Do you think blizzard will fix the poor state of warlocks in legion???

[Marrilaife]

Do you think blizzard will fix the poor state of all dps casters except mage in legion???

ftfy

ftfy

Every other caster has stupid ramp up times which makes them look bad in dungeons, and now dungeons are more important in progression and gearing up process.

[Deleted]

It makes sense but at the same time it is a motivation killer.

AoE is awful and clunky for Destruction. I see awful numbers with that all the time

It shouldnt be a motivation killer though, since you might experience this with another class too. Also to not see great numbers at 110 with lvling quest gear is to expected. I understand how it is to come after a long break, because i ve been there. There are some thing that have changed and that you ll need to adjust to. i ll try to explain.

1) Most casters (all?) have rump up times to archieve good dmg, though destruction doesnt suffer as much (still you have to build shards though). It has good on demand dmg, excellent cleave and by far the best and most reliable opener of the warlock specs with portals and lord of flames.

2)Dungeons are not kind to ramp up dpsers. Esp normal dungeons where things die really fast.

3)Tanks do a lot more dmg now. Esp in aoe trash situations. Dont get mad when you are close to tank dmg in aoe and your ilvl is 788. Its wierd but its the same case as lvl 103 outdpsing fresh 110. Ppl are just not used to it.

4)Chaos bolt has changed a lot. Its not the hardest hitting nuke in the game anymore. You wont see the mop kind dmg of chaos bolt. Thats because its meant to be spammed more, cleaved much more and part of its former dmg has gone to the allways ticking immolate and the portals. Portals are now your "burst" nuke.

5)Havoc has changed also. Its a lot more powerfull and its meant to be used much more. Lets say if u can have 100% uptime on havoc with talent on 2 target cleave you will obliderate every other dps. If you cant use it (pure single target dummy) you will do below average dmg. Its what makes destruction actually.

6)As others have said a more aoe oriented build is more usefull in the current content (dungeons). That means you will take Cataclysm and grimoire of sac and shadowburn. Also FnB is great. Use cataclysm also on single target (if you are not expecting adds to jump in soon)

Thats all i can think atm. I bet the feeling of destroyed motivation you get will go away once you start gearing up and you reach powerspikes on your artifact, while at the same time you ll get more familiar with your spec and your rotations.

Besides plz...warrior? Druid? why be smthing pathetic when you can be a warlock? (just watch haters inc lol)

[Amonthar]

With what talents? What item level? What numbers are you comparing yourself to? With that post, I can't tell if you are a terrible player, misinformed, or just expect to be among the current top DPS specs, which we aren't.

I could have become absolutely dreadful over my two year hiatus, but I am not sure. I figured out my rotation which is basically what is listed here:

http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/destruc...owns-abilities

My item level is 788 now. I get around 100k dps or so usually but with heavy movement it goes down a little. Cleave is OK.

My build as Destruction:
1 or 2 (testing this out),1 ,1, 1, 3, 2, 3

I just want to be competitive and right now I'm not. I am changing things up and trying them out but it isn't working. I'm just wondering what it is I need to do in order to be competitive. I really Wang to play my Warlock but struggling due to what appears to be gear more so than playstyle is burning me out very fast from my favorite class. I will take all suggestions and go over them as I can go up a lot from where I am now.

It shouldnt be a motivation killer though, since you might experience this with another class too. Also to not see great numbers at 110 with lvling quest gear is to expected. I understand how it is to come after a long break, because i ve been there. There are some thing that have changed and that you ll need to adjust to. i ll try to explain.

1) Most casters (all?) have rump up times to archieve good dmg, though destruction doesnt suffer as much (still you have to build shards though). It has good on demand dmg, excellent cleave and by far the best and most reliable opener of the warlock specs with portals and lord of flames.

2)Dungeons are not kind to ramp up dpsers. Esp normal dungeons where things die really fast.

3)Tanks do a lot more dmg now. Esp in aoe trash situations. Dont get mad when you are close to tank dmg in aoe and your ilvl is 788. Its wierd but its the same case as lvl 103 outdpsing fresh 110. Ppl are just not used to it.

4)Chaos bolt has changed a lot. Its not the hardest hitting nuke in the game anymore. You wont see the mop kind dmg of chaos bolt. Thats because its meant to be spammed more, cleaved much more and part of its former dmg has gone to the allways ticking immolate and the portals. Portals are now your "burst" nuke.

