7.1 spoilers "An Elven Problem"

[TheeSicarius]

I am completely happy with Elves getting their hayday and allying themselves together to re-take Suramar. A few questions though. I have always loved Elven lore in Warcraft, for both Night Elves and Blood Elves. Though I feel like Night Elves are getting shafted a bit, and not because of Tyrande. The sentinels, while mostly snipers (essentially) also consist of saber-riding glaive-wielding warriors as well, don't they? Not only that the Night Elves have pretty powerful front-liners aka the ancients, or many of druids who follow Ursoc's teachings. Night Elves have been portrayed to be a force to be reckoned with many times before, but why do they seem like such a minor role in this? Blood Elves have the Blood Knights which is an entire group of soldiers well adapted to melee combat, this much is true, but I personally feel like Night Elves are being shown in a "weak" light. At the very least, where the hell is the most bad-ass melee focused Night Elves at in this whole conflict, and by that I mean the Wardens.

[Rhlor]

I am completely happy with Elves getting their hayday and allying themselves together to re-take Suramar. A few questions though. I have always loved Elven lore in Warcraft, for both Night Elves and Blood Elves. Though I feel like Night Elves are getting shafted a bit, and not because of Tyrande. The sentinels, while mostly snipers (essentially) also consist of saber-riding glaive-wielding warriors as well, don't they? Not only that the Night Elves have pretty powerful front-liners aka the ancients, or many of druids who follow Ursoc's teachings. Night Elves have been portrayed to be a force to be reckoned with many times before, but why do they seem like such a minor role in this? Blood Elves have the Blood Knights which is an entire group of soldiers well adapted to melee combat, this much is true, but I personally feel like Night Elves are being shown in a "weak" light. At the very least, where the hell is the most bad-ass melee focused Night Elves at in this whole conflict, and by that I mean the Wardens.

Wardens are almost destroyed

[Deleted]

Wardens are almost destroyed

Good riddance to bad rubbish

[Mehrunes]

When a source supports what I've been it's suddenly human error and nature, when it gives context also to what you're seeing and i point that out, it is now blizzard who made the error, but Mehrunes who's right.

You speak of things being easy to understand, yet can't comprehend the word "could". Your ENGLISH MASTERY is wonky as fuck. The point #3 is the main one and newer lore > older lore is an established pattern.

Will you say anything just to make me sound ludicrous, what did I do to you? Did it occur to you that I'm merely repeating what I've seen/heard?

Yes, the idea that you're seeing things did cross my mind.

That I'm saying what I'm saying because of those very sources, and what they have said and what they have presented?

Considering that this one single source that may even mean something else entirely like Zulkhan said is less than a month old and you started using it with two weeks of delay, you're not saying what these sources (this one and only source that is) say because you've been pushing this narrative for three or four months now.

Despite what you may think, I'm certainly am not taking this out of my head, I'm describing what I've been shown, what I've heard and what I've experienced, - so even when a source shows and says it plainly, it must be human error, because no one could possibly say what Ravenmoon is saying, - just doesn't occur to you that I'm actually only saying what they are saying. But it's some how mixed up when I'm saying it.

Could, must, what's the difference, lel.

you keep using that statement from Chronicles as if it negates what I've been pointing out to you. It doesn't.

Yes, them becoming a new race doesn't negate you trying to make them Night Elves. I guess they weren't Night Elves before then. Were they the last of the Dark Trolls that haven't been changed yet, then?

If we follow your logic, Chronicles says it made them a new race. Why are you not arguing that they aren't a new race of elves, because the book didn't mention it in that quotation... as I pointed out to you before (after you admitted you don't read what I say), that they are a new race of elves and not just any elves, a new race of night elves is shown. They don't have to state it's a new race of elf or a new race of night elf. Just like every time they refer to night elf, they sometimes say Elf and they sometimes say humanoid.

When the hell did I admit I don't read what you say in the context of this argument? I only said I don't follow your posts when you mentioned a post of yours you made somewhere else. And do explain how this is supposedly my logic. Go on, humor me. Because the idea that it's anyone's logic was bullshit when Mace mentioned it previously, it was bullshit the other times you did mention it. Guess what, Chronicle also didn't outright say Elves aren't actually a type of Kobolds. Whoopty doo, they must be then. And considering that "descriptive night elves" and "elves of the night" still remain unsourced, there is only one race of Night Elves and it is *gasp* the Night Elves. There being multiple races of night elves in not represented in WoW whatsoever. This is just as illogical as "Nightborne -> Nightborne Elves -> Night Elves" or "Highborne -> Nightborne".

