Protection legion Discussion

[celinamuna]

Btw, fun (not really) math thingy :
The value of versatility relative to the value of strength depends on three things: The amount of strength you have; the amount of versatility you have; and the amount of damage you are taking before mitigation. The more strength you have, the more versatility increases Ignore Pain by. The more versatility you have, the less damage you take after mitigation. The more damage you take before mitigation, the more damage you take after mitigation.

To calculate the value of 1 str relative to 1 vers:

Where ‘str’ is ‘amount of strength’, and ‘vers’ is ‘multiplying factor for versatility’

Formula for 60 rage Ignore Pain with Indomitable: 28*1.25*str*vers

Value of str per point per ignore pain = 28*1.25*vers

Value of vers per 1% vers per ignore pain = 28*1.25*str*(1/100)
Value of vers per point per ignore pain = 28*1.25*str*(1/100)*(1/400)

Value of str per ignore pain – value of vers per ignore pain = (28*1.25*vers) - (28*1.25*str*(1/100)*(1/400))

At 1 ignore pain per roughly 10 seconds from logs:

Value of str per second – value of vers per second = ((28*1.25*vers) - (28*1.25*str*(1/100)*(1/400)))/10

Amount of DTPS mitigated by 1 point of vers = DTPS*0.01/800

Where the damage mitigated by vers is greater than the difference between the amount of Ignore Pain generated by 1 point of str and the amount generated by 1 point of vers, vers is better than str.

Alternatively put, if the following expression is true, vers is better than str:

DTPS*0.01/800 > ((28*1.25*vers) - (28*1.25*str*(1/100)*(1/400)))/10
Or
DTPS > (((28*1.25*vers) - (28*1.25*str*(1/100)*(1/400)))/10)/(0.01/800)

This simplifies to:

DTPS > 8000(35vers – 0.000875str)

So if that is true, with your str and vers levels, then vers is more valuable than str for you.

For example, at 20k str and 10% vers, vers is better than str when you are taking 168k DTPS or higher. This is a very low number.

At 20k str and 20% vers, vers is better than str when you are taking 196k DTPs or higher. This is higher than the above, but still very low! As such, it seems that vers will likely always be better than str per point in content that might be even remotely dangerous.

Do note, that this is looking at more of current values, and not accounting for the nerf that will come next tuesday (due to lower rage gen) which will make vers even better.

[Deleted]

RIP Vengeance

FR+IP combo now costs 58,5 rage. Its more or less only a DPS increase without a Ultimatum proc.

But to be honest. I am not even sad about this chance, because this combo was way to strong in comparison to the other 4 talents. I played with these 2 talents since i hit 110 and probably had not chanced this until 8.0

The interesting questing is how the 15 to 10 rage per shield slam and 20 to 10 intercept nerf changes our rotation. We are sacrificing rage for a higher shield block uptime and potional Ultimatum procs, by spamming the s**t out of devastate. Now we sacrifice even more rage by almost ignoring revenge, get less rage from intercept and have a higher IP cost thanks to the Vengeance nerf.

[Deleted]

Well... I usually jump to conclusions and am in no way an expert, but those changes look like prot warrior is now a liability when raiding/doing M+ ... we will require A LOT more healing pretty much without any our own way to help with this - I really think that this will be reverted at least a bit some time in the future when Mythic raiding logs start to come and warriors are destroyed by bosses.

[Pachulius]

Well... I usually jump to conclusions and am in no way an expert, but those changes look like prot warrior is now a liability when raiding/doing M+ ... we will require A LOT more healing pretty much without any our own way to help with this - I really think that this will be reverted at least a bit some time in the future when Mythic raiding logs start to come and warriors are destroyed by bosses.

I think/hope we will be fine Mythic bosses hit hard so lets hope RDFT works in our favor there.

[Deleted]

Well... I usually jump to conclusions and am in no way an expert, but those changes look like prot warrior is now a liability when raiding/doing M+ ... we will require A LOT more healing pretty much without any our own way to help with this - I really think that this will be reverted at least a bit some time in the future when Mythic raiding logs start to come and warriors are destroyed by bosses.

Tanks will NOT get buffed.

See Brewmaster and BDK.

[Valkaneer]

Why do people keep trying.

Trying what? Looks like you have no idea what I was referring to, must of just looked at the last page and ignored the conversation that was going on. Pro tip, read more than one page.

- - - Updated - - -

Tanks will NOT get buffed.

See Brewmaster and BDK.

Blood always gets buffed, they'er like mages and have been on top at the end of the xpac since WotLK.