5)Havoc has changed also. Its a lot more powerfull and its meant to be used much more. Lets say if u can have 100% uptime on havoc with talent on 2 target cleave you will obliderate every other dps. If you cant use it (pure single target dummy) you will do below average dmg. Its what makes destruction actually.

6)As others have said a more aoe oriented build is more usefull in the current content (dungeons). That means you will take Cataclysm and grimoire of sac and shadowburn. Also FnB is great. Use cataclysm also on single target (if you are not expecting adds to jump in soon)

Thats all i can think atm. I bet the feeling of destroyed motivation you get will go away once you start gearing up and you reach powerspikes on your artifact, while at the same time you ll get more familiar with your spec and your rotations.

Besides plz...warrior? Druid? why be smthing pathetic when you can be a warlock? (just watch haters inc lol)

Thanks, I will look at the talents. I do enjoy tanking on my Druid a lot and the Warrior tanking was fun as well.

[Deleted]

I could have become absolutely dreadful over my two year hiatus, but I am not sure. I figured out my rotation which is basically what is listed here:

http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/destruc...owns-abilities

My item level is 788 now. I get around 100k dps or so usually but with heavy movement it goes down a little. Cleave is OK.

My build as Destruction:
1 or 2 (testing this out),1 ,1, 1, 3, 2, 3

I just want to be competitive and right now I'm not. I am changing things up and trying them out but it isn't working. I'm just wondering what it is I need to do in order to be competitive. I really Wang to play my Warlock but struggling due to what appears to be gear more so than playstyle is burning me out very fast from my favorite class. I will take all suggestions and go over them as I can go up a lot from where I am now.

Well, your ilvl is horrible. What numbers are you expecting to pull with that ilvl? Your talent build is also very single target centric. Cataclysm alone makes dungeon AoE much more bearable. GoSac is pretty much also a must have in my experience, AoE-wise, since it seems to have seperate RPPM for each target (RoF and Immolate, not Fire and Brimstone as far as I know).

Artifact ability + Doomguard / Lord of flames + Eradication and your dps should be fine single target. Fine as in you can pull your weight, not fine as in you will top meters (Ever, really).

What artifact traits did you go for?

[Jessicka]

It shouldnt be a motivation killer though, since you might experience this with another class too. Also to not see great numbers at 110 with lvling quest gear is to expected. I understand how it is to come after a long break, because i ve been there. There are some thing that have changed and that you ll need to adjust to. i ll try to explain.

1) Most casters (all?) have rump up times to archieve good dmg, though destruction doesnt suffer as much (still you have to build shards though). It has good on demand dmg, excellent cleave and by far the best and most reliable opener of the warlock specs with portals and lord of flames.

2)Dungeons are not kind to ramp up dpsers. Esp normal dungeons where things die really fast.

3)Tanks do a lot more dmg now. Esp in aoe trash situations. Dont get mad when you are close to tank dmg in aoe and your ilvl is 788. Its wierd but its the same case as lvl 103 outdpsing fresh 110. Ppl are just not used to it.

4)Chaos bolt has changed a lot. Its not the hardest hitting nuke in the game anymore. You wont see the mop kind dmg of chaos bolt. Thats because its meant to be spammed more, cleaved much more and part of its former dmg has gone to the allways ticking immolate and the portals. Portals are now your "burst" nuke.

5)Havoc has changed also. Its a lot more powerfull and its meant to be used much more. Lets say if u can have 100% uptime on havoc with talent on 2 target cleave you will obliderate every other dps. If you cant use it (pure single target dummy) you will do below average dmg. Its what makes destruction actually.

6)As others have said a more aoe oriented build is more usefull in the current content (dungeons). That means you will take Cataclysm and grimoire of sac and shadowburn. Also FnB is great. Use cataclysm also on single target (if you are not expecting adds to jump in soon)

Thats all i can think atm. I bet the feeling of destroyed motivation you get will go away once you start gearing up and you reach powerspikes on your artifact, while at the same time you ll get more familiar with your spec and your rotations.

Besides plz...warrior? Druid? why be smthing pathetic when you can be a warlock? (just watch haters inc lol)

I play a Mage, Arcane has some ramp up but Frost and Fire are pretty much on demand. Indeed you can talent into on-demand if you feel there isn't enough there for all three specs. Even the much maligned Rune of Power is actually a really nice cooldown now, with charges, like we used to have.