But you continue to refuse to see what is been said and how it is been said, and don't fully read what I say and somehow feel you are qualifying yourself to argue against what I'm saying, when you're not even reading it.

You can repeat the lie that I'm not reading what you say all you want, want make it any more true than your lie about Nightborne. What you're saying is wrong. I'm not sure how more straightforward I can make it to be, but I guess I lack in ENGLISH PROFICIENCY once again. Here, I'll try it this way: your entire narrative rests on "elves of the night" being a taxonomic group existing and respected in WoW lore and meaning more than just Kaldorei. This has no sources whatsoever and never had any. As such, it's blatant headcanon together with any narrative you construct with this as your basis. Super complicated.

No Mehrunes, I'm not trying to force anything, I made use of term that seemed a better way to convey what I was saying to you. When you weren't getting it, I used it a few times as well as other terms (as I wrote previously), if that is forcing in your book then guilty, but it isn't forcing, refusing to accept your narrative and giving your the benefit of the doubt by offering an explanation is not forcing, it's actually trying to have a discussion with you and explain something to you. But I see only hostility, sarcasm and condescenion in return.. why? because I don't agree with you? because I see it differently? because I bother to explain it to you? Is this your usual behaviour?

Considering that you conjured that term up, I'm not sure what the hell made you think it conveys anything other than the idea you make things up. The thing is, the same applies to "descriptive night elves" and all the other angles you tried to use to make Nightborne Night Elves that aren't Night Elves. And is posting headcanon that goes against established lore that's right in your eyes your usual behavior? Oh, yes, yes it is. It's most of your posting history. You fixate on one made up thing about Night Elves, post about it for half a year and then when you have even more sources popping up to disprove you or just can't take people pointing out that it's fanfiction anymore you throw a tantrum and then return after a short break with something else you pulled out of the void. And repeating the same trite nonsense that's "right here maaaannn" isn't "explaining".

I'm talking about the night elvenness of the nightborne, I'm not talking about the nightborne being the same race as the night elves. You keep saying that as if I'm trying to say the Nightborne are the current Kal'dorei night elven race.

Considering that Kaldorei are the only Night Elves in WoW there's no difference other than the one you're trying to force. One way or another, this is incorrect. And no, Shen'dralar in Cata prove nothing.

That's not what I'm saying, I mentioned that way back when this all started - the proceeded to describe what I had observed. My observations were based on what I saw, and I heard. I keep telling you, I'm not referring to the genetic race. When I say the Nightborne night elves or the Nightborne are night elves, I'm not saying the Nightborne are the same race as the Kal'dorei ... that's not what I mean, you keep returning to this, and now you have a couple of other people thinking that is what I might be saying. Fortunately I do check and I'm able to explain to them what I'm saying, which they seem to get. Why do you keep coming back to this. It makes me think you either have a problem with me or have some weird thing about the Nightborne not having anything to do with Night elves and it's a major issue for you, because I can't understand why you keep coming back.

I know you're not referring to genetic race. The thing is, you're referring to something that doesn't exist and there is no other usage of Night Elves than the genetic race. And yes, once more it's me having an issue with Nightborne having a connection with the Night Elves. Totally not you trying to make the connection larger than it already is because (by your own admission) you no longer like the actual Night Elves, yet you need to have a substitute available since Night Elves are like nicotine for you.

I'm describing an observation, not quoting the in-game nightborne. The Highborne never once called themselves Night elves, nor do the Nightborne. In fact I recall the term nightborne used only once, Shal'dorei is the word that is use. I think that's to do with their society as others have commented. The proof is not in the terms they use to identify themselves, they identify themselves as who they are. Quel'dorei always call themselves Highborne or the Quel'dorei, Night Elves always call themselves Kal'dorei or the Night Elves, Nightborne always call themselves Shal'dorei or the Nightborne... that they are elves of the night or night elves, is clear for you to see.

What is clear to me is that "elves of the night" has no sources whatsoever when it comes to it being used in WoW lore. And there there are multiple usages of the term Nightborne in-game. Besides, you said earlier they do consider themselves Night Elves. Good job changing your tune I guess.

