cryptologist/ language expert question

[Shalcker]

I feel like more people need to watch Contact.

Actually this will be a lot more appropriate:



Since it is based on short story exactly about translator.

[Theodarzna]

Keep in mind that such an signal would be designed to hopefully be translatable with just the signal and a certain level of understanding of the universe, thus it is a distinctly different problem from trying to translate an alien language.

Try designing a signal translatable to a dolphin and you will begin to understand the utter difficulty of the situation.

Now put that dolphin on another planet with a few thousand years between us. Not only would the original senders be dead, but by the time we got a return signal we have no idea what sort of language they would have.

The level of understanding of the universe might also be different, its possible, nay probable, that their scientific understandings are different, possible more accurate ect. We assume they have the same exact knowledge of the universe as us. If its sufficiently more advanced it might appear as incomprehensible gibberish.

[alzoron]

Imagine describing a burrito to an alien who has never heard or seen your language using your language. Also, they've never seen a burrito before or anything even resembling a burrito. Oh yeah, and on their world all the life gains energy through osmosis and sunlight or something and ingestion is totally unheard of for them.

[Shadowferal]

...and then there's the added assumption of a carbon-based life-form with similar perceptions, that doesn't communicate via djflsjudosjudfndf, and...dkjnsdlsndsdfvsdvf...using dklnfbkdf;bk;db...but with...................................(what? you can't read that?)

[Vanyali]

The abstract math people that people are likely to communicate has very few numbers - and assuming these aliens want to communicate they should be smart enough to write down something like: ʖ ȵ ϫ Щ δ Δʖ ʖʖ ȵʖ ϫʖ Щʖ δʖ Δȵ and we will understand their number system.

For symbols I would say that figuring out what symbols are the same is a bigger problem - e.g. consider dpD - how can we know that rotation does matter (so p and d are different), but d and D are the same? And even worse with handwriting.
But they will likely be sending some form of binary code (or similarly) and assuming they want to communicate with us - and are reasonable intelligent I don't believe that will be a major problem.

If they don't want to communicate it is unlikely we will be able to get a signal at all, as the signal will be too weak to travel between stars (or actually encrypted to be unreadable).

You're calculating on a base10 system that is recorded in the same way for all of these.

That isn't even true on earth.

[PixelFox]

It's a hoax. Find something real to get excited about.

[Endus]

I feel like the most important thing people need to recognize about the possibility of alien life is that all life on this planet shares a genetic connection. We almost certainly would have more in common with carpenter ants and rutabagas, in terms of the basics of life, than we would with any alien species we encounter. Can we communicate with ants or rutabagas? Is that a silly question?

It's even more silly when it comes to other intelligences. Outside of pure mathematics, the possibility that we could approach an understanding on even basic concepts is almost nil. Heck, just look at the diversity of communications methods used by Earth species; pheromones, rythmic movement, emitted light patterns, color variations, all above and beyond what we as humans use. We can't even effectively communicate with dolphins or chimpanzees, our closest competitors in intelligence. With chimps, we think we're approximating communication, but there's so much we don't know, and they're incredibly closely related to us, in terms of development.

Our best hope is that whatever we encounter is both much smarter and more intellectually flexible than we are, and benign. So that rather than demanding that the chimps (us) speak their language, they learn Chimp, to speak to us. Which I'll note we don't really do, with chimpanzee, nor dolphins.

[Forogil]

You're calculating on a base10 system that is recorded in the same way for all of these.

No, I am not calculating on a base 10 system. Most of the time I use computers to calculate for me and they use a binary floating point system - but the details of that doesn't matter (in most cases).

Most math isn't that concerned with specific numbers anyway - so how we record them doesn't matter much.

If the system isn't a positional system (but e.g. Roman numerals) you still start by listing the small integers, and then introduce a multiplication symbol to get to the larger ones (and we would wonder how they managed to send signals through space). If they only use a simple tally system ( I II III IIII IIIII IIIIII ...) it's best to assume that they are just joking with us.

The point is still that numbers are easy - other symbols more complicated, and we basically have to assume that they want to communicate with others - since they will otherwise use compression to make the signal close to noise.

[Vanyali]

No, I am not calculating on a base 10 system. Most of the time I use computers to calculate for me and they use a binary floating point system - but the details of that doesn't matter (in most cases).

Most math isn't that concerned with specific numbers anyway - so how we record them doesn't matter much.