[Kueson]

The only thing I could think of after these changes.

ಠ_ಠ

Intolerance, formerly a minor annoyance that at least has niche use, now a 3 point void where your artifact power investment never sees the light of day.

#blizzardlogic

[Alaexaender]

Snip

Interesting, thanks. Only issue is you didn't include mastery's effect on IP, but not sure how much this would affect it.

[celinamuna]

Interesting, thanks. Only issue is you didn't include mastery's effect on IP, but not sure how much this would affect it.

Mastery doesn't affect our calculations, as both of the values will benefit equally from it.

[Alaexaender]

Mastery doesn't affect our calculations, as both of the values will benefit equally from it.

My bad, was being stupid.

[AanvilGT]

Mastery doesn't affect our calculations, as both of the values will benefit equally from it.

They will both go up the same percentage. But as the Strength number is higher, it will go up more. So the strengthIP - versIP will be a bigger number and the comparative value of Strength will be higher. If A-B=C then Ax-Bx=Cx. Basically, if you have 40% mastery then the value of strengthIP-versIP will be 40% higher.

You will also have to include Dragon Scales and Dragon Skin. Strength also contributes a small amount of parry, while vengeance reduces RFDT by a not-insignificant amount. Then you just plucked /10 out of the air because it's a round number. It could easily have been 8 or 12, and either way makes a big difference. Finally, you need to make sure that you are comparing the result to DTPS after mitigation, not before. It's an interesting approach, but it needs to be refined.

[Sorbocles]

With the upcoming change to vengeance, does Renewed Fury/Into the Fray overtake the Ultimatum/Vengeance combo in mythic+ dungeons? I've been using the latter in both raids and 5mans, but it now seems to be strictly a single target damage increase rather than a rage-saver (unless you get an ultimatum proc), but I'm no expert.

[Dralas]

Alright so I have a question regarding the upcoming changes. Since rage generation is being targeted, would that mean stat priorities are being shifted? I had a bit of an idea to try and bring back some rage that I would be losing.

Currently I don't feel like I have rage problems unless I'm not actively tanking or not being hit hard (so waiting to swap with the other tank or just questing respectively). I made an entire set of crafted gear that is currently Versatility > Mastery oriented.

I can't post any links due to the website's restriction and I'm relatively new to posting around here, so here are my stats (look up Draalas - Kel'Thuzad on the WoW armory if you want to see it in more depth):

iLvl: 855

- Strength: 23,013
- Stamina: 44,476
- Armor: 5780

- Critical Strike: 10%
- Mastery: 49%
- Versatility: 24%
- Dodge: 3%
- Parry: 13%
- Block: 30%
- Legendary Gloves

I have literally no haste anywhere in my gear, and I don't feel like I have rage problems. I have the ultimatum + vengeance combo as well and I usually have decent shield block uptime (not anywhere near 100% though, I'd figure about 70%). Additional note: I just received the legendary protection gloves today. So with that in mind, is it possible to shift towards another setup for rage generation? My idea was along these lines:

- Legendary Gloves
- Haste > Mastery setup
- All 3 Artifact relic Gems setup for Shatter the Bones
- Keep Vengeance + Ultimatum combo

My idea behind this is that with more haste, it would mean more usage of shield slam and revenge for rage generation. Coupled with the gloves this goes up further. If all three relic gems were targeted towards Shatter the Bones, this would give shield slam a 30% chance to crit just from having shield block up alone. Throw in the crit from artifact weapons and any random crit you may have and it'll be at least 35% chance to crit. If haste was stacked heavily, 100% shield block up time would be easily achievable, and this would lead to ultimatum procs much more frequently.

This all leads to still keeping vengeance; with much more ultimatum procs, this would allow "free" Ignore Pain reduction shields. With easily 100% shield block uptime and a minimum of 35% chance to crit with shield block, this wouldn't be too terribly hard to ride off of. The reason I ask though about everyone else's opinions on this is because of a few reasons.

1) Obviously a lot of this is cherry picking. You'd need the legendary gloves to drop in this scenario to help.
2) You'd need to have your gear setup with enough haste to reach the shield block 100% uptime.
3) You'd need to have the 3 relics all be in Shatter the Bones.
4) And this is the main reason to be honest; I don't have any simulators, nor do I know how to even begin to use one. I am aware that you would have to measure this scenario vs others and can't simply say 'this sounds like a good idea.'
Edit: 5) Also to consider the RFDT model.

