[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[Harbour]

So since we dont get any relevant fixes in the last patch, i guess Blizz find us perfectly fine?
I think we need the love for Crusader Strike and Consecration. AOE heal on hit, FoL buff on hit, AOE heal with Consecration. Something. Right now talents give almost zero motivation for us to use these abilities besides pure filler dps. And these are our the only melee abilities. Blizz should give them the purpose, cause without them our "melee healer" fantasy is bullshit. For example I'm forced to pick Crusader's Might to give CS at least some sense and purpose and enhance my "melee healer" gameplay experience, while both LH and BF are probably better option technically.

[Dorkman]

I think I hate Blizzard simply for the fact of make this melee healer shit a meme. I am so tired of seeing suggestions and questions on melee healer stuff when it's been dead and gone for 6 months.

[Deleted]

Hey :-)

Is there an Image or Picture with the best way to level up the Artifact for Holy Palas? Im collecting these for every specc for my guild.

[normiegonnanorm]

new holy pala here, could you please recommend addons that are a MUST for a raider/mythic+ holy pala

[Nedralixx]

Hey :-)

Is there an Image or Picture with the best way to level up the Artifact for Holy Palas? Im collecting these for every specc for my guild.

1) 1/1 Virtues of the Light
2) 3/3 Knight of the Silver Hand
3) 3/3 Shock Treatment
4) 1/1 Vindicator
5) 3/3 Deliver the Light
6) 1/1 Power of the Silver Hand


1) 3/3 Second Sunrise
2) 1/1 Templar of the Light
3) 3/3 Focused Healing
4) 1/1 Protection of Tyr


1) 3/3 Expel the Darkness
2) 3/3 Blessings of the Silver Hand
3) 1/1 The Light Saves

Taken from https://sacredshielding.wordpress.co...-introduction/

[Thundering]

I think I hate Blizzard simply for the fact of make this melee healer shit a meme. I am so tired of seeing suggestions and questions on melee healer stuff when it's been dead and gone for 6 months.

Yeah but some people still want to see paladins that are paladins not priests in plate=(

[Taeldorian]

1) 1/1 Virtues of the Light
2) 3/3 Knight of the Silver Hand
3) 3/3 Shock Treatment
4) 1/1 Vindicator
5) 3/3 Deliver the Light
6) 1/1 Power of the Silver Hand


1) 3/3 Second Sunrise
2) 1/1 Templar of the Light
3) 3/3 Focused Healing
4) 1/1 Protection of Tyr


1) 3/3 Expel the Darkness
2) 3/3 Blessings of the Silver Hand
3) 1/1 The Light Saves

Taken from https://sacredshielding.wordpress.co...-introduction/

Is this right..Ive seen so much different information. The paladin discord had different info, Wowhead has different info and this site here has different info. Getting confused now. I feel like this makes the most sense, but Im really not sure anymore. Too much different info floating around.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah but some people still want to see paladins that are paladins not priests in plate=(

We arent priests in plate. Ive explained this to you a thousand times. Melee dpsing to heal did NOT work. Look at how it turned out for disc. They arent even in melee and they arent being taken to raids. Thats because dpsing to heal does NOT work, its retarded. Nobody wants that. If they want a healer, they want someone who heals.

Every single healer can do damage on the side, but disc is the only one who cant pump out great heals due to the fact they have good damage. Its a shitty situation to be in and honestly Im really glad they decided not to put us there. We still can dps in melee, I dont know why you think we cant. I do it all the time in Mythic prog and Mythic+.

I have no idea why youre having trouble grasping this. Healing through Dps is the dumbest thing that they could have done to us and the tradeoff would have been exactly what happened to disc. We wouldnt be taken to raids because they cant let us do good healing and good damage at the same time, there needs to be a tradeoff for balance reasons.

[Dreamguard]

Is this right..Ive seen so much different information. The paladin discord had different info, Wowhead has different info and this site here has different info. Getting confused now. I feel like this makes the most sense, but Im really not sure anymore. Too much different info floating around.

They should all be correct. I just recently changed our recommendation on Sacred Shielding and Wowhead. Not sure where you saw stuff in Discord, but the #resources channel has the same path as well. Sorry for the confusion, it's my fault.



The only thing to mention is that getting The Light Saves on your way to getting Power of the Silver Hand is perfectly fine, it's just going to delay Protection of Tyr for a little while. The Light Saves is a little better for early dungeons, but Protection of Tyr is way better for raids.

[Taeldorian]

They should all be correct. I just recently changed our recommendation on Sacred Shielding and Wowhead. Not sure where you saw stuff in Discord, but the #resources channel has the same path as well. Sorry for the confusion, it's my fault.

