watched the greymane vs sylvannas cinematic 1 thing confuses me

[Mehrunes]

Sure, They were killable mobs, mostly because there were a few quests where you had to go get something that one of them had. There were never any "go kill 10 refugees just cause" quests though. It was usually more of a "that important guy took some important thing when he fled, and we need the thing back. Go find him", kind of quests.

You only killed two that I recall. One who murdered the wife of some Undercity NPC (later gets ressed at the very start of post-Cata Forsaken starting questline) and another guy for Warlock quest to learn some of the demon summoning spells. Either Felhunter or Succubus, can't recall which came after Voidwalker.

Edit: should have read more of the thread before replying since Friendly already covered that <.<

The Horde has been doing exactly the same with the Undercity and is still doing it. Even though he despised them, Garrosh still used Undercity for the Horde's military manouvers, despite having no racial or any other similarities other than being enemies with the Alliance.

I kinda doubt the Forsaken made any pretense of being neutral. Can't recall them running to the Kirin Tor talking how defending them would be a neutral thing to do when 7th Legion invaded, for example.

Horde attacked the Night Elves, Jaina allows Alliance troops to funnel reinforcements via the Barrens in order to relieve pressure on their allies. Theramore was never neutral - it was, after all, an Alliance kingdom - but it was an advocate for peace. When one of your allies is attacked unprovoked however you are perfectly - and actually duty bound - to respond and lend them aid, over the aggressor.

Jaina didn't just funnel other Alliance troops through her city. Most of the Alliance soldiers fighting in the surrounding Horde zones are Jaina's soldiers. And they attacked Crossroads and Honor's Stand before Garrosh attacked Ashenvale. An attack that was not unprovoked either, since the Night Elves broke the trade agreement from Jaina's own peace summits, which fucked the Orcs over.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Some Idiot was and if you are not disagreeing with me on this topic, I can consider myself objectively right. Not saying that it wouldn't be possible that she wouldn't misuse the Power of the Val'kyr and instead only using it to grand her people immortality without further turning humans into Undead, but considering her past actions it wouldn't have been the wisest choice to bet on that possibility.

Storywise, it was like I said in a other Thread before the best that could happened to Sylvanas storywise. Now she has yet again a worthy Archenemy again, someone who is her equal, a worthy opponent. And she and the forsaken have a reason to hate Greymane and the Gilneans now. Greymane stole their future, he took something from them that can never be replaced again, the only thing they could hoped for since I don't believe that they are believing in the possibility to cure undeath.

I want to be honest, I also would love to see Greymane fighting Sylvanas in melee in his human form once. I think his fighting style as human could be a really good counter to Sylvanas in melee. He's using a Rapier, a elegant and fast weapon that requires, compared to other weapons, minimalistic movements while having a great range. Sylvanas on the other Hand uses sabers, a type of weapon that may be a great choice for cuts and strikes, but is the least suitable sword for thrusting. That would mean while Sylvanas is by far faster than Human Genn, he could counter this with the more subtile moves fencing overs, which could allow him to keep up with her.

im going to say the whole problem with fighting her with a rapier is that she is undead, rapiers dont work well on someone who wont bleed to death. Ive fenced for almost 9 years now, and the last thing I would want to fight a Banshee with would be a thin blade. But thats just my opinion.

[Deleted]

im going to say the whole problem with fighting her with a rapier is that she is undead, rapiers dont work well on someone who wont bleed to death. Ive fenced for almost 9 years now, and the last thing I would want to fight a Banshee with would be a thin blade. But thats just my opinion.

You got a point, yeah. The best spots to aim at would be probably her eyes and her joints. In worst Case Genn has his Gun, which could be efficient.

I hope that Arator will be an Alliance Character once Legion is over. Arator vs Sylvanas could be also cool, considering that he's her Nephew and a Paladin.

[Surfd]

The Horde has been doing exactly the same with the Undercity and is still doing it. Even though he despised them, Garrosh still used Undercity for the Horde's military manouvers, despite having no racial or any other similarities other than being enemies with the Alliance.

So now, please take a deep breath and think about it; Jaina had the FI available to her all along, but she never though about taking it and bombing a "Horde capital" off the continent. This is the crucial point of it all; one character never even though about bombing another city populated by not even living beings, but undead, yet this other character that only recently came to Azeroth decided its best to wipe away an entire nation that saved Azeroth from the Burning Legion.

Both Genn and Jaina never harbored hatred for anyone, despite so many conflicting situations that they've been faced with. They were turned into characters that harbor hatred for those that wronged them to such an extent, that forgiving is no longer an option.