There is ramp-up with Shadow Priest, I'll give you that; but again within the rotation and talents there's a toolkit there that is adaptable to the dynamism of encouters. AoE is pretty lamentable, but the toolkit is there if only they'd buff the numbers. I really enjoyed how it was playing pre-patch, which even though the numbers suck, that's a far cry from how I feel about Warlocks. I'd have levelled this one too, but 3 characters was too big an ask and when it came down to it, I've never played Holy and I'm the Worst Disc Priest EU should people want me to heal, which is pretty much inevitable.

Balance I don't really know enough about to comment.

Even still, MoP Demonology had ramp up; but it wasn't this absurd level of ramp up, and it was popular as a spec even when it was toned down in SoO. Affliction in Cataclysm and Wrath had ramp up. Affliction in Cataclysm was in fact described by one developer as one of the smoothest best designed specs they'd done. All of these built on the ramp up into strong executes that really felt like a pay-off for it. None of our specs now have an execute, but we've been given even more ramp up to get to that middling flatline.

[Amonthar]

Well, your ilvl is horrible. What numbers are you expecting to pull with that ilvl? Your talent build is also very single target centric. Cataclysm alone makes dungeon AoE much more bearable. GoSac is pretty much also a must have in my experience, AoE-wise, since it seems to have seperate RPPM for each target (RoF and Immolate, not Fire and Brimstone as far as I know).

Artifact ability + Doomguard / Lord of flames + Eradication and your dps should be fine single target. Fine as in you can pull your weight, not fine as in you will top meters (Ever, really).

What artifact traits did you go for?

I wasn't expecting to get beaten by people much lower level than me was the main thing. That has been explained. I thought my dps would be higher than it is. I plan to look over talents from the suggestions provided.

For the adtifact, I followed the guide on Icy Veins and am now headed to the upper part of it, if that makes sense. I just need better gear and go from there. Thanks.

[Deleted]

I play a Mage, Arcane has some ramp up but Frost and Fire are pretty much on demand. Indeed you can talent into on-demand if you feel there isn't enough there for all three specs. Even the much maligned Rune of Power is actually a really nice cooldown now, with charges, like we used to have.

There is ramp-up with Shadow Priest, I'll give you that; but again within the rotation and talents there's a toolkit there that is adaptable to the dynamism of encouters. AoE is pretty lamentable, but the toolkit is there if only they'd buff the numbers. I really enjoyed how it was playing pre-patch, which even though the numbers suck, that's a far cry from how I feel about Warlocks. I'd have levelled this one too, but 3 characters was too big an ask and when it came down to it, I've never played Holy and I'm the Worst Disc Priest EU should people want me to heal, which is pretty much inevitable.

Balance I don't really know enough about to comment.

Even still, MoP Demonology had ramp up; but it wasn't this absurd level of ramp up, and it was popular as a spec even when it was toned down in SoO. Affliction in Cataclysm and Wrath had ramp up. Affliction in Cataclysm was in fact described by one developer as one of the smoothest best designed specs they'd done. All of these built on the ramp up into strong executes that really felt like a pay-off for it. None of our specs now have an execute, but we've been given even more ramp up to get to that middling flatline.

I am playing demonology atm and yes i agree that the ramp up is insane, though i find it more annoying in pvp cause you have to cast like 4 shadowbolts to start doing smthing while your enemy is smashing your head with full cds and jumping around like a monkey. That aside, in pve i dont agree that there isnt a payoff for the rampup time..Your dps doesnt have big spikes it just goes higher and higher while most other speccs do "burst windows" and in the meantime try to keep the dps not to fall to much till next burst window comes. Your only limitation appart from some boss mechanics which make you start over (like going immune for some time) is when you will fuck up (what i mean is that its predictable, you dont have "oh shit i didnt get any procs" moments).
I also find that as far as current content goes its toolkit is fine as long as you take implosion and you can adapt in almost any situation. Actually i dont find any other downside in the spec other than rampup time, and if that downside didnt exist it would probably lead to toning down the spec. Even target switching is not a problem tbh. Is it the best at taking priority targets?ofc no, but you sure do your part on priority targets.

