Mythic+ loot nerfed from 5 pieces to 2

[ChickenChaser]

You left out that this only matters in the first raid tier without set bonuses. If your going to use the elite level statistics I for sure can use a lower tier example. Feel free to split the difference and come up with a more realistic scenario that doesn't use full 5man mythic beta players as the example to counter the loot distribution of gearing in mythic +. I totally agree that 5 items were definitely to many per keystone per level. I'm erring on the side of the statistical likeliness of me getting no items in 10 full clears of my keystone next week is a real possibility with the current system.

I don't about know everyone else, but even playing something like 28 hours a week, with 12 of those being taken up for raiding, 6 probably for WQs, a few here and there for profession and daily heroics...where do I have the time to run 125 Mythic+ dungeons and how is that relevant to anyone who isn't literally going to play Wow for 300 hours in the next three weeks attempting to be world first?

it wasn't 125 mythic+ dungeons it was 25.... giving 125 pieces of loot which takes about 10-12 hours max using the beta drop rates would pretty much statistically completely gear you out in every slot....

Also i didn't include tier because im relatively sure this god aweful mythic+ system will not end up scaling into later tiers because the way its set up now it literally cannot scale without either becoming A a loot pinata where everyone can do +10 or higher easily with gear. or B full unaccesable to anything but the most hardcore raiders that could already do +15 or higher by adding things like +20 or higher.

[Polarthief]

If it is to be an alternative path to mythic raiding I guess guaranteed loot for completing the dungeon doesn't make sense. Not even mythic raiders get that, and loot drops for 1 in 5 of them. 2 in 5 is already better luck, plus each person gets loot in the mail for the next week. Sounds pretty nice to me, even with the nerf.

Except if the gear is only from dungeons, then rip getting tier and good trinkets.

Even with 5 pieces of loot, the system is still raid or die because you need the (vastly superior) raid trinkets to go deep into Mythic+ anyways.

[Coldvibes]

It wasn't completely raid or die, before Horn of Valor was nerfed, Angerboda's procrate was nerfed, and a couple other trinkets I can think of were nerfed, it was fine.

then they went back and nerfed those trinkets and now it is raid or die.

[ChickenChaser]

Except if the gear is only from dungeons, then rip getting tier and good trinkets.

Even with 5 pieces of loot, the system is still raid or die because you need the (vastly superior) raid trinkets to go deep into Mythic+ anyways.

Are you joking? the BIS list for almost every class has 5 of the top 6 trinkets being Mythic+ Warforged/Titanforged trinkets..... Like if you get a Titanforged Spiked Tongue your GG...

[Okacz]

What worries me more than quantity of loot (that can be easily adjusted, as it was in WoD) is its quality. I mean, on the opening week it's 850, on par with normal mode of the raid coming out, and below HC mode. Next week it will be able to climb to 865 - on par with HC raid gear, but below Mythic.

If that's the way it is, then Blizzard seems to have chickened out. They claimed that Mythic+ will be an alternative to raiding (gearwise), but it's clearly always a level below it. What's more, I don't see how it starting with 850 max ilvl loot makes any sense, since most players going for it in the first week are over 840 already, and will find very little upgrades. Especially since 850 is the ilvl of crafted gear that can be perfectly itemized.

Guess we shall see.

[Dawnrage]

Except if the gear is only from dungeons, then rip getting tier and good trinkets.

Even with 5 pieces of loot, the system is still raid or die because you need the (vastly superior) raid trinkets to go deep into Mythic+ anyways.

No? Mythic+10 is the most efficient to run and also gives you the highest reward in your weekly chest, so there's no reason to go higher unless you overgear (highly doubtful from beta experience) or just want the challenge like the realm first achievement to clear +15 first.

Mythic+8 - +10 was being done by a good amount of people on beta without any raid gear (considering most of the raid was only from scheduled testing and not something you could gear up from). Why make such an ignorant statement?