If the system isn't a positional system (but e.g. Roman numerals) you still start by listing the small integers, and then introduce a multiplication symbol to get to the larger ones (and we would wonder how they managed to send signals through space). If they only use a simple tally system ( I II III IIII IIIII IIIIII ...) it's best to assume that they are just joking with us.

Equations require specific symbols, both numerical and otherwise, which was my point in the original post.

Which is where things start getting sketchy. For example, old texts in English? Even if in modern english they'd be nigh unreadable for modern people - spaces weren't a thing you did. Now add that to symbols we have zero reference to, in a system we have one (maybe two) examples of and "we'd recognize mathematical equations" falls apart super quickly.

It's also assuming their writing is based on a visual system, which is fairly unlikely to be the case (smell, touch and hearing tend to be more superior in a survival sense), which means we could get a message that's to all intents and purposes a blank sheet of paper to our eyes.

[ro9ue]

We use pictures and math based messages in the hope that if an alien species intercepts one of our signals that they would invest the time into deciphering it. Where your average layperson wouldn't be able to decipher it, a team of people who study signals, language, communication, etc have a chance of coming up with something.

This is what we put on Voyager





This is an explanation of it



The idea is that simply diagrams and binary should be universal across any intelligent species thats interested/capable of scientific thought. Binary isn't exactly something we invented, its seen as the logical conclusion to solve a number of problems. We use 1s and 0s, aliens might use As and Bs, but binary patterns aren't impossible to pick up on if you're a mathematician/computer scientist.

I still think that whole thing assumes too much about how another intelligent species would evolve. Would it even have the same sensory capabilities as us? (sight, etc) I think the general argument that's made is light is such a prominent force in the universe, so some sort of sight is likely to evolve.

But at the end of the day, we have only ever perceived the world through our native-earth based senses (which most animals on earth have some form of).

There might be a planet somewhere in a crazy part of the universe that has life that evolved in a completely unexpected way. I still think it's crazy that we call earth-like planets we find "planets with the potential to hold life", when what it really means is "planets with the potential to hold life similar to the kind we are aware of".

There might be an extremely hostile planet next to a black hole where life has evolved. We can't assume too much about the nature of life when there is no pattern to follow since we are the only planet with it that we know of.

We earthlings should be more open-minded.

[Forogil]

Equations require specific symbols, both numerical and otherwise, which was my point in the original post.

Which is where things start getting sketchy. For example, old texts in English? Even if in modern english they'd be nigh unreadable for modern people - spaces weren't a thing you did. Now add that to symbols we have zero reference to, in a system we have one (maybe two) examples of and "we'd recognize mathematical equations" falls apart super quickly.

The old texts in English weren't trying to communicate with people of the modern age.

If the aliens don't try to communicate they will likely use compression and have messages so close to the noise level that we will not notice them.

It's also assuming their writing is based on a visual system, which is fairly unlikely to be the case (smell, touch and hearing tend to be more superior in a survival sense), which means we could get a message that's to all intents and purposes a blank sheet of paper to our eyes.

No, we will likely be receiving a radio signal (or light or some other part of the EM-spectrum), not a written text, smell, touch, or sound.

[Vanyali]

The old texts in English weren't trying to communicate with people of the modern age.

If the aliens don't try to communicate they will likely use compression and have messages so close to the noise level that we will not notice them.


No, we will likely be receiving a radio signal (or light or some other part of the EM-spectrum), not a written text, smell, touch, or sound.

"symbols would be different but I would think if we sent or received something like the 4 kinematics equations (physics equations used to solve for distance, velocity, acceleration, time, and foundation of many of physics equations), shouldn't we be able to at least figure out what one or another is trying to communicate. If both parties know the equations then both would at least know each other know the foundations of physics. A lot can be extrapolated from that common ground, in theory. "

You're moving the conversation past what it was about.

And old texts were meant to communicate with anyone using English, and are (mainly) in modern English. They're just not in a standard we use anymore (mostly because of printers). That was the point. Standards of a species that might not even be visual, as we are, aren't going to follow the same format even in the most minor of ways.

[May90]

He-he, this isn't a question you will find a response to on forums. The debate on this, and even some scientific research, has been going on for many-many decades, and it is still not clear whether there exists some kind of "universal" language which all living beings are theoretically able to translate.