The mythic dungeon group i am playing with consists of outlaw, hunter, demonology (allmost same ilvl). Up till now we are all allmost equall. Sometimes i am top, sometimes i am 3rd but the dps range is like +-5 dps on bosses (on heavy movement i will drop 15k dps from first, while on very little movement fights i will be first with 15 - 20k lead). On aoe trash if i do the flow from pack to pack right, meaning i bank shards for the next wave, i am allways top when there are
4+ mobs.Anyway the point is at least in my experience things look balanced atm.

Shadowpriest with Surrender to madness is what you are describing in the end (ramp up with execute) and i dont know if that would be a good thing, since its so powerfull that the whole spec has to be adjusted around it, which makes every other talent choice weak. I have no personal experience with shadowpriest in legion though.

[Pronbear]

Hey all,

When I read all of these posts, I'm just ashamed of my warlocks fellows and hope most of whiners reroll huntards. Honestly, if u can't stop complaining, stop playing warlock, thanks.
I'm no "professionnal" warlock, just an "average +" player trying to maximize his utility but here are my 2 cents :

Damage wise : Destro is OK for dungeons. I speak for mm dungeons (because before MM, dungeons are a joke with a bit of ilvl). U can rape adds (full AoE) set up, but lack damages on ST for boss fights (that can be OK, if other damage dealers are strong ST), or u can go for a decent aoe plus honest ST + adds fights (with talents like Shadowburn, eradication, wreak havoc). Anyway, if u can't find PUG, get better ilvl (with 838 i got no problem to find MM dungeons) or go with your guild (if they don't want u because, u're lock, then change guild, they are trash). Didn't tried demo yet, but feedbacks tend to say its OK (nice aoe on trash, interesting ST).
Anyway, eventho MM+ will be a nice addition, the only thing I really care about is raid! And about raid, with the really good cleave and adds burst capability of destro, there will always be a room for locks (if not, then change guild, they are trash, once more)! Yeap, u won't top dps, but you'll be one of the first dps on adds, so it will be only thanks to you that your mates will be able to kill the boss and top the dps. Who cares about your epenis, aim of raid is stuffing and progessing imo. Ask any "pro player" from top guilds (I mean Serenity, From Scratch, etc.), they don't design raid comp about pure DPS but about classes that helps to deal with the fight mechanics. And destro is good with dealing with adds. QED. But if u guys don't give a shit about what I said, u can just learn to master demo and then u should be able to nearly top dps on ST (Yeah this is my flaw, I still like topping ST dps). And for those who still don't believe me, guilds will aways need a summoning stone for all those slackin b*tches when raid should start

Gameplay wise : that part is way more subjective. I totally disliked Destro in WoD. Even more with CR. Having only one important spell (CB) and others just being there to be generators sucked so hard imo. Only fun thing was FnB CB, like we used to do on Iskar. So I'm way more enthusiast with that iteration of the spec. Eventho Soo Destro is forever gone and I'll always mi, i find that Havoc is now a really interesting spell (before u had no thinkin : Havoc = CB or 3x SB), and even more with roaring blaze and eradication. For those who say we don't have any decision to take rotation-wise in a fight, I feel we don't play the same spec. Only thing I dislike a bit, it's mobility, but anyway, all ranged got fucked and once more I just have to not think about the MoP days.
Affliction now, didn't tried much, but i got sick of it in HFC (where I mained it, since my guild was missing ST damage). I don't wanna play it anymore because refresh, spam 5sec filler, refresh, UA when shards seems still boring as fuck. I'm just glad for those who like that spec that they tuned up the AoE, which was the WoD aff nightmare.
Demonology : I was absolutely crushed after they destroyed the older version, but I'm really happy with what they made! Tricky spec to use, tons of demons that follow u (and no more an army of imp but an army with diversity). Implosion is the best spell ever for all Diablo 3 Witch Doctors! Spamming DE ain't a problem for me, i prefer this than spamming filler... Yep mobility hurts the gameplay, but this is the moment where u can Lifetap without losing dps.
Survivability : after complaining about "Where the f*** did my HP pool went?", I'm just amazed by demon skin and our overall survivabilty. It seems like I will be able to slack even more than before, without even being close to die!