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What worries me more than quantity of loot (that can be easily adjusted, as it was in WoD) is its quality. I mean, on the opening week it's 850, on par with normal mode of the raid coming out, and below HC mode. Next week it will be able to climb to 865 - on par with HC raid gear, but below Mythic.

If that's the way it is, then Blizzard seems to have chickened out. They claimed that Mythic+ will be an alternative to raiding (gearwise), but it's clearly always a level below it. What's more, I don't see how it starting with 850 max ilvl loot makes any sense, since most players going for it in the first week are over 840 already, and will find very little upgrades. Especially since 850 is the ilvl of crafted gear that can be perfectly itemized.

Guess we shall see.

You seriously expect mythic+ dungeons to replace mythic raiding? Be realistic. Mythic+ is not hard at all, mythic raiding is. There wasn't anyone that killed any mythic bosses on beta during the tests with mythic+ gear that they could farm a shitload of from +8 to +10 (and several groups were doing this every week). Granted our ilvls were all normalized to something Blizzard set, but that should still tell you something.

Mythic+ is definitely a good alternative to raiding still, because you can get lucky and roll good pieces comparable or better to mythic raiding - hell, these last 3 weeks should tell you how just doing world quests and 5 mans can net you gear up to 30 ilvls better than whatever they are, and in many cases better than mythic dungeon drops, so why would you think otherwise when it comes to mythic+ compared to mythic raiding?

But if you think mythic+ deserves to drop mythic level gear on par with actual mythic raiding content consistently...you are high.

[Sanat]

Mythic+8 - +10 was being done by a good amount of people on beta without any raid gear (considering most of the raid was only from scheduled testing and not something you could gear up from). Why make such an ignorant statement?

The vast majority of serious testers were Cutting edge Archi players. Great sample set for testing content difficulty for generalized statements on the average players success with a new system.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Stop with the special snowflake raiding crap. Gear and ilvl matters far too much for mythic raiders to have an advantage over anyone.
Mythic raider A plays for 100 hours a month
Mythic + dungeon player B plays for 100 hours a month
World quest player C plays for 100 hours a month
Ranked PVPer D plays for 100 hours a month
Players A,B,C and D should all be rewarded with the same gear within 5-10% of each other. End of story.

[Okacz]

You seriously expect mythic+ dungeons to replace mythic raiding? Be realistic. Mythic+ is not hard at all, mythic raiding is. There wasn't anyone that killed any mythic bosses on beta during the tests with mythic+ gear that they could farm a shitload of from +8 to +10 (and several groups were doing this every week).

Mythic+ is definitely a good alternative to raiding still, because you can get lucky and roll good pieces comparable or better to mythic raiding - hell, these last 3 weeks should tell you how just doing world quests and 5 mans can net you gear up to 30 ilvls better than whatever they are, and in many cases better than mythic dungeon drops, so why would you think otherwise when it comes to mythic+ compared to mythic raiding?

But if you think mythic+ deserves to drop mythic level gear on par with actual mythic raiding content consistently...you are high.

It's a system with multiple layers of difficulty. It can be WAY harder than Mythic raids at certain level. Why not give gear on par with it?

For what it seems, even for a semi-casual raider, progressing on a steady pace through HC raid, this system might be worthless. It drops loot on the same level as HC Emerald Nightmare (on the most grueling level, mind you), requires you to farm a dungeon countless time to get there, and still only reward something on par with, I don't know, Ursoc HC that is killable in minutes. And later, with tier sets in Nighthold, it might be even worse for Mythic+.

Whatever, I just might overthink this, still love the idea. Just a small worry on my side.

[Dawnrage]

The vast majority of serious testers were Cutting edge Archi players. Great sample set for testing content difficulty for generalized statements on the average players success with a new system.

So what is the problem if the average player clears mythic+ dungeons at the rate a mythic player clears mythic raiding content? Is that not essentially what you should want, a true path of progression that rivals the difficulty and gear of raiding?