The only thing to mention is that getting The Light Saves on your way to getting Power of the Silver Hand is perfectly fine, it's just going to delay Protection of Tyr for a little while. The Light Saves is a little better for early dungeons, but Protection of Tyr is way better for raids.

The stuff on Discord was linked in a thread yesterday for each of the classes. Its not your fault though, dont worry about it at all. Thank you so much for the picture bro, that definitely makes sense to me. Thanks for the help! I appreciate it.

[Bloodorem]

1) 1/1 Virtues of the Light
2) 3/3 Knight of the Silver Hand
3) 3/3 Shock Treatment
4) 1/1 Vindicator
5) 3/3 Deliver the Light
6) 1/1 Power of the Silver Hand


1) 3/3 Second Sunrise
2) 1/1 Templar of the Light
3) 3/3 Focused Healing
4) 1/1 Protection of Tyr


1) 3/3 Expel the Darkness
2) 3/3 Blessings of the Silver Hand
3) 1/1 The Light Saves

Taken from https://sacredshielding.wordpress.co...-introduction/

While i don't disagree with this order this site is a pile of BS.
positives: plate armor and shields ... one doesnt do anything in raids, the other we DON't have!
negative: low skill floor: this is not true at all, actually i would argue that paladins are one of the most complicated right now.

" Use on Flash of Light as often as possible, while minimizing overheal. The ability_paladin_infusionoflight Infusion of Light buff lasts longer than the spell_holy_searinglight Holy Shock cooldown, so you can potentially hold it for a few GCDs until someone’s health deficit justifies the 50% larger spell_holy_flashheal Flash of Light."
-so they recommend just standing there and doing nothing till someone drops extremly low because you can't do anything else or waste that proc...
"Tyr’s Deliverance – Best used during moderate raid damage to be able to spam "
-so best use it when the extra heal is not needed -got it!

[Taeldorian]

While i don't disagree with this order this site is a pile of BS.
positives: plate armor and shields ... one doesnt do anything in raids, the other we DON't have!
negative: low skill floor: this is not true at all, actually i would argue that paladins are one of the most complicated right now.

" Use on Flash of Light as often as possible, while minimizing overheal. The ability_paladin_infusionoflight Infusion of Light buff lasts longer than the spell_holy_searinglight Holy Shock cooldown, so you can potentially hold it for a few GCDs until someone’s health deficit justifies the 50% larger spell_holy_flashheal Flash of Light."
-so they recommend just standing there and doing nothing till someone drops extremly low because you can't do anything else or waste that proc...
"Tyr’s Deliverance – Best used during moderate raid damage to be able to spam "
-so best use it when the extra heal is not needed -got it!

Our Libram counts as a shield, so it gives the same shit a shield does I believe. Im pretty sure you can mog it into a shield as well, havent tried that yet though. Might be wrong here, but Im pretty sure its counted as one.

[Dreamguard]

While i don't disagree with this order this site is a pile of BS.
positives: plate armor and shields ... one doesnt do anything in raids, the other we DON't have!

Armor is still impactful when soloing, (sometimes) in dungeons, and PvP. We don't have a shield anymore, but our Artifact increases our armor by 30%, which is relatively similar to having a shield. Maybe that's a little misleading, but we're probably only going to have this Artifact weapon for one expansion. I didn't really see a need to make the distinction since we've had shields for 10+ years and are likely to go back to them after Legion.

negative: low skill floor: this is not true at all, actually i would argue that paladins are one of the most complicated right now.

There's a difference between a skill floor and a skill ceiling. I still don't think Paladins are really that much more complicated than any other healer, but the concept of using casted, direct healing is much simpler to understand than healing-over-time abilities, especially in a raid setting where you have to compensate for other healers. That is what I would consider the skill floor. The skill ceiling is more complicated, which I alluded to by saying "There are plenty of areas in which to master the Holy Paladin" in the exact same line.

" Use on Flash of Light as often as possible, while minimizing overheal. The ability_paladin_infusionoflight Infusion of Light buff lasts longer than the spell_holy_searinglight Holy Shock cooldown, so you can potentially hold it for a few GCDs until someone’s health deficit justifies the 50% larger spell_holy_flashheal Flash of Light."
-so they recommend just standing there and doing nothing till someone drops extremly low because you can't do anything else or waste that proc...

"A few GCDs" implies that you're using other abilities like Light of Dawn, Holy Prism, Bestow Faith, etc. With Holy Shock on a longer cooldown, there's not really a need to use it on Holy Light or Flash of Light quickly because we have other abilities we could use in the meantime. As long as it's used before Holy Shock comes back off cooldown, it's fine to hold it for someone to take more damage.