TL;DR :
Damage wise : Dungeons ain't relevant about class balance, total damage done isn't the unique thing damage dealers should excel at. Locks will be useful.
Gameplay wise : I prefer Legion's destro than WoD's one, demono is a fun spec. Don't like affli, but that's personnal.
Survivability : Dead dps deals less than alive dps. Good thing, u should never die, even if u do some fails, thanks for our tankyness.
Bonus : whiners plz reroll, thanks.

Sorry if this is hard to read, a lot in my mind and english ain't my native language.

[Tehterokkar]

Because you can totally plan when shit spawns under you and you're forced to react and move out.

I haven't encountered any dungeon yet on my Warlock alt where there was random stuff spawning. Everything has a set interval which you can play around. If you are just bad and don't keep 1 Conflagrate charge or have a few shards banked for Shadowburn, then you are just playing bad.

[Jessicka]

I have no personal experience with shadowpriest in legion though.

You don't seem to have much experience of even this class as a whole, outside of playing with a select group of peers. Your original post attempted to make comparisons with other classes; comparisons which aren't accurate. It's fair to say your closed group experience probably isn't well representative either.

[Mehrunes]

None of our specs now have an execute, but we've been given even more ramp up to get to that middling flatline.

What do you mean? Doomguard does whole 20% more below 20% of enemy HP!

[Deleted]

If warlock is terrible I suggest you learn to play

[Requimortem]

Hey all,

When I read all of these posts, I'm just ashamed of my warlocks fellows and hope most of whiners reroll huntards. Honestly, if u can't stop complaining, stop playing warlock, thanks.

I stopped reading there. If you're going to be an idiot, YOU need to reroll into a "huntard". You seem like a perfect fit anyway.

Infracted -- Novx is a massive tool.

[nodq]

Even then, I feel like the hefty resource cost plus a cooldown is excessive.

I'm hoping more that they look at the Artifact system; honestly feels so bad switching to another Artifact with zero investment over one you put 13 traits or so into. It's an obvious and significant power loss, to a point it's just never going to feel worth it to diversify. No wonder dungeon queues are like 45mins to an hour.

I'm pretty sure that has more to do with the fact, that most people play DPS classes, now with one more DPS specc in legion even more so. That's why you have long ass waiting times for dungeons. For sure not, because your class is not good or anything like that. Play a heal class or tank, you will have instant invites all the time, because people do not play those classes that often as DPS, therfor instant invites.

[Deleted]

So basically, it's play destruction or nothing because whilst destruction enables you to be the group "does his best but struggles to keep up with the rest of the class" it's way better than affliction or even god help you demonology, which are garbage

Meanwhile there are classes and specs around that literally mash three buttons and neve rhave to change talents and they will beat the pants off any warlock

Warlock could also very much do with a heroism type utility too.

It's like the devs said to themselves well yes warlocks are hideously immobile because they have survivability, but that survivability don't mean shit in Mythics, because the mechanics are designed to kill anyone who doesn't move (as in Helya breathing, for example, or the walls of skeletons on Cordana)

- - - Updated - - -

I haven't encountered any dungeon yet on my Warlock alt where there was random stuff spawning. Everything has a set interval which you can play around. If you are just bad and don't keep 1 Conflagrate charge or have a few shards banked for Shadowburn, then you are just playing bad.

This is meaningless because other classes simply do not have to do this and the vast majority of the playerbase is casual and does not minmax like that, and nor should they have to

It is simply bad design to have one class that has a bunch of hurdles to jump over that hardly anyone else does. The inevitable result is that you get people who chose warlock and didn;t know and end up playing something they don;t like, or the word gets around and people just don't play one at all.

I guess if playing a competetive game and starting out with extra handicaps your competitors do not have floats your boat, you're happy.

[Deleted]

You don't seem to have much experience of even this class as a whole, outside of playing with a select group of peers. Your original post attempted to make comparisons with other classes; comparisons which aren't accurate. It's fair to say your closed group experience probably isn't well representative either.

What differend experience in mythics (from live content) do you expect when its up for like one week? Everyone posting is actually reflecting their personal experience which in the timeframe of one week is limited. And ofc i dont do only mythics and only with a selective group of peers but thats the most valid comparison i could make because i know these ppl and i know their gear etc. Want me to comment on what? heroics? pugs? ok, 99% of the time i do double dmg from every random firemage i have met. so fucking what? does it mean fire mages are shit?