You guys are complaining because you don't want that, you want easy gear, and not just that, you want gear that the highest tier of players can get while doing content that isn't as hard as what they are doing, in both difficulty and logistics. That's unreasonable. It's not like you wouldn't be able to gear up at all doing mythic+, it's just that the rate of you becoming BiS compared to a mythic raider is going to be different, and why is that not fair? In your terms, would you want someone who simply does heroic 5 mans and world quests to gear up at the same rate as someone who does mythic+ content?

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It's a system with multiple layers of difficulty. It can be WAY harder than Mythic raids at certain level. Why not give gear on par with it?

For what it seems, even for a semi-casual raider, progressing on a steady pace through HC raid, this system might be worthless. It drops loot on the same level as HC Emerald Nightmare (on the most grueling level, mind you), requires you to farm a dungeon countless time to get there, and still only reward something on par with, I don't know, Ursoc HC that is killable in minutes. And later, with tier sets in Nighthold, it might be even worse for Mythic+.

Whatever, I just might overthink this, still love the idea. Just a small worry on my side.

These are just my own opinion, but I personally think it's because it's a 5 man. Yeah, 5 man players don't want to hear that, but it makes sense if you think about it - There would be too many ways to cheese it with comps and too hard to balance for different groups (we are talking thousands of combinations here). If a certain comp is able to clear let's say mythic+25 and get the best loot that no one else can, how is that fair? It's a lot different than balancing for a group of 20 people.

This would only just favor the mythic raiders as well, because they will most likely be the ones who benefit from this far more than the average player, since they would be the one finding glitches and bugs they can exploit, as well as abusing comps. It wouldn't be an alternative anymore, it would simply be a requirement for a mythic raider (moreso than it is now), and the main form of gearing in WoW, just due to it's nature of being a 5 man, both logistically and difficulty wise.

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Stop with the special snowflake raiding crap. Gear and ilvl matters far too much for mythic raiders to have an advantage over anyone.
Mythic raider A plays for 100 hours a month
Mythic + dungeon player B plays for 100 hours a month
World quest player C plays for 100 hours a month
Ranked PVPer D plays for 100 hours a month
Players A,B,C and D should all be rewarded with the same gear within 5-10% of each other. End of story.

....Why make any content then? Why not just put a loot box and have everyone collect gear from it every week that gives you loot? You are downplaying difficulty and ease of accessability to something so stupid.

And also, given those timeframes, I would actually say that they would actually all be within 5-10% of each other, with the probability of world quest player X or mythic+ dungeon player Y having a legendary or two over mythic raider K (I don't know shit about pvp so maybe those guys won't).

It's not like mythic raiders can magically raid more in a given month and get more gear somehow. The advantage mythic raiders have is that they have an extra source of gearing from doing heroics/mythic raids, but if you are only giving them 100 hours a month like the rest of the players, they will have to pick what they want to do - they won't be able to gear up from every possible source, which means mythic+ players will get to do more mythic+ dungeons, and world quests players will do more world quests, with both those groups also possibly running heroics. In other words, you didn't really think this through.

[Vexilius]

Thanks raiders for complaining until Blizzard gives into your demands.

Raid or die with dipping sauce of 5 mans and world content I guess.

No problem.

[Deleted]

Stop with the special snowflake raiding crap. Gear and ilvl matters far too much for mythic raiders to have an advantage over anyone.
Mythic raider A plays for 100 hours a month
Mythic + dungeon player B plays for 100 hours a month
World quest player C plays for 100 hours a month
Ranked PVPer D plays for 100 hours a month
Players A,B,C and D should all be rewarded with the same gear within 5-10% of each other. End of story.