Had Jaina bombed a Horde city and had Greymane invaded other kingdoms for no reason and massacred their population, I'd gladly agree with you. What you should think about is how the two races that were wrongedby others could inflict the same amount of pain and suffering on someone else, learning absolutely nothing from their tragedies(the orcs and the undead).

Please tell me you didnt just compare Theramore and The Undercity as nations with a straight face. Please tell me you didnt just do that.

Theramore is THE major Alliance military stronghold on Kalimdor, home to the 7th legion, probably the greatest fighting force the Alliance has, was the seat of the Alliance Assembly, and was practically the "capital city" of the Alliance. Sure, they might have not been outright neutral, but up untill the events of the Cataclysm, they had existed in an unofficial state of truce with Orgrimmar and the horde, and most conflicts between the two were usually small skirmish type deals or things like waylaying ships. That all changed when Jaina put Theramore into completely military mode and pointed it at the horde when Cata kicked off.

Undercity, on the other hand, has been a nation under siege since practically the day of its founding, and the Forsaken have spent nearly every day of their existence fighting simply to hold on to what they have, and what most of them consider theirs by birthright. The two nations are completely incomparable.

Im sorry, but Jaina really doesnt have a leg to stand on in regards to being "wronged" by the Horde. She may have started out as the voice for peace, but all that had changed WELL before Garrosh finally decided to do something permanent about the problem. Theramore represents the single largest Alliance military presence on the continent. Before the cataclysm there was a nominal, but unofficial truce between Orgrimmar and Theramore. Jaina and the 7th Legion were the first people to break that truce. Theramore was not any kind of "wronging" or "betrayal". Theramore was an act of reprisal for attacks already committed, and more to the point, a pretty effective way to put a quick end to the Alliances major military stronghold on Kalimdor. Militarily speaking, it was an absolutely brilliant maneuver.

Also, your appeal to emotion there is rather weak. Jaina gets a free pass for fucking shit up because she helped stop the Burning Legion in the previous war? Where is the Free Pass for the horde? They were there too, remember. Also, what Jaina could have done with the Focusing Iris is completely irrelevant.

Jaina brought it on herself when she decided to go full military base mode and turned Theramore into the launching point for pretty much every alliance military operation against the horde on the continent. Was Garrosh's reaction / solution to this problem complete overkill? Absolutely. That doesn't change the fact that there WOULD have been a response either way.

As for Gen / Gilneas. Yes, I will agree with you that they were Wronged by the Forsaken assault on their nation. I have never disputed that. I dispute the idea that Gen has legitimate claim to directly blame Sylvanas and claim some right to Vendetta for the death of his son, or the death of Varian.

I still find it rather ironic that Genn and the Gilneans came crawling to the alliance for help, given that the entire reason they needed help in the first place was because they collectively bailed out of their previous Alliance because they decided they were above dealing with the fallout of the previous war, walled themselves away from the rest of the world in an effort to avoid dealing with shit (though they still made ample use of their ports, AND managed to send a Gilnean contingent across the sea with Jaina for that particular war), and then had their own solution to the scourge (releasing the worgen into silverpine) come back to bite them in the ass.

[Magnagarde]

Please tell me you didnt just compare Theramore and The Undercity as nations with a straight face. Please tell me you didnt just do that.

Theramore is THE major Alliance military stronghold on Kalimdor, home to the 7th legion, probably the greatest fighting force the Alliance has, was the seat of the Alliance Assembly, and was practically the "capital city" of the Alliance. Sure, they might have not been outright neutral, but up untill the events of the Cataclysm, they had existed in an unofficial state of truce with Orgrimmar and the horde, and most conflicts between the two were usually small skirmish type deals or things like waylaying ships. That all changed when Jaina put Theramore into completely military mode and pointed it at the horde when Cata kicked off.

Undercity, on the other hand, has been a nation under siege since practically the day of its founding, and the Forsaken have spent nearly every day of their existence fighting simply to hold on to what they have, and what most of them consider theirs by birthright. The two nations are completely incomparable.

Im sorry, but Jaina really doesnt have a leg to stand on in regards to being "wronged" by the Horde. She may have started out as the voice for peace, but all that had changed WELL before Garrosh finally decided to do something permanent about the problem. Theramore represents the single largest Alliance military presence on the continent. Before the cataclysm there was a nominal, but unofficial truce between Orgrimmar and Theramore. Jaina and the 7th Legion were the first people to break that truce. Theramore was not any kind of "wronging" or "betrayal". Theramore was an act of reprisal for attacks already committed, and more to the point, a pretty effective way to put a quick end to the Alliances major military stronghold on Kalimdor. Militarily speaking, it was an absolutely brilliant maneuver.

