Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Ujio]

Simple and maybe dumb question (oh, there are no dumb questions!) from a guy who not even touched legion or the beta:

How good is outlaw performing compared to the other melee classes and does it make fun?

Dont know about anyone else but really feeling the lack of burst damage compared to other classes. In mythics where bosses are dying in around 1 minute some people are up at 500k dps and above and im sitting at around 200-300k as outlaw.

[Schmilblick]

He is a little idea to make RTB better, what do you think ?
http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...3392527?page=1

[kumarshah]

Hey guys,

Sims for my character are showing vastly different to what guides and what not are saying.
This is what I'm getting;
http://prntscr.com/cfhppi

Char is http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...akasoqt/simple

Is this accurate? It feels very... "off" to say the least.

Where do you do the simming?

[Deleted]

Use plotting instead of scaling, you'll have better infos.
Also, do not trust any guide that gives you some random value at some random points.

I'm not trusting any random values, just priorities and mine seem to vary a fair amount from the priorities listed.

Where do you do the simming?

Simcraft, specifically 7.0.3-02

[Deleted]

My problem with Outlaw currently is that a lot of the abilities play against each other.

Curse of the Dreadblades makes Broadside almost useless for the duration.
Adrenaline Rush will, without a doubt, energy cap you permanently during it's duration with Buried Treasure up but we need haste to make the rotation smoother thus energy capping you even harder. Which also makes Pistol Shot procs useless.
Slice and Dice being completely useless.
DfB being worse than MfD in almost every situation.
Deeper Stratagem being better in almost every situation.
Why is Alacrity on the same talent row as Barrage/KS?

With that being said. I absolutely adore the spec.

[Tzalix]

My problem with Outlaw currently is that a lot of the abilities play against each other.

Curse of the Dreadblades makes Broadside almost useless for the duration.
Adrenaline Rush will, without a doubt, energy cap you permanently during it's duration with Buried Treasure up but we need haste to make the rotation smoother thus energy capping you even harder. Which also makes Pistol Shot procs useless.
Slice and Dice being completely useless.
DfB being worse than MfD in almost every situation.
Deeper Stratagem being better in almost every situation.
Why is Alacrity on the same talent row as Barrage/KS?

With that being said. I absolutely adore the spec.

This is pretty much where I'm at too. I love playing Outlaw, but there are several problems, especially in the talents. I would definitely prefer playing with Slice and Dice, for one, being a long time lover of Combat, but right now it's just too far behind Roll the Bones.

[Master Guns]

That, plus the fact that you can do like 100k dPS on a boss with rolling 1 every time, is why I've chosen to pursue Assass exclusively.

[elfporn]

That, plus the fact that you can do like 100k dPS on a boss with rolling 1 every time, is why I've chosen to pursue Assass exclusively.

You're dead wrong, and you've been wrong on every post you've made complaining about outlaw, here and in other threads.

Even without rerolling outlaw is ahead of assassination on raidboss encounters. in other situations, particularly undergeared situations, maybe, you might get beat by an ass rogue, but...no, it just shouldnt happen, not to say that it can't, some players are better than others.

We tell you the facts yet you continue to spout unsupported information.

[Sephiroso]

That, plus the fact that you can do like 100k dPS on a boss with rolling 1 every time, is why I've chosen to pursue Assass exclusively.

Even with god awful string of 1 rolls, you should still do 200k~ dps

[Deleted]

So just to be clear. Greenskinns waterlogged Wristfuffs is only a stat increase? Got em today and happy for the sats but the effect is totaly usless in mytics and later raids right? Feels strange you finaly got "lucky" and the item turns only be a stat increase and ilvl.

[ymirsson]

Even with god awful string of 1 rolls, you should still do 200k~ dps

Unless you're a really bad player. *badum tss*

[Roiids]

Even with god awful string of 1 rolls, you should still do 200k~ dps

This^. Don't feed the trolls.

I am severely undergeared and pull 200K even fucking up my rotation sometimes.

[Useful]

which boss. what difficulty. length of fight. some logs to back up this statement plz?

[Deleted]

I'm rocking 846 ilvl and with a string of bad rolls I go down as low as 160k dps on ST. I doubt i'm fucking up the rotation that badly that i'm losing 40k dps, it could be the absolutely awful trinkets I have. Mark of Dargrul and Spiked Counterweight, both mythic.. Would definitely like some proof that you guys can sustain 200k with rolling 1 buffs multiple times in a row.

[Sephiroso]

I'm rocking 846 ilvl and with a string of bad rolls I go down as low as 160k dps on ST. I doubt i'm fucking up the rotation that badly that i'm losing 40k dps, it could be the absolutely awful trinkets I have. Mark of Dargrul and Spiked Counterweight, both mythic.. Would definitely like some proof that you guys can sustain 200k with rolling 1 buffs multiple times in a row.

You are. Fucking up your rotation that badly that you lose 40k dps i mean. Where you're losing 40k dps is improper rolling, improper usage of pistol shots(with proc), improper usage of SS, and failure at keeping up GS. If you're going to energy cap, do NOT use pistol shot even if you have an opportunity proc. Just use another SS so long as that isn't going to give you way to many CPs wasted.