Cuz fuck difficulty right? A baby monkey can do worldquests.... Not so many ppl in this game that can raid mythic... You sound like you just want free topnotch loot for a babymonkeys work, you sir are the definition of a casual forum-QQing pleb.
Infracted;

[Elbob]

Stop with the special snowflake raiding crap. Gear and ilvl matters far too much for mythic raiders to have an advantage over anyone.
Mythic raider A plays for 100 hours a month
Mythic + dungeon player B plays for 100 hours a month
World quest player C plays for 100 hours a month
Ranked PVPer D plays for 100 hours a month
Players A,B,C and D should all be rewarded with the same gear within 5-10% of each other. End of story.

No, gear should be gated behind difficulty of content with a factor of time included. World quests are SIGNIFICANTLY easier then Mythic+ or Mythic raids and should take more time to obtain equivalent gear levels. Under your example you forget
player E) who farms herbs for 100 hours a month, should he also get as much ilvl in gear for only herbing?
Player F) who likes to explore and find cool screen shots and do rare achievements, should he get as much ilvl?
and of course Player G) Who spends 100 hours socializing in chat, should he get as much ilvl?

It's all about finding the line and blizzard has placed the best gear behind doing certain content types that they deem to be the most difficult (Mythic+ and Mythic Raiding) This nerf to Mythic+ gear drops was not something raiders wanted, I'm a raider and I'M sad to see this nerf. I don't even play that much, I only raid 3 nights a week with 0 split runs. The raw amount of gear from running Mythic+ was FAR too plentiful. You make it seem like its 100% unfair to make people raid for the best chances at gear but are 100% ok with forcing people to run as many Mythic+ dungeons as possible per week for the best gear? Bias much?

If each 5man drops 2 pieces of loot, 40% of your grp gets gear. A Mythic boss dropping 6 pieces of gear in a raid grants not even 30% of the raid loot. EN is 7 bosses and has 2 difficulties this next reset that is only 14x6(84) pieces of loot. Compared to 10 Mythic+'s x 2 pieces of loot x 7 clears (average difficulty many heroic quality players should be able to reach) that's 140 pieces of loot.

Even if you argue the discrepancies like mythic starting 840 or 845 and not capping at 865 until +10 or w/e they decided it was the sheer amount of chances at titanforged bonuses easily keeps mythic+ players on par with players who exclusively raid.

"But Elbob raiders can do both Mythic+ and raid so they have unfair advantages" ANYONE can raid just like ANYONE can mythic+, you can pug normal and early heroic bosses EASILY just like I can pug the Mythic+ 5 mans I don't have keys for. The only thing stopping you from raiding is yourself, it is not the crazy cblock most casuals on these forums like to claim it is. I run an extremely successful alt raid that pugs spots EVERY tier, and guess what... I don't require achievements or crazy ilevels to join.

Grats ahead of time to all the gear EVERYONE can get next week as long as they put in the effort

[Tharkkun]

Stop with the special snowflake raiding crap. Gear and ilvl matters far too much for mythic raiders to have an advantage over anyone.
Mythic raider A plays for 100 hours a month
Mythic + dungeon player B plays for 100 hours a month
World quest player C plays for 100 hours a month
Ranked PVPer D plays for 100 hours a month
Players A,B,C and D should all be rewarded with the same gear within 5-10% of each other. End of story.

You'll have gear comparable to Normal and Heroic raiding. If you want Mythic raiding ilevel you need to step up to the plate and challenge yourself with Mythic raiding. Otherwise why do you need that extra 10-20 ilevels? What content are you tackling that requires it?

Blizzard has added a very generous progression path which if you want gives you a huge stepping stone into raiding or increased player power.

[Underverse]

Good change. And I say this as a casualbad.

[Jotaux]

I was hoping it would be personal loot.

[Holofernes]

The vast majority of serious testers were Cutting edge Archi players. Great sample set for testing content difficulty for generalized statements on the average players success with a new system.

nobody else would ever find a reason to do difficult dungeons?


And no gear must not be rewarded for hours spent in game. it shall be rewarded for doing diffcult content, holy moly those japanese anime freaks are so weird..