Also, your appeal to emotion there is rather weak. Jaina gets a free pass for fucking shit up because she helped stop the Burning Legion in the previous war? Where is the Free Pass for the horde? They were there too, remember. Also, what Jaina could have done with the Focusing Iris is completely irrelevant.

Jaina brought it on herself when she decided to go full military base mode and turned Theramore into the launching point for pretty much every alliance military operation against the horde on the continent. Was Garrosh's reaction / solution to this problem complete overkill? Absolutely. That doesn't change the fact that there WOULD have been a response either way.

As for Gen / Gilneas. Yes, I will agree with you that they were Wronged by the Forsaken assault on their nation. I have never disputed that. I dispute the idea that Gen has legitimate claim to directly blame Sylvanas and claim some right to Vendetta for the death of his son, or the death of Varian.

I still find it rather ironic that Genn and the Gilneans came crawling to the alliance for help, given that the entire reason they needed help in the first place was because they collectively bailed out of their previous Alliance because they decided they were above dealing with the fallout of the previous war, walled themselves away from the rest of the world in an effort to avoid dealing with shit (though they still made ample use of their ports, AND managed to send a Gilnean contingent across the sea with Jaina for that particular war), and then had their own solution to the scourge (releasing the worgen into silverpine) come back to bite them in the ass.

What your post entirely misses out on, which is the main reason why these two characters are as angry as they are, is the fact that innocents paid with their lives/suffered due to several Horde leaders, be it Garrosh or Sylvanas.

If destroying Theramore in the way it was destroyed was "militarily brilliant", then I assume you also believe that it would've been a military marvel had Jaina annihilated all of Orgrimmar, yes? If you feel this way and can confirm this, then I can understand that you have an opinion which equally spreads across the board.

The contingent that went to Kalimdor with Jaina went to find Medivh and whatever of it wasn't destroyed by Grom Hellscream ended up fighting the Burning Legion, which is why there is nothing about this fact which would somehow prove any of your points. Please do remember that Jaina's combined forces established a foothold on Kalimdor before Thrall and the orcs did.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

My favorite part of the whole thing is how Genn is willing to damn an entire race because his stupid son wanted to be a hero. I'm not defending Sylvanas' actions, I support her cause but not her methods, but Genn's an asshole and I hope we don't have to see too much more of him.

Not only because his son wanted to be a hero. Seriously? That's ridiculous even to think. His son wouldn't have needed to be a hero if Forsaken hadn't invaded Gilneas and Sylvanas hadn't been trying to kill him. In Gilneas. Not like she was shooting him in Undercity.

There's also the bit where Forsaken use plague gas on Gilnean civilians, but hey - why hold a grudge, right?

[Aquamonkey]

If destroying Theramore in the way it was destroyed was "militarily brilliant", then I assume you also believe that it would've been a military marvel had Jaina annihilated all of Orgrimmar, yes? If you feel this way and can confirm this, then I can understand that you have an opinion which equally spreads across the board.

Destroying Orgrimmar was a very sound military tactic. The problem is that Jaina wasn't doing it to cripple the Horde's military. She was doing it to commit genocide against the orcs. She specifically wanted to kill the children. Also, her attack was beyond reckless and would have destroyed the Alliance fleet as well. Not to mention the immorality of enslaving thousands of sentient beings to do it.

[Magnagarde]

Destroying Orgrimmar was a very sound military tactic. The problem is that Jaina wasn't doing it to cripple the Horde's military. She was doing it to commit genocide against the orcs. She specifically wanted to kill the children. Also, her attack was beyond reckless and would have destroyed the Alliance fleet as well. Not to mention the immorality of enslaving thousands of sentient beings to do it.

I asked him wether he thinks its a military marvel or not because he thinks that bombing Theramore was, which made me wonder wether he feels the same about the possible destruction of Orgrimmar. You telling me that she attempted to do something she decided not to do doesn't contribute to the discussion.

You could talk about it if she had done it, but that wasn't the case. The conclusion and what happened is that Jaina didn't do to Orgrimmar what the Horde did to Theramore, even though she had the opportunity and even though thousands upon thousands were killed not long before that. It is also a fact that it was the Horde that was the first one to kill an extremely large number of civilians yet again, while she decided not to give a proportionate answer in return. Pretty much the same things that transpired over the First and Second War happened once again and it is the Alliance that spares the enemy.

This is the key difference between the two factions throughout Warcraft history; a part or the entirety of the Horde starts trouble and the other races and factions have to endure time and time again.

[Verdugo]

even though she had the opportunity

She didnt have an oportunity, she was outclassed by Thrall that wasnt willing to kill her and then her dragon fuckboi told her she wont get any scaly dick if she does something stupid.

