Elemental, worth the risk?

[Gaucho-]

That's the case for any spec. At most levels of play, skill is more of a defining factor in DPS than class balance.

Very vague. In good guilds where class balance really matters, everyone is equally skilled.

[Chaosbubba]

Elemental has never been at the top for one single reason: It's a hybrid.

This is how it used to be... what they called the "Hybrid tax" but that has been done away with LOOONNNGGG ago. In BC and Cata, boomers were near the top for melee, healing and ranged DPS. I don't know the numbers for beta but i assume they are still pretty far up there. But this is no longer the case. The hybrid tax no longer exists. Blizzard just doesn't seem to know how to make shamans any better in PVE. I will be raiding hardcore mythic come Legion. My guild is shooting for US top 200. I was basically told that if shamans end up being crap, and i can't keep up in DPS, then i will be replaced. I leveled a mage for them for a short time in WoD, so i was told to level the shaman, and level the mage right after, once are both at 110, then keep their artifact knowledge/power as equal as possible in case what they are hearing about shamans turns out to be true.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Very vague. In good guilds where class balance really matters, everyone is equally skilled.

That's why I asked about skill level. Most guilds aren't that good.

[l33t]

Hey all, I know there are numerous threads about this, but it seems like the majority of the complaints for elemental come from the PVP side of things, which is of no interest to me. Speaking strictly PVE, will elemental be as bad as they were at the start of WOD? I have always loved the shaman class, but that first month basically forced me to reroll to be able to contribute to my raid. Just wanted to see what you all have seen in beta and the likely state of elemental going into legion and beyond (with artifacts etc). Thanks!

If I were you, I'd reroll from Ele lightyears ago. Skilled or not, mythic raiding guild or not, you would be a burden to your raid as Ele. Moreso when you have options such as glorious Fire mage (with two more great dps specs as a back-up).

[Kralljin]

The hybrid tax no longer exists. Blizzard just doesn't seem to know how to make shamans any better in PVE.

The hybrid tax no longer exists in terms of Dps, but it does in terms of a hybrid toolkit.

Does a Balance Druid have the same toolkit as a Mage? No, of course not, because Classes need to be unique, the problem is simply that there's no downside on the Mage side, this is the fundamental problem.

[Gaucho-]

At this point Mages are more mobile than some melee specs. On top of various survivability abilities.

[miffy23]

If I were you, I'd reroll from Ele lightyears ago. Skilled or not, mythic raiding guild or not, you would be a burden to your raid as Ele. Moreso when you have options such as glorious Fire mage (with two more great dps specs as a back-up).

While it is true in essence that Mage is a lot stronger for progression - than pretty much all ranged specs, I might add - people also need to remember that no raid team is ever going to consist of 4 Rogues and 8 Mages.

Guilds will want to stack 1 or 2 more mages than other specs, yes, but it is ridiculously inefficient for gearing to overstack - not to mention balancing out different types of utility, buffs etc.

In essence - if your guild already has 4-5 Mages, rerolling to it is probably a dumb move. There are spots for Balance, Ele, etc even at the highest level, some will take this, others that to fill up.

[Jotaux]

While it is true in essence that Mage is a lot stronger for progression - than pretty much all ranged specs, I might add - people also need to remember that no raid team is ever going to consist of 4 Rogues and 8 Mages.

Guilds will want to stack 1 or 2 more mages than other specs, yes, but it is ridiculously inefficient for gearing to overstack - not to mention balancing out different types of utility, buffs etc.

In essence - if your guild already has 4-5 Mages, rerolling to it is probably a dumb move. There are spots for Balance, Ele, etc even at the highest level, some will take this, others that to fill up.

Of course not, they will also grab warlocks, hunters, warriors, druids, etc. Why gimp the raid with elemental when you have so many more options.

[miffy23]

Of course not, they will also grab warlocks, hunters, warriors, druids, etc. Why gimp the raid with elemental when you have so many more options.

Ele is currently outperforming Balance, 2/3 Warlock specs, Shadow without Surrender talent, etc on Beta.
Don't know why you mention Warrior when the discussion is about ranged slots, but ok.

[Jotaux]

Ele is currently outperforming Balance, 2/3 Warlock specs, Shadow without Surrender talent, etc on Beta.
Don't know why you mention Warrior when the discussion is about ranged slots, but ok.

Then why did you mention rogues? Elemental has also moved below all those classes in the latest sims.

[miffy23]

Then why did you mention rogues? Elemental has also moved below all those classes in the latest sims.