They all part of what is described to us in WotA or told and shown to us in Suramar legion as the ancient Night elven empire. When you observe them they are darker, more night based, more Night Elven symbology in Suramar their city, their models, their mounts, they seem the arcane version of the nature night elves, not the same, but the arcane version of it, and when you are finally revealed their history, you are told they are the Night elves of Suramar themselves that have been changed to this appearance, and you're told why, the Nightwell changed them over time, their society, their city, has continued unchanged, still the Night elven city and culture it was way back in the pre-sundering times.

Their society did change because it needed to adjust for them becoming completely dependent on magic, but still, culture does not make a race. And Dath'remar's people were part of the Night Elven empire too. Aren't anymore. Same for Naga. Could be because they changed. Could be because the Night Elven empire went up and died.

And as others have said, they just seem even more night based, more night elven than the current night elves. Yes they are a new race, yes they are changed from Night elves, but to something even more night elven than what we know as night elves.

Again, Mace isn't multiple people. And Nighborne being more buttery than butter makes no sense.

In the Highborne and High Elf - High is the descriptive and defining word that defines the type of Elf, they don't have to be the genetic night elf race to qualify there, the game makes this clear. And you find out in this case Quel'dorei can be both night elf and high elf and we also find that highborne can be naga and they're not even elves. You know by what the game shows you. It shows you the "Highs" as being of noble birth, and shows you the Highborne night elves that continued to become High elves keeping the tag Quel'dorei, you dont dispute they are both Quel'dorei, the Highborne are a High Elf - high elf not as in High Elf race <<insert picture of a high elf>> but high elf as in an elf of high standing or high birth or officially noble birth. In the case of Nightborne and Night Elf, Night is defining word there. Nightborne elf and Night elf - they are elves of the night, or night elves, and they don't have to state that, you see it. Even though the Nightborne are not night elf race exactly genetically, they are still night elves, the elves continue on night based, night elf culture, they are night elves, just not the Night Elf genetically.

What do you mean Naga aren't Elves? Did the Chronicles state that specifically? Because if not, we're free to fill the gaps with whatever we fancy, no? Oh, wait, my bad, it's filling the gaps with "obvious truths". But yay, Blood Elves are still Highborne Night Elves confirmed. Finally. And Highborne referring to themselves as high elves isn't really a thing, but I suppose it exists in the same place as the source for descriptive night elves, descriptive high elves and elves of the night.

Who do you think Elisande was referring to when she mentioned Quel'dorei in her speech? the high elves or the highborne?

Considering that Highborne aren't present, yet High Elves are that and she outright says High Elves, you tell me.

And please don't come back saying I write too much so you can't be bothered to read, and claim I am not answering the questions you've asked ten times because you couldn't be bothered to read my walls of text that became walls of text because I was explaining to you, not just a little bit, but a lot, in multiple ways so you couldn't possibly miss it.

Considering that you pulled me complaining about walls of texts I can't be bothered to read out of an ass (descriptive ass, no doubt, maybe with a capital Ş being the second letter), sure thing I guess? Also, look at all the answers for my queries for sources of descriptive anything, elves of the night being a thing or for Nightborne that consider themselves Night Elves and supposedly exist somewhere. Whole whooping zero of them. Although yes, I suppose in a way I couldn't miss something that doesn't exist.

Finally Mehrunes: Do you not think it is time to move on? Here's what the forum moderator wrote: I think you should just move on

It is easy to understand.

It is easy to understand indeed. It's also not a mod warning.

Mehrunes, you're what people where I come from refer to as a "RED HERRING". You don't seem interested in truth or in discussion, just in proving your point no matter the cost and having the last word. I bet you're never wrong in your own eyes.

I swear I just said in the very post you quoted this is false. And yet here I am seeing you repeat this falsehood once more. What happened to your ENGLISH PROFICIENCY? And the people where you come from seem to use "RED HERRING" wrong.

I don't think it's beneficial going over any more arguments with you. You mention the irony in my statements, but blind to the ones in yours, or maybe you do spot the irony in what you say, but try to turn it around.

For there to be irony about my handling of sources like I said about yours, you'd have to provide them. But you just said you're only going to provide them after I do, so there's some temporal problem with your new and exciting angle here. Your ENGLISH PROFICIENCY doesn't seem to be super proficient today.

You actually attack a person rather than the argument - as if to prove a point.

I attacked your argument over and over again but don't let facts interrupt your feels. You don't let them interrupt your narrative about Nightborne either, after all.

Listen, I have nothing new to add here, all the answers to the questions you asking have been provided for you.