I would assume some kind of metaphorical message can be sent. For example, if their civilization has destroyed itself, then they can send out radio signal that, first, follows a set of radio waves with frequencies matching those of a nuclear explosion, and then follows the frequencies of radio-waves happening during nuclear winter, but of greater amplitude, so it is clear that this is what they are focusing their message on. A very advanced civilization, knowing all these frequencies, could be able to interpret the message and understand the meaning.

I feel like more people need to watch Contact.

Movies like that always have the most disappointing reveals ever. I expected to see actual aliens, and instead we got some weird sequence that doesn't show anything, doesn't explain anything, and looks more fantastic than scientific... Damn it.

The Arrival, now that's the thing!

[PACOX]

I do wonder what the Voyager message would look like if it were transcribed today, we've learned a lot since then - even on the subject of how we would communicate with an alien species.

[Forogil]

"symbols would be different but I would think if we sent or received something like the 4 kinematics equations (physics equations used to solve for distance, velocity, acceleration, time, and foundation of many of physics equations), shouldn't we be able to at least figure out what one or another is trying to communicate. If both parties know the equations then both would at least know each other know the foundations of physics. A lot can be extrapolated from that common ground, in theory. "

Yes, including the fact that we are both using radio waves (and/or other parts of EM-spectrum) to communicate and we know about the galaxy and likely want to communicate - since it is otherwise likely that they use compression and are so close to the noise-level for the target that we will not notice it.

And old texts were meant to communicate with anyone using English, and are (mainly) in modern English.

An incorrect assumption; the ones who wrote those texts did in many cases not intend them for everyone - some deliberately tried to restrict them - others didn't think about others.

Some deliberately tried to communicate to everyone - and coincidentally that has helped us decipher their languages.

They're just not in a standard we use anymore (mostly because of printers). That was the point. Standards of a species that might not even be visual, as we are, aren't going to follow the same format even in the most minor of ways.

They (assumedly) inhabit the same universe - with the same physical laws etc. Even without vision we could feel our way across the gold plates of voyager - and part of it is engraving of sound, I assume a species using sound will need some way of storing their information.

A more likely problem would be that the information is stored much more densely - by using individual atoms, but the basic idea of Voyager (and of "Contact") is that you also have something so coarse-grained that the artifact will be noticed, and then the fine-grained parts can be analyzed. If we just randomly found a super-DVD from an alien species lying on the ground it is unlikely that we would start analyzing it since we wouldn't notice anything odd with it (and the information itself would likely be compressed and possible region-locked so we couldn't read it anyway).

[Tuor]

If the aliens don't try to communicate they will likely use compression and have messages so close to the noise level that we will not notice them.

You suposing that radio is actually the only viable way to send messages, and that isn't true even here on Earth, fiber optics is a lot better.

One thing you need to know about radio, we have been forced to believe that Earth is inside a 100LY radio-electric bubble caused by us, the problem here is that radio losts its strenght quite easely, and anyone at home can confirm that, because once in a whille they lost a radio signal because of a thunderstorm for example. Another good example are human probes, do you know how har is to comunicate with the voyager probe at this point? The radio signal is so week that the probe has to allign directly to Earth, and a simple miss alignement of no more then a centimeter can cause the signal to completly miss the Earth.

All of this just to say, that if the sign looks like noise, that is most likely the signal as lost its strenght and became corrupt.

No, we will likely be receiving a radio signal (or light or some other part of the EM-spectrum), not a written text, smell, touch, or sound.

Radio is perhaps the most uneficient form of spreading comunication we know, very eficient at short ranges, but once it loses its strenght, the signal becomes corrupt, and the message is lost.

I was speaking in my other post, that we have to presume the vehicle that transports the message, compared to radio, light is a lot more eficient, compared to what we still yet to learn, it might be a joke. Take this example, recently, some scientists have discovered that some particles are conected, so, if we destroy one, the other one might just disapear, what is even funny, is that this information channel used to allow these particles to comunicate betwin eachother, seems to not obbey to the most basic law of modern physics, that is, the speed of light, so, if you had a particle here on Earth, Milky Way, and its conected particle was in Andromeda galaxy, if you destroyed the one here on Earth, the other on Andromeda would react intantly. Have you imagined if Aliens have understood how this works, and are currently using this mechanics to transport information? If you can have instant information why should we wait several light years for it??

[Forogil]

You suposing that radio is actually the only viable way to send messages, and that isn't true even here on Earth, fiber optics is a lot better.