I know that this scenario is a bit cherry-picked, but what's the opinion on something like this? Is there a reason we couldn't begin pushing towards a Haste > Mastery oriented setup instead of the Vers > Mastery or the Haste > Vers builds we've been seeing being proposed? For those wondering why I wanted to push for Haste > Mastery instead of Haste > Vers, I am considering the tier set bonus that we would receive come 7.1 raid, along with if we have 100% shield block uptime, why not pushing it for more critical blocks.

Edit: Added the RFDT bit. We actually generate a large amount of rage from that, that's a big factor I forgot to mention.

[Valkaneer]

Why do people keep trying.

Also due to the changes do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stop this.

https://www.twitch.tv/slootbag/v/90896283 Go to 6:28:30 and you will see why IP is certainly going to take another heavy nerf of some sort.

[Zoldor]

Also due to the changes do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stop this.

https://www.twitch.tv/slootbag/v/90896283 Go to 6:28:30 and you will see why IP is certainly going to take another heavy nerf of some sort.

Is that an IP problem or a problem with gaining rage from damage on a stacking buff in a very specific set of circumstances. If he wasn't gaining tons of rage while taking the debuff IP wouldn't be able to do anything. They either rework IP from the ground up, or they fix the rage gain. And like someone on his stream said, and then in Mythic you die. He's fairly well geared and its a pretty finite set of circumstances that make what he did possible.

But yeah, IP has some issues, but what is the solution? The "lol nerf it solution" isn't exactly going to change much without crushing the class. As times where you aren't taking damage then jump in to eat a spike is going to be a problem with the current changes. It is interesting to see what will happen, but Sloots example doesn't prompt me to think IP is the issue as much as endless rage to then spam IP is the issue. Simple fix that would have fucked him there is IP stacks only twice maybe, but the rage generation in a perfect storm ie it not hitting you all at once but ramping up, yes IP will have no problem blocking it. If he got hit out the gate for the amount of 89 stacks IP wouldn't have saved him, it was the ramping up that allowed him to insane sack the IP.

[Valkaneer]

Is that an IP problem or a problem with gaining rage from damage on a stacking buff in a very specific set of circumstances. If he wasn't gaining tons of rage while taking the debuff IP wouldn't be able to do anything. They either rework IP from the ground up, or they fix the rage gain. And like someone on his stream said, and then in Mythic you die. He's fairly well geared and its a pretty finite set of circumstances that make what he did possible.

But yeah, IP has some issues, but what is the solution? The "lol nerf it solution" isn't exactly going to change much without crushing the class. As times where you aren't taking damage then jump in to eat a spike is going to be a problem with the current changes. It is interesting to see what will happen, but Sloots example doesn't prompt me to think IP is the issue as much as endless rage to then spam IP is the issue. Simple fix that would have fucked him there is IP stacks only twice maybe, but the rage generation in a perfect storm ie it not hitting you all at once but ramping up, yes IP will have no problem blocking it. If he got hit out the gate for the amount of 89 stacks IP wouldn't have saved him, it was the ramping up that allowed him to insane sack the IP.

Any change in the negative is going to be looked at as a nerf. I suspect a possible CD might be added to IP, or a reduction of rage gained from damage taken while under the IP buff. Anything at all is going to be called a nerf.

[Anuibus]

I don't know how accurate protection sims are, but it seems crit is super junk

[Valkaneer]

I don't know how accurate protection sims are, but it seems crit is super junk

Crit has been junk for all of Legion.

[Krakozjubr]

Guys... i've been reading forums for the last day and i got a feeling that i'm an idiot and totally stuck in WoD days. Please help me out here.

I went with haste build and used playstile of "maximum shield block uptime and all exsessive rage goes into IP". However, after reading forums / carefully going through warcraft logs etc. i realize that this is far from an optimal route. People writing about taking 80 stacks on Cenarius just for giggles, tanking all spiders with bird boss at the same time and so on.

So, what's the correct way to play right now? Going versatility/mastery instead of haste with Ultimatum/Vengeance and just using all rage for IP through FR procs (e.g. popping FR every time it's available)? I mean - is our priority now to keep maximum uptime on IP bubble and keep shield block totally secondary?

I also understand that community still haven't reached a consensus after Vengeance nerf? Are we going away from Vengeance now or not... there are a lot of contradictory posts on this forum

All help will be much appreciated.

[Deleted]

Krakozjubr.
Generally haste is not the best stats (not sure why people keep writing that).
The easiest and best way to determine what statistics you want is doing a sim for your character. https://simulationcraft.org/
It will give you some understanding what stats are good for what situation (dps/survivability/smooth tanking).

I would recommend PAWN addon to insert your values ingame. Remember to rerun sim after major gear changes.