Really? Where are the answers for my question of a source of "elves of the night" being a terminology used in Warcraft? Where are answers for me queries about any Nightborne that considers themself a Night Elf in game or elsewhere? For someone with such amazing MASTERY OF ENGLISH you have rather poor understanding of the word "all". Or "answers", for that matter. And you had nothing new to add after first thread, you're only repeating yourself since then.

Long since qualified my statements with numerous explanations and versions including the sources of them.

Totally That's why "elves of the night" still remain unsourced on WoWPedia, why "night elves is just a moniker used by humans and dwarves who were used to non-diurial elves" makes Cenarius a Dwarf or a human, why "there's 'night' in 'Nightborne'" has no logical sense and makes various things Night Elves and makes Shen'dralar Thalassian. So on and so forth.

If you want to discount official sources as human error, or human nature mistakes, if you want to twist what the lore source says to prove your point which is not being disputed which is what I find incredulous and conveniently fail to respond to a rebuttal directly but instead draw attention to made up character accusations, use aggressive and distasteful language to do so also, and think that I should continue to indulge your vendetta and respond to you? My answers, discussion, thoughts, opinions, observations, are all there.

I said human error is only one possibility. I also said different intent behind the wording could be one, Zulkhan interpreted it that way after all. Either way, I didn't discount it over that. I discounted it because it's older source than Suramar cinematic and Dungeon Journal. Suramar cinematic and Dungeon Journal that once again say how Nightborne were altered by the Nightwell, repeating Chronicle lore (which does give some credibility to the idea of human error, but again, it's just one of the possibilities). Newer lore trumps older lore. You've got nothing

And what character accusations? The numerous once you've made, vide the beginning of this post? And try to force them so that you don't have to defend your actual argument even after they've been denied? Because I've only said you're writing fanfiction, which you haven't provided evidence to the contrary, that you've written fanfiction about Night Elves and tried to push that as actual lore in the past already, which you confirmed and that you're the user Springer06 on WoWPedia, which is self evident by the same arguments, wording, spelling and everything else (and isn't particularly accusing).

But 3rd time now, if you want to carry this on, feel free to private message me, but stop sour graping this entire thread, notice your responses dude, you've been mouthing and rudely too with condescension and derision specifically at me, alot through this thread. No provocation was given you, you were invited to calm down, also invited to carry on in private, also pointed out to stop arguing about opinions, so this topic can continue, but you're behaving like a dog with a bone, you just can't let go. I think you should stop man, I'm not going to ask again. QUIT it, NOW !!

If I consider your narrative fanfiction that does not belong on lore forum, then why exactly would I clog my PM box with it? And you have no authority whatsoever to tell me to QUIT anything, be it NOW !! or at any other point in time, so let me play the world's smallest violin for you in response to this. Alternatively you can cry me a river, in which case I'll even help you dig a ditch you can fill with your tears of the night. And by help I mean show you a picture of what a ditch is supposed to look like. You know, descriptive help. And you've been saying how this supposed truth is obvious to anyone who can read English because there's "night" in Nightborne (which effectively makes Shen'dralar High Elves; Nightborne too because Highborne -> Nightborne was yet another "proof" of yours) since three or four threads ago is totes not rude or condescending.

[Enthralled]

If the bit in Chronicles that outright says they became a new race didn't do that, Metzen himself could announce his return to make a whole expansion about them being different races and they'd still stay in their fanfiction bubble.

LMAO. You crack me up so much, man, but in a good way. I haven't been able to follow this discussion as closely as I'd liked, but you have a good point here. I will send no tweet.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly, the elf junkies that do the Aszuna line and the tailoring line I like. The Suramar elves I'd rather watch their city burn. They annoy me.

Are you talking about the ghost night elves in Azsuna, Prince Farondis' people? They aren't junkies, just cursed into a state of undeath because Farondis stood up to Azshara back in the day.
Edit: Never mind, Aucald helped me figure it out. Runas and the tailoring NPC that I haven't encountered.

[Rhlor]

the kaldorei are not nocturnal, as part of the alliance are now daytime for 15 years

[Aucald]

Are you talking about the ghost night elves in Azsuna, Prince Farondis' people? They aren't junkies, just cursed into a state of undeath because Farondis stood up to Azshara back in the day.

I believe he's referring to Runas the Shamed and the Tailoring NPC you take back with you to Dalaran, both of whom are rather comedic Nightfallen with some obvious mana-abuse problems.