I have tried to write radio - or other parts other EM-spectrum most times. Fiber optics use light, which is part of the EM-spectrum.

One thing you need to know about radio, we have been forced to believe that Earth is inside a 100LY radio-electric bubble caused by us, the problem here is that radio losts its strenght quite easely, and anyone at home can confirm that, because once in a whille they lost a radio signal because of a thunderstorm for example.

Using visible light as in fiber optic is no better, have you tried going outside in a thunderstorm and looking?
Additionally you have to outshine the star.

Radio is perhaps the most uneficient form of spreading comunication we know, very eficient at short ranges, but once it loses its strenght, the signal becomes corrupt, and the message is lost.

Most inefficient - except for all the others. All known signals: EM-spectrum (radio, microwave, light, x-ray, infrared, UV), gravity waves decay at least according to at least inverse square laws if spread in all directions - and the point about aliens is that we don't know where they are.

Take this example, recently, some scientists have discovered that some particles are conected, so, if we destroy one, the other one might just disapear, what is even funny, is that this information channel

Quantum entanglement cannot be used to communicate information, so it is not an information channel.
There are many who peddle half-truths about quantum things - but the simple fact is that it is physically impossible to send any information that way (with information defined in the usual way).

- - - Updated - - -

Try designing a signal translatable to a dolphin and you will begin to understand the utter difficulty of the situation.

Humans have managed to communicate with dolphins and chimps. We humans designed the common language, they didn't and the dolphins haven't explained their own language to us.

The level of understanding of the universe might also be different, its possible, nay probable, that their scientific understandings are different, possible more accurate ect. We assume they have the same exact knowledge of the universe as us. If its sufficiently more advanced it might appear as incomprehensible gibberish.

Without sufficient understanding they will not be able to receive and send any signals that crosses between stars. It doesn't matter if they are amoebas or dolphins on a planet - if they cannot send and receive interstellar messages we cannot communicate.

It is possible that their statements are gibberish - but more likely that they see our level as a useful approximation, similarly as we see Newtonian physics.

[Theodarzna]

Humans have managed to communicate with dolphins and chimps. We humans designed the common language, they didn't and the dolphins haven't explained their own language to us.


Without sufficient understanding they will not be able to receive and send any signals that crosses between stars. It doesn't matter if they are amoebas or dolphins on a planet - if they cannot send and receive interstellar messages we cannot communicate.

It is possible that their statements are gibberish - but more likely that they see our level as a useful approximation, similarly as we see Newtonian physics.

Very basic communication, we haven't exactly discussed Socrates with Harambe's son yet, nor explained the Physics of Liquids to a Dolphin. We also have the advantage that Dolphins and Chimps are not alien to us. Chimps are our closest species relative and Dolphins are fellow mammals even. The further you go on the tree of life from us the harder the gap is to cross. Now explain physics to a Raven.

Now up the difficulty, you must now cross a chasm that is both made of space and time (It could be a century before a reply is heard and a century more until we get a return signal) AND that of the separate trees of life.

[Shadowferal]

If the aliens don't try to communicate they will likely use compression and have messages so close to the noise level that we will not notice them.
No, we will likely be receiving a radio signal (or light or some other part of the EM-spectrum), not a written text, smell, touch, or sound.

You're making assumptions.
And really bad ones.

Most if not all life on Earth is carbon-based. We can speculate about perceptions on such life.
Somewhere else in the universe however we wouldn't even have a clue where to begin with such speculation for the simple reason that we don't know how they perceive data.

And then there's the assumption that such a species would even use the EM spectrum at all.

[Endus]

Very basic communication, we haven't exactly discussed Socrates with Harambe's son yet, nor explained the Physics of Liquids to a Dolphin.

And I think that's what's most critical. Even after some relatively concerted attempts to develop communication, there is still a LOT of question as to whether we ARE communicating across that species barrier, or if we've simply built our own version of a Chinese Box. Yes, we can get dolphins to do what we ask under test conditions, but we can train a dog to react to a command, too; that's not "communication". Particularly not when communication necessarily requires two-way messaging.

Hell, even if you want to make the case that dolphins and chimps can communicate with us in human terms, I'm gonna swing back to pointing out that they have learned to communicate on our terms, but we apparently still can't figure out how to communicate on theirs. We can get chimps to use a form of sign language, but we can't "speak chimpanzee". And we're supposed to be the smart, adaptable ones? This is a big reason why I'm doubtful how clear that communication actually is.