Scenario 1. You have AR up, 85 energy, 4 combo points, and an opportunity proc. You have Grand Melee, Buried Treasures, and True Bearing.(aka not Broadsides). What should you use? SS. Not Pistol Shot. And if that SS brings you to 6cp, great, if it brings you to 5 cp, what do you do? GS if its really low or ran off, or if GS is fine, you still do not use Pistol Shot because you will cap energy by the time you finish your global so you just use a 5 cp RT.

When you have Broadsides up, you need to do simple math to figure out whats best. Just be weary using SS at 4+ because you'll lose mad cps with broadsides up, even more with broadsides+jolly rogers.

tl;dr - don't be afraid to use 5cp RTs. don't be afraid to not use opportunity procs if it will energy cap you. keep up GS...especially for your RTs. learn when to stop rerolling..this can't be said enough when its a dungeon boss you're fighting.

[Phanuel]

I'm rocking 846 ilvl and with a string of bad rolls I go down as low as 160k dps on ST. I doubt i'm fucking up the rotation that badly that i'm losing 40k dps, it could be the absolutely awful trinkets I have. Mark of Dargrul and Spiked Counterweight, both mythic.. Would definitely like some proof that you guys can sustain 200k with rolling 1 buffs multiple times in a row.

They're all talking out their behinds imo.

I've only ever energy capped during a Lust with either Buried or AR up. Otherwise, I'm starved while mashing saber. Tons of downtime in the spec and the rng joys of rolling 4 true bearings in a row.

[SSJones]

Ilvl 847 Outlaw here checking in with some conclusions I've come to over lots of dungeon runs:

All this complaining about RNG rolling 1 bad buff over and over and doing poor DPS in dungeons is missing a few critical pieces of analysis in what they are doing.

The 2+ buff rule is based on a single-target, 6 1/2 minute long fight. Shorter duration and non-single target fights where you don't keep constant on-target time with whatever buffs you have will have greater variance in the damage you do. Sometimes in dungeons (and this will be true in raids in some circumstances as well I am sure) you just need to eat whatever one buff you have and lay out the damage you can.

If you are tanking your damage rolling 1 buff 8 times in a row, you needed to stop rolling after roll 2 or 3. Just ride the fight out with one buff in dungeons. The fight will be over in 2-3 full buff durations, and you need to get some RT's off instead of just playing dice the whole time. Sometimes you just have to accept that the RNG baked into the spec means you're many times going to be closer to or just below 200k than 300+ single target on dungeons even in 840+ gear. Trying to push it is like the dude playing double or nothing on the roulette wheel trying to pay off his mortgage. It's going to work for someone, but man, it's probably just gonna result in you losing your house when you try it. You're wrecking your DPS trying to win some back. Outlaw, in my opinion, requires the most flexibility in rotation/play adjustment of the three specs to get the most out of it, even if at its core it might be the most simple rotation.

Second, there's great variance in the performance of sustain in these situations based on length of fight, your relics, trinkets, and what buffs you had during / how you got through your burst phase. Throwing out random 'I average about this much' numbers from dungeons aren't going to mean much compared to each other. We'll know more for sure when we can start comparing tons of logs from raids on longer duration fights.

[neozz1]

Ilvl 847 Outlaw here checking in with some conclusions I've come to over lots of dungeon runs:

All this complaining about RNG rolling 1 bad buff over and over and doing poor DPS in dungeons is missing a few critical pieces of analysis in what they are doing.

The 2+ buff rule is based on a single-target, 6 1/2 minute long fight. Shorter duration and non-single target fights where you don't keep constant on-target time with whatever buffs you have will have greater variance in the damage you do. Sometimes in dungeons (and this will be true in raids in some circumstances as well I am sure) you just need to eat whatever one buff you have and lay out the damage you can.

If you are tanking your damage rolling 1 buff 8 times in a row, you needed to stop rolling after roll 2 or 3. Just ride the fight out with one buff in dungeons. The fight will be over in 2-3 full buff durations, and you need to get some RT's off instead of just playing dice the whole time. Sometimes you just have to accept that the RNG baked into the spec means you're many times going to be closer to or just below 200k than 300+ single target on dungeons even in 840+ gear. Trying to push it is like the dude playing double or nothing on the roulette wheel trying to pay off his mortgage. It's going to work for someone, but man, it's probably just gonna result in you losing your house when you try it. You're wrecking your DPS trying to win some back. Outlaw, in my opinion, requires the most flexibility in rotation/play adjustment of the three specs to get the most out of it, even if at its core it might be the most simple rotation.

Second, there's great variance in the performance of sustain in these situations based on length of fight, your relics, trinkets, and what buffs you had during / how you got through your burst phase. Throwing out random 'I average about this much' numbers from dungeons aren't going to mean much compared to each other. We'll know more for sure when we can start comparing tons of logs from raids on longer duration fights.

This should be stickied and turned to bold. People should realistically be leveling a second artifact anyway so do dungeons in whatever you want and worry about long boss fights later.

[Deleted]

This^. Don't feed the trolls.

I am severely undergeared and pull 200K even fucking up my rotation sometimes.

Lets see a video.

- - - Updated - - -

Even with god awful string of 1 rolls, you should still do 200k~ dps

Could you post a video of rolling 1 buff, at least 6 times (doesn't have to be in a row, just in total) on a 2 minute duration fight with a visible damage meter?

[glowpipe]

This^. Don't feed the trolls.

I am severely undergeared and pull 200K even fucking up my rotation sometimes.

Not in mythics or premades without the random buff you're not.