[Enthralled]

I believe he's referring to Runas the Shamed and the Tailoring NPC you take back with you to Dalaran, both of whom are rather comedic Nightfallen with some obvious mana-abuse problems.

Oh yes, Runas. One of the best characters ever.
And I don't have a tailoring character, so that explains that.

[Mehrunes]

I believe he's referring to Runas the Shamed and the Tailoring NPC you take back with you to Dalaran, both of whom are rather comedic Nightfallen with some obvious mana-abuse problems.

Just finished his questline yesterday, the bit where he's imprisoned in Violet Hold. Poor Lyndras. The next bit of the Tailoring questline had top notch attention to detail though. The BElf girl from Dalaran sends you to Suramar city but says you'll need a disguise because the tailors are loyalists (in fact, they use three Inquisitors to imbue their cloth) so you need to have masquerade unlocked (awarded 1k ancient mana so that was quite nice actually). You go to Suramar, the quest giver tells you to kill tons of Wretched because you affiliated yourself with Lyndras and you need to prove your purity and after that they allow you to port to the upper floor where you learn about the Inquisitors. And this is where the attention to detail comes in - the Nightborne girl you speak to greets you with this: "So you're the undead Warlock that they spoke about" (well, <insert race here> <insert class here> is more like it). That disguise worked wonders.

[Zulkhan]

You simply can't comprehend the holy wisdom because you're cruel and vindictive IRL like Trolls. Dark Trolls even, because your heart is so black. You could be saved by transforming into a noble Night Elf. But you can't, because while the first of transforming into a nocturnal being would be doable, you'd need blessing of Elune to transform from that intermediary step into an actual Night Elf (on the other hand everything is Night Elf recently so you can pretend I guess).

I'll just cancel "Dark" and put "Night" before "Troll" and aww yiss, totally Night Elf I'll be.

Wasn't it till Alleria is found?

Uhm yeah, she says something about keeping the bow until Alleria's return, but also clarifying that its purpose would be defeating the Legion. So a mix of both, in a way. Of course, one would assume Alleria would return before the Legion is ultimately defeated.

But anyway, the matter doesn't change much. Someone between Vereesa and Alleria is expected to ask that bow back at some point.

I said human error is only one possibility. I also said different intent behind the wording could be one, Zulhan interpreted it that way after all.

I feel like he's doing the same thing Nightwind/Howling Wind (the Old God fanboy) does in regards of the developers' statements about C'Thun: he takes said statement that is technically WoG but interpreting in the manner most fit to his arguments, ignoring the other possible interpretations. The mere fact that a statement can be interpreted undermines the value they want to weigh on it, matters little if a developer said such things.

Thing is, the uncertainty given by alternative interpretations is normally caused by the lack of additional info supporting any of them. But in this case, Ravenmoon's interpretation is the only one lacking support, which is why mine is more probable; not because is better per se but because there's plenty of lore and information supporting it. In this specific case, the repeatedly confirmed fact that Nightborne =/= Night Elves.

With all of this said, let's talk about the serious matters. Like:

Zulhan

ZULHAN

WHY

[Mehrunes]

I'll just cancel "Dark" and put "Night" before "Troll" and aww yiss, totally Night Elf I'll be.

Racial transformations don't work that way mon. They work as a completely arbitrary clusterfuck that only the chosen ones can comprehend. At best you'll be a descriptive nIgHt Ęłƒ. Wretch'dorei is more likely outcome though.

Uhm yeah, she says something about keeping the bow until Alleria's return, but also clarifying that its purpose would be defeating the Legion. So a mix of both, in a way. Of course, one would assume Alleria would return before the Legion is ultimately defeated.

But anyway, the matter doesn't change much. Someone between Vereesa and Alleria is expected to ask that bow back at some point.

Yeah, I know. And I agree about the expectation of returning the Artifacts that have previous owners that are still alive and on our side is rather weird.

I feel like he's doing the same thing Nightwind/Howling Wind (the Old God fanboy) does in regards of the developers' statements about C'Thun: he takes said statement that is technically WoG but interpreting in the manner most fit to his arguments, ignoring the other possible interpretations. The mere fact that a statement can be interpreted undermines the value they want to weigh on it, matters little if a developer said such things.

Well, it's more than he had in the previous four months of this wonderful adventure, so obviously it's to be latched onto.