Typical anime charname idiot in bg, no kills, 2 times dead per minute, when reztimer= 30s, is mentally handicapped irl, does nothing than queue bgs all day long.

to your awsome idea of "BALANCE" this guy should have the best available gear ingame, whereas a 9 hours a week highly skilled mythic raider or 2,5k arena guy would never be able to get this gear, because they dont have the time.
What u want is a Browsergames ,so pls go there (any of them) and click more for 12 hours a day, to become the uber guy after spending 3 years clicking at your browsergame.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Can this myth of "raiding is hard" go away please?
Nothing in this game is hard, it's a MMO with DBM that literally plays the game for you and gives you play by play step by step tutorials of how to do bosses mid fight. Raids are tested months in advanced by top10 raiders and videos/guides/DBM are posted minute1 of the raids being released.

The only difficult part of this game is finding 19 other people who aren't drooling idiots and can do more than press wasd and 1 at the same time.

People who think "this game is hard so I should get rewarded doing hard content only" need a reality check.

If you were rewarded for only doing the "Hardest content" in the game, this game would have less than 100k subs.

Gear is too powerful to lock the best behind mythic bosses only. We tried that in WOD, it was a massive failure. The reward for killing the bosses on mythic should be..get this, KILLING THE BOSS ON MYTHIC. There should only be 5-10% power gap between mythic raiders and a non-raider who plays as much, but simply doesn't have the desire to do mythic raiding. Everyone should have enough gear to do all content in the game at any time as long as they put in enough time playing the game. Gear matters too much for it be some special mythic raider only thing.

I mean, shouldn't mythic raiders WANT everyone to be geared for a bigger player pool of potential recruits? Or do you want people who don't mythic raid to be 50% weaker than you(like wod) and you have to drag them through mythic raids for a month to gear them up(and probably bail immediately after they get gear). Do you really want a smaller pool of players to recruit from when you need more players for your raid?

I don't think you do. Please think about this more clearly.

[Twilight Cultist]

Can this myth of "raiding is hard" go away please?
Nothing in this game is hard, it's a MMO with DBM that literally plays the game for you and gives you play by play step by step tutorials of how to do bosses mid fight. Raids are tested months in advanced by top10 raiders and videos/guides/DBM are posted minute1 of the raids being released.

The only difficult part of this game is finding 19 other people who aren't drooling idiots and can do more than press wasd and 1 at the same time.

People who think "this game is hard so I should get rewarded doing hard content only" need a reality check.

If you were rewarded for only doing the "Hardest content" in the game, this game would have less than 100k subs.

Oh, stop it. Even if we were to say that raiding isn't hard (which I completely disagree with), relative to the rest of the content in the game, it is by far the most challenging part of WoW in terms of PVE.

[kamuimac]

Thanks raiders for complaining until Blizzard gives into your demands.

Raid or die with dipping sauce of 5 mans and world content I guess.

sadly this - for the first time in forever 5 mens were supposed to be decent alternative - now they are complete garbage combined with limited duraction of keystone and no way to target dungeons for mythic +

raiding once again fucked over rest of the game

mythic + were such a chance with those changes they are garbage f u blizzard. no wonder Metzen left he sees no future for wow.

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You seriously expect mythic+ dungeons to replace mythic raiding? Be realistic. Mythic+ is not hard at all, mythic raiding is. There wasn't anyone that killed any mythic bosses on beta during the tests with mythic+ gear that they could farm a shitload of from +8 to +10 (and several groups were doing this every week). Granted our ilvls were all normalized to something Blizzard set, but that should still tell you something.

and what woudl be so fucking bad about it - blizzard chickened out and once again mythic crybabies won - game will continiue to be utter shit besides raiding - very sad day.

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You must have not done beta.... It was SIGNIFICANTLY more rewarding than anything else... Even raid guilds were thinking of dropping split runs to just run more mythic+ because it was that huge.
.

how dare people have fun in game anywhere besides raid eh ?