[Aucald]

She didnt have an oportunity, she was outclassed by Thrall that wasnt willing to kill her and then her dragon fuckboi told her she wont get any scaly dick if she does something stupid.

I don't think she was outclassed by Thrall, if I recall correctly she actually had him subdued at the end of their conflict. He did open the window for Kalecgos to appear and talk her out of it, though; and the both of them working together could likely have easily overmatched her if she didn't choose to back down.

[Magnagarde]

She didnt have an oportunity, she was outclassed by Thrall that wasnt willing to kill her and then her dragon fuckboi told her she wont get any scaly dick if she does something stupid.

No, that is not what happened. She could've obliterated Orgrimmar right there and then, but decided in the end not to do it.

[Verdugo]

No, that is not what happened. She could've obliterated Orgrimmar right there and then, but decided in the end not to do it.

Because she would be dead if she tried.

[Magnagarde]

Because she would be dead if she tried.

That is speculation. I am speaking of what she clearly could've done.

[Aquamonkey]

I asked him wether he thinks its a military marvel or not because he thinks that bombing Theramore was, which made me wonder wether he feels the same about the possible destruction of Orgrimmar. You telling me that she attempted to do something she decided not to do doesn't contribute to the discussion.

You could talk about it if she had done it, but that wasn't the case. The conclusion and what happened is that Jaina didn't do to Orgrimmar what the Horde did to Theramore, even though she had the opportunity and even though thousands upon thousands were killed not long before that. It is also a fact that it was the Horde that was the first one to kill an extremely large number of civilians yet again, while she decided not to give a proportionate answer in return. Pretty much the same things that transpired over the First and Second War happened once again and it is the Alliance that spares the enemy.

There were no civilians in Theramore...

"Decided"... you don't get off the hook when someone has to physically stop you from committing genocide while enslaving thousands of sapient beings.

"I was going to bomb that school, but Homeland Security intercepted me. We got into a shootout before I gave up. That's cool, right?"

I don't think she was outclassed by Thrall, if I recall correctly she actually had him subdued at the end of their conflict. He did open the window for Kalecgos to appear and talk her out of it, though; and the both of them working together could likely have easily overmatched her if she didn't choose to back down.

Thrall was able to match her for a short time, even with her Focusing Iris. However, he wasn't going for lethal, while she was.

[Magnagarde]

There were no civilians in Theramore...

"Decided"... you don't get off the hook when someone has to physically stop you from committing genocide while enslaving thousands of sapient beings.

She decided not to do it after she overcame Thrall. Therefor, there is no point in your reply.

No, he did not overcome her physically, making your reply even less credible.

And he was entirely at the mercy of a woman who stood a few yards
away—one he had once called “friend” but who now was striving to be
death incarnate

Unlike the Horde's countless genocidal stunts, Alliance ones can only be talked about through the prism of possibility, not actual deeds. Once again, this is the difference between them.

[Zerroth]

The Forsaken are not a race. They are a blight, a plague, and should not exist. They are a disease to the planet and do not belong. They should be eradicated. Genn is doing the right thing.

[Magnagarde]

The Forsaken are not a race. They are a blight, a plague, and should not exist. They are a disease to the planet and do not belong. They should be eradicated. Genn is doing the right thing.

*triggering intesifies*

You crossed a terrible threshold, Zerroth.

[Aquamonkey]

She decided not to do it after she overcame Thrall. Therefor, there is no point in your reply.

No, he did not overcome her physically, making your reply even less credible.

Unlike the Horde's countless genocidal stunts, Alliance ones can only be talked about through the prism of possibility, not actual deeds. Once again, this is the difference between them.

Thrall physically stopped Jaina from drowning Orgrimmar. She was unable to press her attack unless she killed Thrall.

You don't get off the hook for walking away from attempted mass murder after having a shootout with the police regardless if the police overpower you.

[Magnagarde]

Thrall physically stopped Jaina from drowning Orgrimmar. She was unable to press her attack unless she killed Thrall.

No, she was able to crush him and all of Orgrimmar. He was at her mercy. You didn't even read it lol

And he was entirely at the mercy of a woman who stood a few yards
away

[Deleted]

My favorite part of the whole thing is how Genn is willing to damn an entire race because his stupid son wanted to be a hero. I'm not defending Sylvanas' actions, I support her cause but not her methods, but Genn's an asshole and I hope we don't have to see too much more of him.

"Entire race", that's implying humans see forsaken as a race. I'd say that it's pretty common for humans to see forsaken as monsters, and little more than a creation of the scourge.