Thing is, the uncertainty given by alternative interpretations is normally caused by the lack of additional info supporting any of them. But in this case, Ravenmoon's interpretation is the only one lacking support, which is why mine is more probable; not because is better per se but because there's plenty of lore and information supporting it. In this specific case, the repeatedly confirmed fact that Nightborne =/= Night Elves.

Yeah, as I said the other lore sources fitting the other interpretation more give credibility to either other interpretations or even human error. Alas, whatever way it was meant to be interpreted, there are two newer sources confirming Chronicles lore which is the main problem with that interview. But who'd pay any attention to differences between "could" and "must" when there's much more fascinating difference between Night Elves and night elves, the latter referring to descriptive elves of the night despite neither of these concepts having sources in regards to being used and respected in-lore.

With all of this said, let's talk about the serious matters. Like:

ZULHAN

WHY

The k is, after all, silent. Like "borne" in Nightborne Elves that are Night Elves. But for reals, just a typo, fixed it now.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Alright, I really think for shits and giggles rommath should be a better mage than the nightborne

[Mehrunes]

Which again was the the consequence of their choice to remain under the shield, no one forced them to do this, they chose it.

I personally would have waited a few months or until food almost ran out to look outside.

That reminds me. The questline for Suramar jewelcrafters (not profession quest) ends with a Nighborne woman leading you to a grave of her recently departed husband. The grave is in a cave west of the city. But what she said confused me a bit. Because, from what I recall, she said that she can't afford a burial at Tel'anor. If the shield was up the entire time and they didn't check things outside ever, why would they still carry a 10k year old tradition about a more fancy burial place?

Alright, I really think for shits and giggles rommath should be a better mage than the nightborne

Even better, there should be an arena quest in which you control him and fight other magical opponents from all Elf groups, including Shen'dralar for good measure. With Aethas being the final opponent.

[Rhlor]

Alright, I really think for shits and giggles rommath should be a better mage than the nightborne

remembers when a blood elf destroys a camp of night elf mages in azshara. He said thier magic was obsolete.

[Mace]

Stop dragging me into this totally ridiculous argument. From what I gather.

Mehrunes declares: Night Elf is the a term you should only exlusively use for race that looks like: this.


Ravenmoon is pointing out that night elf is acceptable to use to DESCRIBE if not identify both
officially termed Night Elf (capitals) and Nightborne Elf



Mehrunes thinks that Ravenmoon is saying that this:
= [ .


But that is not what Ravenmoon is saying nor I or anyone else for that matter. Pointing out the Night elvenness of the Nightborne and their very Night elven root/behaviour is NOT saying that
= .

Nor is saying that Nightborne Elves are part of the night elf family, saying that
is which is probably what Mehrunes thinks is being said.

Night Elf is night elven and Nightborne elf is night elven too because of all the night elf lore both are steeped in and shown as. All of Suramar is described as Night elven, the nightborne are shown to be the very ancient night elves themselves, not descendants, this is what makes them night elven, not that they are same race. It is clear that
is NOT .


This is ultimate nerdism, it's not even an argument of who the nightborne should side with or the claim of blood elves or night elves to nightborne or their future, it's as petty as what is technically correct to refer to them as and what Ravenmoon shouldn't dare do, an myself or anyone else, whether on wowpedia or these forums. Mehrunes is behaving rather pettily insisting that you can only refer to or use the term night elf for
and nothing else, even when it is pointed out that night elf is not been used to refer to the name of the race, but describing what they are, elves of the night in some cases and in other cases elves still associated with the Kal'dorei Empire, which is both the Night Elves and the Nightborne Elves as they are still the same generation alive from back then - even though the Kal'dorei have changed their culture. What's interesting is even when the context is explained this fellow is not getting what is being said or refusing, just to be picky. Like saying you can only refer to the gnome as gnome, not the mecha gnome, or the .. then try to force the issue, makes you the antagonist here insisting, and with strong language too that "You can only use the term Night Elf to refer to


And so Ladies and gentlemen, that's what all this stink is about? I happen to agree with Ravenmoon, neither blizzard, nor Ravenmoon is saying:
= and they are the same thing which is what it seems that Mehrunes has been accusing him of saying. What I agree with Ravenmoon here is that
is been shown by blizzard to be very night elven - night based, Kaldorei Empire based whatever you want to call it, this is what it comes across as, and that is not saying
= .


It is saying that
is also night elven.