I mentioned 4 Rogues/8 Mages as a hypothetical extreme, not to compare Rogues with Elementals.
No ranged comp will consist of 90%+ Mages, ever, that was the point. And the other ranged specs are much more in line with Elemental and have comparable weaknesses when matched with Mages.

Right now I would say that only Mages, Hunters and 1 Lock per ranged comp have secured spots, Shadow, Balance, Ele and extra Locks will battle it out for the rest. It mostly comes down to where numbers end up before raids open. They're still juggling Shadow back and forth, Locks are in a very poor spot overall, Balance is meh. Elemental is not the only spec that struggles to compete with Mages, is the point.

The last Sims I've seen (which all must be taken with heavy pinches of salt right now either way) saw Elemental outperform the specs I mentioned above on Patchwerk. These will change obviously, but it's clear that Elemental is not trailing most of the other ranged specs apart from Mage by any great margin, and is in fact bobbing up and down between beating them and trailing them closely. There are a few outliers like Shadow with Surrender, but as I said they are still fiddling with that - and it is unlikely to be viable for many fights due to its nature.

[Riistov]

I would say its worse than WoD.

Not even close. Ele is going to be fairly competitive, in a much better state than WoD.

[Nyel]

I would say its worse than WoD.

Nothing can be worse for Elemental Shamans than WoD.

[Deleted]

Then why did you mention rogues? Elemental has also moved below all those classes in the latest sims.

Sims between classes doesnt mean anything for now. The APL aren't even completed and theres still a lot of bugs.

Sims between the same spec are good indicators, sims between classes just aren't.

[Gaucho-]

Ele is currently outperforming Balance, 2/3 Warlock specs, Shadow without Surrender talent, etc on Beta.
Don't know why you mention Warrior when the discussion is about ranged slots, but ok.

Dunno where you are getting your numbers from, but the latest numbers I've seen on Earthshrine after the trinket tuning are these:

http://collision.heroicstrike.org/20...25T183344.html

[miffy23]

Dunno where you are getting your numbers from, but the latest numbers I've seen on Earthshrine after the trinket tuning are these:

http://collision.heroicstrike.org/20...25T183344.html

As I said before, numbers change every few days atm. Few days ago Ele was ahead of Balance by roughly the same margin that Balance is ahead of Ele in that chart. Also posted on Earthshrine.

[Deleted]

The shaman class was the last one to get to lvl 100 for me, so I leveled mine as elemental from 90 to 100 with legion invasions.

I HATED IT!

It was zero fun to bring down those demons, wether it was 1on1 or 1v3. I had to cast all the time and I couldn't really stop them from coming into meele range. Neither do they die before they get into meele. Those elementals don't keep aggro too well and their CDs are too long anyway. Losing like 30% to 80% after each small group of demons was no fun. Oh.. and did I mention that I had to cast? (yeah.. surprising for a caster class.. ;-) )

If it's annonying to keep dumb PvE mobs at range, I don't even want to imagine how it is in rated PvP. Miraculously I was even top DPS a few times in random BGs, obviously it's enough to spam flame shock on any target in range to fish for instant casts... because, well... casting in PvP is not fun for an ele shaman.

I also played other casters, but only pre-prepatch times. I enjoyed frost mage and I enjoyed shadow priest (not sure if they are still fun, especially the frost mage).

/rant end

[Gaucho-]

As I said before, numbers change every few days atm. Few days ago Ele was ahead of Balance by roughly the same margin that Balance is ahead of Ele in that chart. Also posted on Earthshrine.

Never seen such logs. And the general opinion of Elemental on Earthshrine is that it's underwhelming. And this is coming from people who not only play this spec but also do major theory crafting for it.

[Pantsless]

Just for fun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpDvHRXQfiw

[miffy23]

Never seen such logs. And the general opinion of Elemental on Earthshrine is that it's underwhelming. And this is coming from people who not only play this spec but also do major theory crafting for it.

Please point out to me where I have stated the opposite. I have stated on multiple occasions, in fact in nearly every post that it is underwhelming and not as good as most other ranged specs. This does not make the spec "shit" and unplayable for Mythic however - and this is what I've mostly been responding to, wild exaggeration and baseless dismissal.

With respect, maybe you don't browse there as actively, because there have been multiple different sims (not logs) over the past few weeks that have seen Ele ahead of several other ranged specs. Still too low, but ahead. Recent ones have again changed after the last hotfix, and they will change again before raids are live no doubt.

- - - Updated - - -

Just for fun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpDvHRXQfiw

Psst what do they know