"Tyr’s Deliverance – Best used during moderate raid damage to be able to spam "
-so best use it when the extra heal is not needed -got it!

Sorry, not following this one. Moderate raid damage implies that the healing is needed.

[Floopa]

holy paladin legendary buffs!

tyr's hand of faith buffed from 40% to 60%
uther's guard buffed from 40% to 50%

rest are unchanged

[Taeldorian]

holy paladin legendary buffs!

tyr's hand of faith buffed from 40% to 60%
uther's guard buffed from 40% to 50%

rest are unchanged

Interesting. Gonna look that over tomorrow, thanks for posting that though.

[trm90]

12 sec BoF, 15 sec BoP, 18 sec BoSac - seems OP in world PvP but I can only see BoSac being useful in raids. What do you guys think?

Tyr's Hand + Unbreakable + Artifact works out to a little over 2 min LoH CD which is actually pretty strong TBH, but Rule of Law is too maymaylicious to give up I feel

[Bloodorem]

edit: just to clarify: the site is NOT BS i reacted way to harsh, but still i think its not 100% right

Armor is still impactful when soloing, (sometimes) in dungeons, and PvP. We don't have a shield anymore, but our Artifact increases our armor by 30%, which is relatively similar to having a shield. Maybe that's a little misleading, but we're probably only going to have this Artifact weapon for one expansion. I didn't really see a need to make the distinction since we've had shields for 10+ years and are likely to go back to them after Legion.

ok, Its not something important, but as a guide thats actually mostly focused on higher end pve (no mentions about pvp) its still a non factor. And Given the website said specificly Legion, its just wrong even if it does change again.

There's a difference between a skill floor and a skill ceiling. I still don't think Paladins are really that much more complicated than any other healer, but the concept of using casted, direct healing is much simpler to understand than healing-over-time abilities, especially in a raid setting where you have to compensate for other healers. That is what I would consider the skill floor. The skill ceiling is more complicated, which I alluded to by saying "There are plenty of areas in which to master the Holy Paladin" in the exact same line.

Again we disgree, the concept of paing attention to range -wich is the main concept of the Legion Hpally is far harder to understand than healing over time.
If you say the basic healing is easier because its direct, heals instead of hots OK.

"A few GCDs" implies that you're using other abilities like Light of Dawn, Holy Prism, Bestow Faith, etc. With Holy Shock on a longer cooldown, there's not really a need to use it on Holy Light or Flash of Light quickly because we have other abilities we could use in the meantime. As long as it's used before Holy Shock comes back off cooldown, it's fine to hold it for someone to take more damage.

wich is.. sory but just in conflict with other things you said:
first keep LoD on CD, wich means it ignores this proc, you just cast it when its avaiable
Holy Prism - would mean there are at least 5 people with missing health in wich case you would cast it anyways, so gain no interaction with the proc
Bestow Faith - should be used on CD to on either the tank or predictable dmg, so again no interaction
the question is only relevant if you would cast a Singletarget heal anyway, and there is only the option faster cast or stronger cast.

Sorry, not following this one. Moderate raid damage implies that the healing is needed.

maybe i understood it wrong english is not my main Language: moderate = in moderation , so not -high
in my mind it should be cast at the highest raid dmg spikes to assist in healing, not in the moderate phases where the normal healing should be suffice

[gentle2027]

I have holy paladin and holy priest and have to choose my main character. But you know more about me and I want to know expert's think. I know druids and shaman is really good in beta but I want to play paladin or priest

[Jeathebelle]

Again we disgree, the concept of paing attention to range -wich is the main concept of the Legion Hpally is far harder to understand than healing over time.
If you say the basic healing is easier because its direct, heals instead of hots OK.

No offense but I think you are not quite understanding the difference between skill floor and skill cap.

Skill floor means: how easy is the spec to pick up and get results with? Or another way of thinking about it--how effective will the worst players be with the spec, compared to how effective the worst players of other specs will be? Tic-Tac-Toe, for example, is a game with an extremely low skill floor. It is very easy to pick up the game and play it. Similarly, holy paladins have historically had a very low skill floor. In earlier expansions, spam flash of light. In Highmaul, Holy Shock->Holy Light->Holy Light. And in Legion, though the skill floor has probably increased, pressing micro-cooldowns on cooldown and filling with Flash of Light or Holy Light is a pretty low floor of being able to minimally play the spec. There are certainly healer specs with lower skill floors, but also specs with higher ones.