Moral of the Story:
NEWSFLASH! You can view night elven in more than 1-dimensional way, it can be used to refer to living Kal'dorei, it can be used to refer to thigns related to the Kaldorei Empire, or just to simply say a nocturnal elf, a nightbased elf, or an elf of the night. Who are you to tell him or me or anyone else that only your presentation is valid becuase you can't distinguish between when a word is used to name something and when it is used only as a description. Saying "night elf" is not exclusive to identifying Kal'dorei past or present you know, if I used that in an ESO forum or in a LOTR discussion, no one will think of a people group, they'll think i mean an elf of the night or night related/based somehow. But in your eyes, only your interpretation is correct, worse, to you, blizzard only endorses that designation, like they don't use Night Elf when referring to the ancient Kaldorei empire, or all Elves before the sundeirng. Pointless of pointless.

Just because
is not , therefore you can't even be bothered to check the context the person you are disputing with is speaking in and take that onboard - that comes across as avery arrogant and very petty. It is such an idiotic argument to say "hey, t is not T - look the symbols are different" ... Yes, we can clearly see that.. but they're from the same root. It's like modern day Italy, the Nightborne Roman to the Night elven Italian.

Totally That's why "elves of the night" still remain unsourced on WoWPedia, why "night elves is just a moniker used by humans and dwarves who were used to non-diurial elves" makes Cenarius a Dwarf or a human, why "there's 'night' in 'Nightborne'" has no logical sense and makes various things Night Elves and makes Shen'dralar Thalassian. So on and so forth.

Actually I'm the person that first used the phrase elf of the night not as a designated term, but describing nocturnal elves in WoW on other forums as early as Feb/March 2016 on testing forums and others like Ravenmoon may or may not have read, and it would be silly to think that me or him or anyone else invented the term or it is somehow exclusive, given that it is used to describe what night elf means, not coining a new term or specifically referring to one people group. I've seen the term used by other people on this forum, before I first saw it used by Ravenmoon, and unless you can claim to read every topic and every post on every wow forum, that is a silly thing to say. But I wouldn't be surprised if Ravenmoon does do that for Night elf posts - are you that much of a fan? The guy lives and breathes night elves. I'm just surprised he still bothers to respond to you.

[Aucald]

This thread is running dangerously close to closure. Clean this argument up before that occurs.

[Rhlor]

the saldorei and kaldorei are culturally different. the saldorei is all about living in the big city and magic. the kaldorei is living in the forests and trees.
shendelar return that does not change the fact that they are marginalized in society and they have to accept the dominant culture of tree culture.
plus for years the kaldorei are diurnal and heavily influenced by humans I see many night elves now part of the Kirin Tor and use Stormwind armor among many other things of human influence

- - - Updated - - -

lothrius is the kaldorei most culturally similar to shaldorei, because he lived in the closest thing which had to a mage city (Moon Guard Stronghold). who he prefers to speak to their congeners tree culture? or their cousins mage culture? where he like to go to the city tree or the city where there libraries full of magical knowledge?

I want all the elves are together and create together a new elven nation where all this diversity can be contained

[Mehrunes]

Stop dragging me into your silly arguement. From what I gather.
Mehrunes declares Night Elf is the a term you should only exlusively use for race that looks like this. <Night Elf>

Because that's the only thing that has been described as Night Elves in lore. Imagine that, words mean things. Names even more so. Who would have thought. Apparently, not the people suffering from ENGLISH PROFICIENCY that allows them to see things that the untrained eye cannot.

Ravenmoon is pointing out that night elf is acceptable to use to DESCRIBE both this
<Night Elf> officially termed Night Elf (capitals) and this <Nightborne> Nightborne Elf

They are officially termed without capitals actually. And ravenmoon has no sources whatsoever for it being acceptable.

Mehrunes is saying that Ravenmoon is saying that this:
<Night Elf> = <Nightborne>.

Except I'm not. What a mighty coincidence both of you happen to either misread things the exact same way or straw-man me the exact same way.

But that is not what Ravenmoon or myself is saying at all. Pointing out the Night elvenness of the Nightborne and their very Night elven root/behaviour is NOT saying that this <Night Elf> = <Nightborne> . Nor is saying that Nightborne Elves are part of the night elf family, saying that <Night Elf> is this <Nightborne>.

Yes, yes. They are different in capital letters but same in small letters. The small letters part is bogus though, just as is the concept of "Night elvenness" (why is only N capital letter here, is there third kind of Night Elves now?), which is the issue here.

