, devaluing dauntless.

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...ge=26#post-505

[Holofernes]

with your test u should get exactly the same amount of procs with or without dauntless. 125 procs means that u spent 19,2 k base rage. (125/0,65 %), 20 k baserage would yield 130 procs on average, so i think everything is ok with dauntless? And simcraft gets lower value compared to overpower for dauntless because u rage cap by casting only slam. Did you make sure that your simcraft not using overpower, and had it the same amount of slam casts, so the sim endes after like 5 k slams not after x amount of time?

[thefatty01]

One of my big complaints with Legions "balanced" PvP.

Well I haven't played 110 pvp on warrior, but right now nothing can be balanced because its just the pre-patch. Why the made it 3 weeks long, though... not entirely sure.

[Tellof]

Well I haven't played 110 pvp on warrior, but right now nothing can be balanced because its just the pre-patch. Why the made it 3 weeks long, though... not entirely sure.

Mostly so that players could have a comfortable amount of time to prepare for Legion if they wanted to main something new. I think the invasions have done a pretty good job of that.