You write about closed groups like its something limiting. How do closed groups affect numbers? If you do 250k+ dps single and 600+ steady aoe for example how does it matter if you do them with the same group or with randoms or whatever? On the other hand closed group tend to work together compared to pugs, which is how its supposed to be.

You can believe what you want and like what you want but dont make bs assumptions that i play this game only with 4 people. If you dont like warlocks play your firemage and be happy. If you ditched warlock cause you cant get good numbers in dungeons, its you, dont missinform people that its the class.

[Shadowswann]

What differend experience in mythics (from live content) do you expect when its up for like one week? Everyone posting is actually reflecting their personal experience which in the timeframe of one week is limited. And ofc i dont do only mythics and only with a selective group of peers but thats the most valid comparison i could make because i know these ppl and i know their gear etc. Want me to comment on what? heroics? pugs? ok, 99% of the time i do double dmg from every random firemage i have met. so fucking what? does it mean fire mages are shit?

You write about closed groups like its something limiting. How do closed groups affect numbers? If you do 250k+ dps single and 600+ steady aoe for example how does it matter if you do them with the same group or with randoms or whatever? On the other hand closed group tend to work together compared to pugs, which is how its supposed to be.

You can believe what you want and like what you want but dont make bs assumptions that i play this game only with 4 people. If you dont like warlocks play your firemage and be happy. If you ditched warlock cause you cant get good numbers in dungeons, its you, dont missinform people that its the class.

Master troll ?

[setsuna f seiei]

Didn't the lastest sim show warlocks as top of all ranged and 4th overall?

[xpose]

Didn't the lastest sim show warlocks as top of all ranged and 4th overall?

Those sims are based on standing still with no movement, it shows the possible damage output of a spec, but is not realistic in the slightest of how fights actually go.


Last night was the final straw for me, decided to hang up the warlock for now and roll a boomkim. The class is just not fun (for me) to play and I was on the verge of just quitting the game if I had to continue to play it.

[Jessicka]

What differend experience in mythics (from live content) do you expect when its up for like one week? Everyone posting is actually reflecting their personal experience which in the timeframe of one week is limited. And ofc i dont do only mythics and only with a selective group of peers but thats the most valid comparison i could make because i know these ppl and i know their gear etc. Want me to comment on what? heroics? pugs? ok, 99% of the time i do double dmg from every random firemage i have met. so fucking what? does it mean fire mages are shit?

No it doesn't, but it means your own experience isn't representative. Now, go take a look at the Legion Dev Q&A thead; it is absolutely dominated by Warlock complaints. And no one from other classes is contesting it; only Shadow Priests are saying 'hey, we're also bad', and again, that's accepted. I have literally never seen a single class's complaints be such a dominant, overarching centre of complaints. Not even in Cataclysm where we were launched mechanically and numerically broken as fuck, even by the developers' own admission.

You write about closed groups like its something limiting. How do closed groups affect numbers? If you do 250k+ dps single and 600+ steady aoe for example how does it matter if you do them with the same group or with randoms or whatever? On the other hand closed group tend to work together compared to pugs, which is how its supposed to be.

You can believe what you want and like what you want but dont make bs assumptions that i play this game only with 4 people. If you dont like warlocks play your firemage and be happy. If you ditched warlock cause you cant get good numbers in dungeons, its you, dont missinform people that its the class.

Find where I said I'm ditching the class over numbers.

I had my say over Demo in Alpha/Beta/Pre-patch when I accepted the combo-point system wasn't for me; all the other issues about mobility, Demonic Empowerment, Switching, ramp up, braindead AI, that's for others who are playing the spec, fixing those won't fix my underlying issues with the core mechanics of the spec. I hate combo points, and have since Diablo 2's Assassin. Either way, I've seen those complaints, I can acknowledge them, that they exist in a vacuum away from numbers. I played that spec for long enough, and put up with ridiculous "nuances" like snapshotting Doomguards/Meta/Moonwell Chalice, to realise that a bad mechanic, however 'balanced', is still a bad mechanic.

I've said before, that if such mechanics aren't well received, understood, are difficult to pull off, just 'feel bad', or straight up take too long to happen, then people are going to underperform and that is where the complaints about numbers come from. It doesn't change though that, if you actually read through the threads, you can find a mulititude of posters who have actually set out, neatly, in easy to digest bullet points, particular mechanical issues that they have with all three specs.

But no, you have to bring it back to numbers and calling people bad?