Night Elf is night elven and Nightborne elf is night elven too because of what they are shown to be in-game/lore, but <Night Elf> is NOT a this <Nightborne>.

We haven't been shown they are Night Elven.

This is so silly, Mehrunes is being pedantic you can only refer to or use the term night elf for <Night Elf> and nothing else.

Again, names mean things. For someone going on descriptiveness of things I'm not exactly sure how that is new information for you.

Like saying you can only refer to the gnome as gnome, not the mecha gnome.

Yes, Gnomes are organic race, Mechagnomes are not. I'm not sure what about this concept eludes you but it continues being a poor example for the third time you used it. Gnomes and Grummles aren't the same either, despite both being "descriptive" midgets.

"You can only use the term Night Elf to refer to this" and that's what all this stink is about?

Who would have guessed, people don't like headcanon on lore forum, just like they didn't like his previous headcanon about there being an intermediary step between Dark Trolls and Night Elves.

I happen to agree with Ravenmoon.

What a surprise, the person that agrees with ravenmoon on everything Night Elf and used the exact same arguments as he does continues doing so.

It seems that's what you've been accusing him of saying.

I have trouble believing that it's what it seems I have been accusing him of saying when I said the opposite in the same post you quoted. Just like ravenmoon just so happens not to see those parts in my posts. What a coincidence.

You can view night elven in more than 1-dimensional way. Who are you to tell him or me or anyone else that they can't have their views, only yours is valid becuase you mistake what they are saying or just don't like it.

Iunno, lack of sources for "elves of the night" sounds like a pretty valid reason to tell someone their idea that "elves of the night" actually is a term in WoW is wrong.

Just because <Night Elf> is not <Nightborne>, therefore you can't even check the context and view that is being expressed.

I can check the context just fine. The context does this argument no favors.

It is such an idiotic argument "t is not T - look the symbols are different" ... Yes, we can clearly see that.. but they're from the same root.

If this is an attempt at comparison it's just atrocious logic then. Then again given that the arguments in favor of Nightborne being Night Elves rely on more of that, it's no wonder.

It's like modern day Italy, the Nightborne Roman to the Night elven Italian.

And Italy isn't Rome. There are even less similarities between Italy and Rome than between Night Elves and Nightborne. Once again shooting yourself in the foot with your own examples.

Actually I'm the person that first used the term Elf of the night, on other forums as early as Feb/March 2016 on testing forums and others Ravenmoon may or may not have read, and it would be silly to think that me or him or anyone else invented the term or somehow exclusive, given that it is used to describe what night elf means, not coining a new term.

If it just describes what exist in lore then why isn't there a source of the term existing in lore?

I've seen the term used by other people on this forum, before I first saw it used by Ravenmoon, and unless you can claim to read every topic and every post on every wow forum, that is a silly thing to say. But I wouldn't be surprised if Ravenmoon does do that for Night elf posts - are you that much of a fan? The guy lives and breathes night elves. I'm just surprised he still bothers to respond to you.

I'm not sure what's this supposed to mean or how it addressed what you quoted. How is other people using it before ravenmoon handwave away the lack of sources for the mentions of this term on WoWPedia? But yes, I'm surprised too. He tends to put people that trigger him by pointing the fanfiction status of his fanfiction on ignore. Like he did with Zulkhan during the "intermediary step between Dark Trolls and Night Elves" of his enlightenment and only bothered to respond him to call him "a vengeful Troll IRL".

This thread is running dangerously close to closure. Clean this argument up before that occurs.

Apologies. That last post has been sitting in an advanced posting window for quite some time and I've been writing in an on again, off again manner while preparing dinner, and I haven't checked the thread for updates in the meantime. Feel free to delete it.

[Raetary]

Just finished his questline yesterday, the bit where he's imprisoned in Violet Hold. Poor Lyndras.

i still dont get why lyndras didnt just ask us to get some ancient mana for him.
or that we didnt act immediately... i mean, it was hellish obvious from the beginning on that this guy was struggling.

[Mehrunes]

i still dont get why lyndras didnt just ask us to get some ancient mana for him.
or that we didnt act immediately... i mean, it was hellish obvious from the beginning on that this guy was struggling.

Yeah, especially after you've quested in just Azsuna, let alone Suramar. Not to mention the Blood Elf tailor awards you 1k Ancient Mana in the very next quest. Or went to the nearby enchanting shop to buy magic dust.