Skill curve means: what is the rate of increase in effectiveness with respect to skill. A high skill curve means the spec rewards increased skill with greatly increased effectiveness, and penalizes decreasing skill with greatly decreasing effectiveness. Discipline Priest is the obvious example of a very high skill curve. At the very top end of that curve, the most skilled players have very high effectiveness. But the curve drops off rapidly, so even moderately skilled players may have poor effectiveness and poor players result in forums being mobbed with others asking that disc be removed, ineligible for queuing for LFG, etc. Holy Paladin has a much more moderate skill curve.

Skill cap/ceiling means: How hard is the spec to play at it's maximum potential effectiveness, or how effective will the very best players be with the spec, compared to how effective the best players of other specs will be. I think this is what you are actually talking about, while Dream is talking about floor. You are correct that multiple factors such as removal of Illuminated Healing, new proximity mastery, auras, LoD, damage potential, etc have increased the skill cap for Holy Paladin.

wich is.. sory but just in conflict with other things you said:
first keep LoD on CD, wich means it ignores this proc, you just cast it when its avaiable
Holy Prism - would mean there are at least 5 people with missing health in wich case you would cast it anyways, so gain no interaction with the proc
Bestow Faith - should be used on CD to on either the tank or predictable dmg, so again no interaction
the question is only relevant if you would cast a Singletarget heal anyway, and there is only the option faster cast or stronger cast.

I just strongly disagree with you here. In fact, this is one aspect of play paladin can gain increased effectiveness with increased skill. With so many micro cooldowns, as well as the potential to contribute dps in low damage phases, there are absolutely times when you will have the option of using your Infusion of Light immediately versus delaying it while casting other abilities. Mindlessly using it immediately would be an example of mediocre or poor play. You can delay IoL by using other micro cooldowns that may be available, such as Bestow Faith which can be good even if no one is damaged but may be in the future, e.g. a tank; or by casting a dps gcd or two. And thus gain increased benefit from the IoL, if in the interim someone takes damage that will make the fast Holy Light or big Flash of Light more effective healing.

[Bloodorem]

No offense but I think you are not quite understanding the difference between skill floor and skill cap.

Skill floor means: how easy is the spec to pick up and get results with? Or another way of thinking about it--how effective will the worst players be with the spec, compared to how effective the worst players of other specs will be? Tic-Tac-Toe, for example, is a game with an extremely low skill floor. It is very easy to pick up the game and play it. Similarly, holy paladins have historically had a very low skill floor. In earlier expansions, spam flash of light. In Highmaul, Holy Shock->Holy Light->Holy Light. And in Legion, though the skill floor has probably increased, pressing micro-cooldowns on cooldown and filling with Flash of Light or Holy Light is a pretty low floor of being able to minimally play the spec. There are certainly healer specs with lower skill floors, but also specs with higher ones.

Skill curve means: what is the rate of increase in effectiveness with respect to skill. A high skill curve means the spec rewards increased skill with greatly increased effectiveness, and penalizes decreasing skill with greatly decreasing effectiveness. Discipline Priest is the obvious example of a very high skill curve. At the very top end of that curve, the most skilled players have very high effectiveness. But the curve drops off rapidly, so even moderately skilled players may have poor effectiveness and poor players result in forums being mobbed with others asking that disc be removed, ineligible for queuing for LFG, etc. Holy Paladin has a much more moderate skill curve.

Skill cap/ceiling means: How hard is the spec to play at it's maximum potential effectiveness, or how effective will the very best players be with the spec, compared to how effective the best players of other specs will be. I think this is what you are actually talking about, while Dream is talking about floor. You are correct that multiple factors such as removal of Illuminated Healing, new proximity mastery, auras, LoD, damage potential, etc have increased the skill cap for Holy Paladin.

I do understand it, the point is, the skill floor is extremely low on all classes, you got like 6 ability, a view cds etc. im not talking about earlier expansions so i don't give a crap about how it was.
as soon a you talk about not wasting Hot healing your into the skill cap/ skill curve discussion where i think paladin is actually relatively high.

on the contrary because paladins are a class with a cone aoe heal without optical indicator i would say even the skill floor is higher than other classes.

whats your argument that other classes are harder? you instead of giving an argument about why other classes have a higher skillfloor you just say i don't understand what that means.

and just because you brought the argument yes i agree - disc is has a far higher skillfloor, but other classes? monk, Hpriest, Shaman, Druid are in my opinion the same or really close (again not arguing paladin is super hard, its just not the YOLO easy class anymore which the guide suggests)

[EzG]

Are we really arguing on whether pallies are easy or if you play them you can get better easier than other classes or etc. etc. etc.? What has this thread come to.